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 What makes it Country? (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: What makes it Country? |
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John Ummel Member From: Arlington, WA. |
posted 21 November 2005 06:42 AM
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OK guys, Quite a bit of discussion lately about the CMA's and how certain artists are NOT "Country" etc. Its got me thinking, What makes an artist or a song "Country"? I have my opinion and I'd like to hear other's. I kinda break it into sections: 1) Musical content, major pentatonics, clean tones, if I hear distorted power chords and rippin blues scales it doesn't sound country to me. 2) Lyrical content, Seems like anything is fair game now, but I once had the impression that "country" meant "down home". I remember Merle's "Big City". Some expression there of wanting back to simple "country" life. 3) Instrumentation, can it be "Country" w/o fiddle & steel? How much synth & midi until the country soul is strangled out of the music? 4) Attire, Are hats & boots obligatory? How many times have you seen some young rock guys put on a hat to wiggle into the country market? Should you be flattered or insulted? If I wear a t-shirt and sneakers, can I still be country? 5) Demeanor, And this, I guess is the clincher for me. A country artist should be a Gentleman, on and off stage, its a lifestyle, a basic value. Punk Rockers came along with their message, and I defend their right to that. Johnny Ramone, rest his soul, has a place in music history. But he didn't try to call it country music! Can "Country" artists find a way to sell records (ok CD's) and still maintain something unique and special about "Country Music" without completely being dissolved into "Pop/Rock"..? I really want to know other folks thoughts on it. I don't for one second claim that mine are "correct" or all inclusive...just thinking "out loud"...I personally like lots of different music, but I also think that "Country" should maintain something special, unique. God Bless all you steel pickers out there. You ARE special.  Johnny [This message was edited by John Ummel on 21 November 2005 at 06:45 AM.] |
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John Ummel Member From: Arlington, WA. |
posted 21 November 2005 08:42 AM
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Please let me emphasize that I'm not looking to argue with anyone or make a put down on anyone or anything. I love Country Music ( MY idea of it!) So often I hear..."That ain't Country!"..... OK...what IS Country? |
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Mike Perlowin Member From: Los Angeles CA |
posted 21 November 2005 09:25 AM
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I don't think there's a difinitive answer. Is Johnny Cash's "Ring Of Fire" with it's horns country? Or Boots Randolph's work? Or Ray Charles' for that matter? Or Tenessee Ernie Ford's "16 tons" What about the Eagles? Or the infamous TYC with Jerry Garcia? or the Beatle's version of Act Naturally? or Dylan's Nashville Skyline album? Personally I think there are only 2 kinds of music. Stuff I enjoy listend to, and stuff I don't. Beyond that, I make no distictions. |
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Walter Stettner Member From: Vienna, Austria |
posted 21 November 2005 09:41 AM
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John, you probably have asked the toughest question possibe, a question where there is no "right" answer. Music is an art form, no matter if you talk abou classical, jazz, rock, country, folk...you will always hear different definitions, it is pretty much the same like with painting, writing, architecture...the likes and dislikes as well as the definitions always have been and always will be different. For me personally it was and is always important not to ever downgrade any styles I don't like as being "bad". Yes, I can say I don't like that particular art form or music style, but I can't say it is bad just because I don't like it. On the other hand, I have a hard time with those wide stretched definitions in the globalized music business of today. These definitions are only made to reach a maximum of potential buyers. One result of the globalized world is the dissappearing of the identity of musical styles, everything has to sound the same so you can sell it to people in the U.S. Europe, Asia and so on. That's what happens to country music as well as other musical styles. Sad on one hand, but also a chance for those who create certain niches for those who don't want to follow the main trends. I definitely don't see Bon Jovi as a country band just because they use a steel player on one track and appear at the CMA show. On the other hand, Wilie doesn't change into a major blues artist just because he appears at a major blues festival or award show. Well, you were asking for our personal opinions: My definition of country is a rather simple music (simple doesn't mean primitive, I mean a music that is likely to stick in your ear and mind), played mostly on stringed instruments (of course it can be country w/o steel and fiddle for me!). I never really cared much about the dress attire (how many country steel players at the stel shows wear them?), the personal attitude is a rather down-to-earth one. I have met many artists in person, mostly they were always humble and kind people. This definition is quite open, as said in the beginning, it is hard to describe personal feelings about an art form - making music and listening is stil a great experience! Kind Regards, Walter |
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Joe Miraglia Member From: Panama, New York USA |
posted 21 November 2005 11:13 AM
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Mike, you are so right. If it's played in a city(NYC )is it still country? Does it matter where you are from ,or the artist?If the singer doesn't have a country or southern accent would say it's not country--like someone from Jersey ? I'm happy with the way it is today because we have such a wide variety of choices and not just the generic brand--all the way from Roy Acuff to Cowboy Troy!!! Joe |
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retcop88 unregistered |
posted 21 November 2005 11:22 AM
Mike said it all. |
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P Gleespen Member From: Lakewood, OH USA (I miss Boston!) |
posted 21 November 2005 12:50 PM
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I think Justice Potter Stewart put it best: "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of music I understand to be country...but I know it when I hear it." |
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Terry Edwards Member From: Layton, UT |
posted 21 November 2005 12:58 PM
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If a country singer don't like gravy & biscuits and cornbread & beans then they probably ain't country. I believe it really is that simple. ...and what Mike said. |
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Ron Sodos Member From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA |
posted 21 November 2005 02:03 PM
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I would think the real argument is not whether it is country or not. I think the argument is sincere and insincere. Alot of the music coming from Nashville these days is just garbage. I know for a fact that the accent on some of them is not real. There is an announcer in Albuquerque on the "New Country" radio station who speaks with a twang that is not his. He was taught. "FACT"! Its all about the business and selling twang. I think some of us dislike Garth not beacuse he has no talent "he obviously does" it is his fake yodel. He must have bought it at the drug store. Sincere and uncontrived is what we all love. Not somebody who paid for his acting lessons to learn how to talk with a drawl and learned how to put on a cowboy hat "especially leather", from a personal assistant that taught him/her how to look country. REAL! is what we want not fake. Nashville seems so fake now. Most of the artists just come from a cookie cutter with no soul. Give me Jones and Hag or Lefty any day. There are a few guys these days but not many. The whole history of country is based on sincerity and home grown spirit. Not Hollywood type BS that is created in the studio. It seems that ever since the big studios started making super big bucks the music started going down hill. O well I still have my Bobby Flores CD and my Daryl Singltary CD and of course Terry Bethel, John Hughey, Big E, Gene Watson, Moe Bandy, Mel Tillis, and all the country greats that I listen to over and over..... [This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 21 November 2005 at 02:14 PM.] |
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Keith Cordell Member From: Atlanta |
posted 21 November 2005 02:40 PM
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Categorization of music has come under well deserved fire for a long time. I have definite feelings about what country music is, and what doesn't qualify; and, for the purposes of expanding on my knowledge of the musicians I study, I cherish the categories that a lot of people despise. Country music came from poor people, generally self educated and carrying nothing more into the "music business" than their talent and the clothes on their backs. Loretta Lynn, whom I consider the touchstone of the pinnacle of the form, is an example of the purest country artist. She was uneducated, but extremely smart and her husband (for all his faults) helped guide her to an astounding career. Similar stories exist all through the early Nashville days, most of the country artists then weren't "groomed" for the business, they either had it or they didn't. Same with Patsy Cline, Johnny Cash, Willie, etc., noone had a "marketing plan" that would be recognizable by todays music industry. Most if not all of the top modern country artists have been marketed to the point where there was little chance of failure, generally on looks and flash as opposed to ability and genuine talent. There are exceptions, but they are not marketed to the country market, they are under the umbrella of "Americana" music. The best country album I've heard in years was Buddy Miller's new one, and it was the AMU's album of the year. Check out Robbie Fulks, or Caitlin Cary, or Ryan Adams and the Cardinals. They tend to stray a little but for the most part it's a lot more country than anything you care gonna get from the mega radio networks that are shoving Big & Rich and Garth down your throats. |
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John Steele Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada |
posted 21 November 2005 02:42 PM
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The only time it's relevant, and the only reason they do it, is so they know which section of the record store to put it in. -John |
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erik Member From: |
posted 21 November 2005 03:40 PM
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I've said it once before on this board and many chuckled. For me it all comes down to what the bass is playing. A Country or Folk tune can be converted or confined to Pop by controlling the bassline. JMO ------------------ [This message was edited by erik on 21 November 2005 at 03:41 PM.] |
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Ken Williams Member From: Arkansas |
posted 21 November 2005 05:10 PM
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If Tom T was still around I'm sure he would write a song. Country issssssss........ Tank top tee shirts Skimpy mini skirts Teeth pearly white and hype Sorry, couldn't resist. Ken |
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Donny Hinson Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. |
posted 21 November 2005 07:00 PM
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In real country music, the bass guitar and drums are not lead instruments.  |
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Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky |
posted 21 November 2005 07:36 PM
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Webster's II 1984 New Riverside edition definition: Country Music n. Popular music derived from folk music of the rural U.S., esp. the S or SW U.S. Hmmmm.....interesting. |
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John Ummel Member From: Arlington, WA. |
posted 21 November 2005 08:14 PM
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ALL Great comments. I'm soakin it up. I think Ron's comment about sincerity is quite to the point. I get what you're sayin & I agree. Keith, you are so right, there's probably not a better example of pure country soul than Loretta. Terry...I'm country through & through by your standards cuz I was raised on beans & cornbread. We used to fight for the corner pieces! Mike, I love your idea that there are only 2 kinds of music...you are absolutely right. I'm taking it all to heart, thank you gentlemen.  Johnny |
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Joe Miraglia Member From: Panama, New York USA |
posted 22 November 2005 12:59 PM
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I don't like cornbread, can I still listen and play country music? |
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John Ummel Member From: Arlington, WA. |
posted 22 November 2005 01:49 PM
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Ok but then I get to wear my Converse All Star sneakers...next thing ya know they're sayin' "That ain't Country!!"  |
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Ron Sodos Member From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA |
posted 22 November 2005 03:24 PM
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"New York, get the rope!" |
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Ron Sodos Member From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA |
posted 22 November 2005 03:25 PM
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. [This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 22 November 2005 at 03:26 PM.] |
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Keith Cordell Member From: Atlanta |
posted 22 November 2005 03:53 PM
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Nope, Joe. You are officially going to have to turn in your horseshoe ring. |
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Steve Stallings Member From: Bremond, Tx, pop 876, Home of the fighting Bremond Tigers |
posted 22 November 2005 04:17 PM
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quote: Garth..... ------------------
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John Ummel Member From: Arlington, WA. |
posted 22 November 2005 07:22 PM
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quote:Yep Jerry. My grandaddy was an old-time fiddle player and baker in Lubbock, Texas. He gave me a fiddle when I was just a little bitty boy. I learned to play some old time tunes and I'm no great fiddle player but I agree with Webster about the roots of country music. Its something intangible, but ya know it when ya hear it. |
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Charles Davidson Member From: Alabama, USA |
posted 27 November 2005 09:55 PM
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What is country you ask? I know what's NOT country.Smashing a $2000 dollar on stage is NOT country,Swinging over the audience on a rope like a monkey is NOT country,Blazing distored Les Pauls is NOT country,twirling a mike stand and wearing a duster is NOT country,appearing on the opry[or any venue]looking like a derelict is NOT country,A tank top shirt with a cowboy hat is NOT country,Incorporating rap ^%#* in their music is NOT country,Touring with out a steel is NOT country,[Its impossible to play country with out steel]Ignoring great artist like Dale Watson is differently NOT country,But what is ludicrous is millions think that this halfassed attempt at playing 70's rock and roll IS country,because the music industry tells them it's country,but it's NOTTTT!!!!! If you don't believe me. ASK J.W. |
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Charles Davidson Member From: Alabama, USA |
posted 27 November 2005 10:17 PM
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P.S. I'm a big fan of Elton John,but on a country award show,I think not.Maybe George Jones or Porter can be on the next BET RAP awards show,maybe that will even things out! |
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Mike Winter Member From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA |
posted 27 November 2005 10:26 PM
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"Its impossible to play country with out steel" Dumb... We aren't able to get a steel player "full time", as far as being "in" the band. If we want a steel in the band...and we do...we have to get pick up players when we can. They are a premium in this area. So I suppose when we have a steel player, we're playing country...and when we don't, we're not. Whatever... ------------------ [This message was edited by Mike Winter on 27 November 2005 at 10:27 PM.] |
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Charles Davidson Member From: Alabama, USA |
posted 28 November 2005 12:20 AM
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Your absolutely right,No steel,no country,It may be a country song,The steel for over half a century has been the defining instrument in country music,not the fiddle,bass,guitar,or keyboard,a rock and roll,jazz,blues,or pop band can play a country song,but without the steel it's not country. |
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Ray Minich Member From: Limestone, New York, USA |
posted 28 November 2005 11:32 AM
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Oops, after posting I reread & noticed I was being reduntant. Justice Stewart was speaking about naughty stuff... [This message was edited by Ray Minich on 28 November 2005 at 11:34 AM.] |
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Bill Cutright Member From: Akron, OH |
posted 28 November 2005 03:43 PM
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I almost hesitate to chime in... These old tires are pretty worn.... but here's $0.02: Let's look at NASCAR Sometimes I get the impression some of us think that there is a constitution of Country Music and there needs to be some kind of United Nations/Supreme Court entity to enforce the wording. We all know how well that works... (Yea, I know - NASCAR has rules, but even so..., the rules are always changing) |
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Tim Harr Member From: East Peoria, Illinois |
posted 28 November 2005 05:27 PM
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It is only Country if it is marketed as country. Even if it isn't.. |
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John Ummel Member From: Arlington, WA. |
posted 28 November 2005 06:51 PM
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quote: Boy, I think there's a lot of truth in that statement, sure stays closer to the roots, especially today. |
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Dave Mudgett Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA |
posted 29 November 2005 03:41 AM
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quote: Look, I love steel as much as anybody, but the Carter family didn't have steel. If that ain't country, I'll eat my own hat, and you'll get an argument from any old-timer country lover I've ever known. Or how about Jimmy Martin, who's moniker was "good 'n' country", and I never heard anybody argue. No steel there, either (but b@njo). We've been around and around this issue. No single instrument, or the lack of it, makes or breaks the idea of "it's country".
quote: I think this is more important than any specific instrumentation. I argue that sincerity and musical quality far outweigh any marketeer's desire to pigeonhole any music with a marketing label. I think we need to get away from these stereotypes, and let the music do the talking. Just my opinion. |
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Charlie McDonald Member From: Lubbock, Texas, USA |
posted 29 November 2005 06:02 AM
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quote: That's what works for me. |
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Tony Prior Member From: Charlotte NC |
posted 29 November 2005 06:05 AM
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it's not just music, it's state of mind as well as LOOK and appeal..and culture of the Artist.. Simplicity of major key music..simple progressions, easy to understand lyrics/story lines..peformers that are convincing..not just singing the words.... Being able to play complex over a very simple rudiment rhythm section...( Steel, Tele's, Fiddles, Dobro etc) and maintain the simplicity of the music ..easy to listen to...play complex but stay within the CULTURE... I'm not syaing that much of todays Country Music is NOT Country Music, some of it is... it's just not the Music that I want to listen to..and the Artists themselves have a lot to do with it..probably a lot to do with it... Loretta , Buck, Merle, Conway etc.....they could do a show each on there own, a great show, without a band... They can peform and sing you into their world....you will clearly understand where they are coming from... Can Kenny do a show on his own without a band? Can Tim ? Garth could..and I'm not even a Garth fan... Ronnie Dunn could..Kix Brooks could not... Brad could Martina could These folks can bring you into their world, they live in that world.. so called Kenny's are not part of the culture , they sing a song go with the hype and after that return to what ever it is they were doing before the show.. "If I don't wear a big hat and show my muscles, I can't peform..." to me, the artist is equally important to big the picture. [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 02 December 2005 at 04:45 AM.] |
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Charles Davidson Member From: Alabama, USA |
posted 30 November 2005 11:39 AM
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I'm waiting for that SOLO Garth concert. |
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Charles French Member From: Ms. |
posted 30 November 2005 05:44 PM
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Maybe the question should be---What doesn't make it country? |
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Theresa Galbraith Member From: Goodlettsville,Tn. USA |
posted 01 December 2005 05:41 AM
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What makes it Country? It's subjective as to what Country is. |
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Roger Kelly Member From: Mount Carmel, TN. 37645 |
posted 01 December 2005 05:53 AM
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quote: That's hitting the nail on the head Tony. |
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Walter Stettner Member From: Vienna, Austria |
posted 01 December 2005 11:11 AM
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Charles Davidson, Here is a randomly selected list of songs that are not country acc. to your definition ("no steel, no country" and "without the steel it's not country"):
No steel on all of those! Kind Regards, Walter |
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John Poston Member From: Albuquerque, NM, USA |
posted 01 December 2005 12:47 PM
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Don't forget real Western Swing must have an accordian, too!!! |
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