Ionian
Mixolydian
Dorian

*(C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C)

The Double Harmonic Minor (or "Byzantine") scale has a lot of potential too, along with it's assorted modes. It's traditionally used for charming cobras, but it might work on those little desert rattlers you have in California.

(C Db E F G Ab B C)

[This message was edited by David Mason on 24 November 2005 at 03:40 AM.]

We actually have a short section
of lead guitar and bass octaves
in a new song using this scale.

C Db Eb F G An Bb. This works well when descending.

Ionian - The Major Scale - Bright sounding.

Dorian - minor sounding, has a b3 and b7 - Scarborough Fair

Phrygian- b2, b3, b6, b7 - minor Middle Eastern Sounding - Al DiMeola

Lydian- #4 - Jazzy Sounding - Jeff Berlin

Mixolydian - b7th - Bluesy Major sounding, also Country

Aeolian - b3, b6, b7 - exactly the same as a Natural Minor Scale

Locrian - b2, b3, b5, b6, b7 - very strange sounding- Steve Vai.

(on a six-string, you can use the Byzantine scale in E using the low open E string, alternating with the Hungarian Minor scale in A using the open A string - the notes are the same - E F G# A B C D# E;
A B C D# E F G# A - but you change the emphasis by banging away on alternating open root strings. You can knock the socks offa them thar snakes with those kind of licks, Bubba.)

[This message was edited by David Mason on 25 November 2005 at 02:03 AM.]

quote:

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But can you guys actually play?

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Let me ask a couple of questions of you guys that are so terrified of theory that it leads you to make insinuations that people who study it can't play...

What's the second chord of "Take the A Train", and what would you play over it ?
In another thread they are discussing the old tune "At Last". What's the chord in the 3rd bar of the bridge, and what do you play over it ?

It would be OK to say "I Don't Know", because that's what the majority of steel players would have to answer if they were honest.
Chicken Pickin' over jazz changes doesn't cut it. Calling someone a "jazz snob" because they point out correctly that someone hasn't paid their dues enough to know what they're doing doesn't cut it either.

-John
p.s. Richard, I think I can play, but I'll leave that up to others to make the call.

[This message was edited by John Steele on 27 November 2005 at 02:24 PM.]

I think I'll leave them alone for now.

EJL

Scale--derives from association with Christianity and fish

Natural Minor Scale--ancient form of children's music

Balkan--from "Take Me Out To the Ball Game"

Dorian--from the music played during the sinking of the Andria Doria.

Lydian--from John Prine's "Donald and Lydia"

Mixolydian--from tunes heard by medieval bartenders

Aeolian--from the three models of National metal-bodied guitars, duolian, triolian, and aeolian

Ionian--from music celebrating the ownership of an aeolian

Locrian--from Steve Vai because it's so lucrative

Phrygian--ancient spelling that describes intolerable music, now modernized in such terms as "friggin rap music." Major phrygian derives from a military term for taps played by an officer.

I won't kid around about things like that again.

quote:

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Suppose you had all the scales and modes memorized. What the heck would you do with that knowledge?

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In order to simplify (believe me I need to), I would think of the basic chords of an A Harmonic Minor scale as being E major, F major, Ab dim and Am, with the obvious substitutions between major/minor, and the associated diminished chords B, D and F (build a chord off of each scale degree). Since the scale Matt posted is the 5th mode, it would be rooted in E using the above chords. If I wanted to know what chords likely to be associated with that scale in it's original context, I would shuffle these up and down. If I had a chord progression that I wanted to solo over, I would try to derive the "home scale" from what I know about song structures - *most* songs follow simple rules, with occasional changes in the tonal center strictly for cheap drama. There are jazz songs that intentionally, even mathematically change tonal centers ("Giant Steps?"), but it helps to know how to derive each separate one, in order to make any sense out of them.

There's all sorts of reasons for liking music of course; wanting to know the "why" of things could actually be considered sort of an affliction if it takes time away from memorizing licks and tricks to play onstage for money. This is just another set of tricks, I suppose - in that sense, Beethoven and Coltrane just knew a few more tricks than the next guy.

[This message was edited by David Mason on 28 November 2005 at 05:29 AM.]

Is the "At Last" chord you're talking about is the E-F transition into the key change part of the chorus - in the key of F? (then its Am Dm G C C#dim Dm G C). I haven't fooled around much with this one, so I don't really have any improvisational suggestions. (really cool song, tho - one of my all-time favorites - besides Etta's great voice, that intro is really enigmatic and floors me every time I listen to it).

Major Scale Modes:

1) Major Scale (Ionian): no alternation
2) Dorian: flat 3, flat 7
3) Phrygian (Kurd, Arabic): flat 2, flat 3, flat 6, flat 7
4) Lydian: sharp 4
5) Mixolydian: flat 7
6) Aeolian (Natural Minor, Ancient Minor, Pure Minor): flat 3, flat 6,
flat 7
7) Locrian: flat 2, flat 3, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7

Melodic Minor Scale Modes

1) Melodic Minor (Jazz Minor): flat 3
2) Javanese: flat 2, flat 3, flat 7
3) Lydian Augmented: sharp 4, sharp 5, flat 7
4) Overtone (Lydian Dominant): sharp 4, flat 7
5) Hindu: flat 6, flat 7
6) Locrian natural 2: flat 3, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7
7) Super Locrian (Altered, Ravel): flat 2, flat 3, 4, flat 5, flat 6,
flat 7

Harmonic Minor Scale Modes:

1) Harmonic Minor Scale (Mohammedan): flat 3, flat 6
2) Locrian Natural 6: flat 2, flat 3, flat 5, flat 7
3) Harmonic Major: sharp 5
4) Romanian: flat 3, sharp 4, flat 7
5) Phrygian Dominant (Major Phrygian, Balkan, Jewish, Spanish Gypsy,
Ahavoh Rabboh): flat 2, flat 6, flat 7
6) Lydian sharp 2: sharp 2, sharp 4
7) Ultra Locrian: flat 2, flat 3, 4, flat 5, flat 6, double flat 7

Double Harmonic Minor Scale Modes

1) Double Harmonic Minor (Byzantine, Gypsy, Charhargah, East Indian
Raga): flat 2, flat 6
2) sharp 2, sharp 4, sharp 6
3) flat 2, flat 3, 4, flat 6, double flat 7
4) Hungarian Minor (Algerian): flat 3, sharp 4, flat 6
5) Oriental: flat 2, flat 5, flat 7
6) sharp 2, sharp 5
7) flat 2, double flat 3, flat 5, flat 6, double flat 7

Neapolitan Major Modes

1) Neapolitan Major: flat 2, flat 3
2) sharp 4, sharp 5, sharp 6
3) sharp 4, sharp 5, flat 7
4) Lydian Minor: sharp 4, flat 6, flat 7
5) Major Locrian (Arabian): flat 5, flat 6, flat 7
6) flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7
7) flat 2, double flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7

Neapolitan Minor Modes

1) Neapolitan Minor: 2, 3, 6
2) sharp 4, sharp 6
3) Mixolydian Augmented: sharp 5, flat 7
4) Hungarian Gypsy: flat 3, sharp 4, flat 6, flat 7
5) flat 2, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7
6) sharp 2
7) flat 2, double flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, flat 6, double flat 7

Hungarian Major Modes

1) Hungarian Major: sharp 2, sharp 4, flat 7
2) flat 2, flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, double flat 6, double flat 7
3) flat 3, flat 5,flat 6
4) flat 2, flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, flat 7
5) flat 3, sharp 5
6) flat 2, flat 3, sharp 4, flat 7
7) sharp 3, sharp 4, sharp 5

Indian Ragas

Todi: flat 2, flat 3, sharp 4, flat 6
Marva: flat 2, sharp 4

Miscellaneous

Persian: flat 2, flat 5, flat 6
Enigmatic: flat 2, sharp 4, sharp 5, sharp 6
Spanish Eight Tone: flat 3, (3), flat 5, flat 6, flat 7

Synthetic Scales

Synthetic scales are scales that follow particular orders in the steps
between the note values, rather than traditional tonal construction.
The following scales are listed by their formulas rather than interval
differences to the major scale.

Chromatic: (all ½ step distances): ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½
Whole Tone (all whole step distances): 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Diminished: 1, ½, 1, ½, 1, ½, 1, ½
Inverted Diminished: ½, 1, ½, 1, ½, 1, ½, 1
Augmented Scale: 1½, ½, 1½, ½, 1½, ½

Pentatonic Scales

Because of the variations possible in pentatonic scales and different intervals being excluded, all the intervals in each scale are listed rather than just the altered intervals compared to the major scale.

Pentatonic Major Modes

1) Major Scale Pentatonic (Mongolian): 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8
2) Egyptian: 1, 2, 4, 5, flat 7, 8
3) 1, flat 3, 4, flat 6, flat 7, 8
4) Ritusen: 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8
5) Pentatonic minor: 1, flat 3, 4, 5, flat 7, 8

Exotic Pentatonic Scales

Japanese: 1, flat 2, 4, 5, flat 6, 8
Chinese: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8
Chinese: 1, 3, sharp 4, 5, 7, 8
Iwato: 1, flat 2, 4, 5, flat 7, 8
Scriabin: 1, flat 2, 3, 5, 6, 8
Hirajoshi: 1, 2, flat 3, 5, flat 6, 8
Kumoi: 1, 2, flat 3, 5, 6, 8
Pelog (Balinese): 1, flat 2, flat 3, 5, flat 6, 8
Indian Pentatonic: 1, 3, 4, 5, flat 7, 8

Hexatonic scales (6 note scales):

The use of modes is not neccesarily to
use them all the time...
but to
a) have them available for unusual transitional changes

b) and alternate flavor when you have already done the blues licks in a solo,
and get another chance at the changes, ( "yeah man, take another!")

c) as Bob Hoffnar noted,
because some songs have unusual modal nuances,
and if you have ever worked on those modes,
you are NOT COMPLETELY LOST when something unusuaL COMES UP.

d) because the more you know the better you play PERIOD!

e) you play out of modes in many song's melodies,
you just don't recognize that is is a specifical modal derived change.
Though it may only be a few measures out of a pentatonical song,
isn't it better to know why it was written like that

If you limit yourself to certain typical possibilities, then ...
that's all ya got...
It then becomes oh so easy to stay in the same thing all night long.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 30 November 2005 at 06:32 AM.]