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Author	Topic: Baritone guits
Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky	posted 22 July 2006 10:58 AM profile I am exploring ideas on the 6 string baritone guitar. Primarily in a lead role as used on Clint Black's Killin' Time and CRR's Queen of Memphis as opposed to tic tac bass lines. I know that CRR's lead player [name escapes me at the moment, sorry] uses or did use a Tele Sub-sonic 27" scale tuned to B. Not sure about the Black tune. I guess what I'm looking for is input from you guys that have actual experience playing them, and the differences in the B tuned 27" scale V the 30" scale tuned down an octave from standard. How much use could I expect to get out of it on your averge gig? I have a short scale Framus bass and judging from the fret widths on that, I'm assuming that the 27" scale would be much better for chord or interval shapes for a guy with medium sized hands. A fairly recent Gretsch catalog shows a doubleneck with both standard and 30" baritone tunings. It looks pretty cool but I can imagine it would be a load by the end of the night. I found some info on the Tele Sub string gauges, but not much for the 30" baritone. I'm not in a position to buy anything just yet, but would like to gather some info for study and hopefully a purchase when times are better. Thanx JO. [This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 22 July 2006 at 11:10 AM.]
Al Moss Member From: Kent,OH,USA	posted 22 July 2006 11:27 AM profile Baritones are a fun little addition to the palette of sounds that can be made during an evening's performance, but, it may be hard to use it more than as a spice here and there. I play a Danelectro Bari tuned to a low "A". The "A" tuning seems more functional to me than the "B" and makes more visual sense when doing tranposing from standard gtr tuning to the Bari. There is a Danny Gatton live disc in which he's playing a double neck of stardard tuned and bari. The bari playing is every bit as cool as the standard stuff and automatically, the bari has that cool twangy fat tone.
Alvin Blaine Member From: Sandy Valley, Nevada, USA	posted 22 July 2006 12:02 PM profile I also use a Danelectro and tune it "A" to "A". I do have a set of string to tune it an octave down "E" to "E", but have only used that once on a recording. Danelectro just put out a longhorn baritone reissue, it looks pretty cool and has a street price around $400.
James Pennebaker Member From: Mt. Juliet, TN	posted 22 July 2006 12:04 PM profile I agree with Al. I also use one of the Danelectro Baritone reissues and tune it to A. A is a bit easier for me to transpose with than B but that is only because I'm a little slow on the uptake. I never go to a session without it though it only gets used occasionally. I think the sound of the Dano is excellent and maybe more recognizable to some as "the" sound since many of the old records with Bari tracks were cut on Danos. JP
Stephen Gambrell Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA	posted 22 July 2006 12:29 PM profile Not quite the same, but I've got a Danelectro that I put .012-.60's on, and tune it down a whole step to "D." It's NOT a bari, just the U2 reissue.
Bill Hatcher Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA	posted 22 July 2006 12:34 PM profile Good to see that the Dano guitars are back out. I love the six string bass and the Bariton guitar they reissued years ago. I was suprised when they discontinued the guitars. Hope they bring more of them back.
Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky	posted 22 July 2006 01:20 PM profile Thanks for all the great comments guys. Could be that the Tele I saw in CRR's band was tuned to A. That might make sense... especially if the tune is played in that key. I was just going by Fender's propoganda that lists the Sub Sonic as B tuned. Anyone using the Fender Subsonics [Tele, Strat, Jaguar]? The Dano appears to be standard judging by the comments so far. 'Preciate some examples of how/what songs you guys use it on too. [This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 22 July 2006 at 01:29 PM.]
Darvin Willhoite Member From: Leander, Tx. USA	posted 22 July 2006 01:31 PM profile I have an old Dano baritone in my collection, but it doesn't do too much for me. What I really enjoy is using the virtual capo on my Line 6 Variax acoustic to tune down an octave and play acoustic bass. It sounds really good in my opinion, and all the other musicians wonder where that sound is coming from. ------------------ Darvin Willhoite Riva Ridge Recording
John Billings Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA	posted 22 July 2006 01:32 PM profile I have two Baritones. One a Dano that I don't play anymore, because the Strat with a Warmoth conversion neck totally destroyed it! I use SIT Pro Spec 1164 string set on the Warmoth/Strat.. 12,17,22p,36,50,64. Tuned to B. It plays exactly like a regular six-string feel-wise. Bends, hammers, tapping, whatever. The Dano is a very "stiff-feeling" guitar. I'm able to use the Warmoth/Strat on much more stuff than I could the Dano. Sooo,,, if you have a Fender guitar that you don't use, check out the Warmoth site.
Mike Perlowin Member From: Los Angeles CA	posted 22 July 2006 02:07 PM profile I also have a Dano baritone tuned to A, and it sounds good, but I don't like the 30 inch scale. I'd prefer something shorter. I'm thinking of getting a Variax with a Warmoth 27 or 28 inch scale neck an tuning it to A, and tuning the Dano down to E, making it a 6 string bass.
Dave Mudgett Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA	posted 22 July 2006 07:26 PM profile I love baritone guitars, but I have also found the longer-scale versions of limited use except for texture and the occasional solo. So for some time, my bari is one of the red-sparkle, standard-guitar-scale, Silvertone Danelectro 2-lipstick-pickup amp-in-the-case guitars with very heavy strings on it - I think they start out at .018p or .020w and go down to .085-.095. I tune down to B or A, it's not too slack, and can use it more widely by bringing it back up to higher pitches with a capo. When capoed, it is more in the standard guitar range, but has a much fuller sound, especially for rhythm. The difference, to my ears, between these and a 30-inch scale version is that the chords have more clarity. For any of these, I find these instruments require a lot of sonic space. I can use these with bands that understand that - otherwise, it's a waste of time. They're huge-sounding in a subdued 2 or 3 piece without bass or drums. One of my favorite records displaying outstanding use of bari is Ray Kennedy's "What a Way to Go".
Michael Johnstone Member From: Sylmar,Ca. USA	posted 22 July 2006 11:45 PM profile I have a Dano Hodad and just tune it down to D w/stout strings. One time Pete Anderson brought a Tele over to my studio with a fat neck and a huge set of strings on there tuned all the way down to C like Steve Cropper always did on all those Stax records. So you don't really need a longer neck for that stuff - just different strings.As far as transposing,I just mentally pretend I'm in whatever key it looks like I'm playing in so there's nothing to keep track of.
Bill Cunningham Member From: Cumming, Ga. USA	posted 23 July 2006 07:56 AM profile FWIW, I opened for Marty Stuart Wednesday and talked with Kenny Vaughn a bit. He was playing a "Floyd" brand Tele knock off and said he is also using Floyd's baritiones. They play great and are relatively inexpensive he said. You can hear Kenny on the Rick Trevino album ( I think the title is "In My Dreams") from a couple of years ago. Awesome stuff by Kenny and Dan Dugmore. I think he said Floyd is around Nashville. ------------------ Bill Cunningham
John Billings Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA	posted 23 July 2006 11:39 AM profile The Warmoth conversion necks are 28 3/8s scale length. My first bari was a Tele with big strings. It wasn't that great. When I found out how relatively cheap the Warmoth necks were, I bought on. I just found the Dano to be too stiff and of limited use. You can put a conversion neck on your Tele or Strat in about 10 minutes or less. String it up, re-intonate the bridge cuz of the bigger strings. Maybe an hour total, if you have a couple beers while doin' it! Here's a Warmoth page on the conversion neck. http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/necks/necks.cfm?fuseaction=strat_baritone [This message was edited by John Billings on 23 July 2006 at 11:42 AM.]
John Billings Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA	posted 23 July 2006 11:41 AM profile Maple/maple Strat conversion neck...$167. Basically a Sub-sonic Strat!
Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky	posted 23 July 2006 02:55 PM profile Thanx everybody. Some things here that I wasn't aware of or had not considered. The custom shop Tele Sub is just so cool and equally expensive.... I'm afraid it's beyond my means. It will be my first pick when I win the lotto. OTOH, I do have a Tele I could swap necks on or possibly only string gauges just to get a taste of Baritoneness! Thanks all, any other ideas or input welcome.
Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky	posted 23 July 2006 04:05 PM profile By the by....although I am not hip to Ray Kennedy or the tune you refer to Dave M., I will certaintly keep an ear out for it. Michael J., Pete Anderson and Steve Cropper....what hosses those 2 are! How about a refresher on some of the Cropper Stax cuts you refer to?
Jon Light Member From: Brooklyn, NY	posted 23 July 2006 04:11 PM profile I'm not a guitarist but I just happened to be chatting with a picker I sat in with today who carries a Jerry Jones 6 string bass along with his Tele and G&L B-bender. He was saying that the guy who played the cool licks on the first Steve Earle release (my mind is blank on his name) was talking about his dislike for the bari guitars and is a big fan of the bass. My guy proceeded to pull off those Earle licks and what can I say--I was sold. Great sound. Don't know how that is tuned.
Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky	posted 23 July 2006 04:54 PM profile Jon...thanks for the reminder. The Steve Earle tune [Guitar Town, isn't it?] is another example of the bari work I was referring to. [This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 23 July 2006 at 05:01 PM.]
Michael Johnstone Member From: Sylmar,Ca. USA	posted 23 July 2006 06:37 PM profile Anything by Booker T,Otis Redding,Sam & Dave for starters - The lick in Soul Man,Sittin on the Dock of the Bay,the solo guitar in Green Onions,etc. He didn't often play baritone range cowboy licks as is probably being discussed here,though. Another guy who tuned down to C was Albert King. Lotsa guys put big strings on and tune a regular guitar down to D like Johnny Meeks from the Blue Caps and when I told Dale Watson about it,he started doing it too. -MJ-
Dave Mudgett Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA	posted 23 July 2006 08:49 PM profile quote: He was saying that the guy who played the cool licks on the first Steve Earle release (my mind is blank on his name) was talking about his dislike for the bari guitars and is a big fan of the bass. You must be talking about Richard Bennett. "Guitar Town" lists 6-string bass, not bari. My guitar shop was a Jerry Jones dealer for a period, I had one of those longhorn 6-string basses for quite some time. They are great, but to me, one really needs a lot of sonic space for the sound, and it seems, to me, to compete with the bass. It is typically a bit more hollow-sounding than the full-scale bass, but I think it takes even more effort to find room for it. But it sure worked on "Guitar Town", though. When it comes down to it, I think they both can be made to work, and they are somewhat different beasts. I like the shorter-scale bari approach better because, to me, the sound is, for lack of a better word, a bit more "fluid". Playing up the neck on the bari guitar really is beautiful, IMO, and stands on its own without doubling. BTW, I stand corrected on the Ray Kennedy record - I just looked at the sleeve, and it's listed as a "Silver Jones Longhorn Six String Bass". Of course, the '51 Tele and '58 Strat he doubled with this probably helped a lot. That record, on Atlantic, was from about 1990, and "Doin' Life Without You" and "What A Way To Go" got a lot of airplay. It was recorded in his home studio, he played everything except steel and other slide instruments (Bruce Bouton) and Wurly (Ron Oates). To me, this is one of the classic modern country records, and showed complete mastery of understatement, which is why I think low-strung guitar worked so well.
Alvin Blaine Member From: Sandy Valley, Nevada, USA	posted 23 July 2006 09:11 PM profile If you want to see how someone can get the most out of a baritone/6 string bass, then you need to get a Mike Henderson recording. He is one of the guys that started "Dead Reckoning Records", and his Edge of Night album on that label is great. It pretty much features the baritone as the primary lead instrument. He even plays some terrific slide solos on his baritone. [This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 23 July 2006 at 09:24 PM.]
Dave Mudgett Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA	posted 23 July 2006 09:20 PM profile IMO, Mike Henderson is great for any aspect of his music. Edge of the Night is one of the best CDs I have heard in the last 20 years, and the title song has a killer low-strung guitar solo. The CD also has some great steel playing by Tommy Spurlock and Steve Hinson. I shoulda' remembered this one.
Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky	posted 24 July 2006 08:30 AM profile I'm familiar with Steve C's work through that era +, but as what I believe are standard tunings. I would be interested in any tunes he cut using the aforementioned C tuning. Mike Henderson. I remember seeing him around CMT several yrs. ago I believe. A video maybe with Kevin Welch? Some other TV spots with other artists and perhaps 1 or 2 featuring him and his music. Same guy?
Alvin Blaine Member From: Sandy Valley, Nevada, USA	posted 24 July 2006 02:23 PM profile Jerry, Yes that's Mike Henderson with Kevin Welch. Mike has played guitar for many folks over the years. He also had a couple of videos of his own music out and I think about four albums. Maybe more albums, but I have four of them. He did have a song make it onto the charts a few years ago called "Wouldn't Lay My Guitar Down". [This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 24 July 2006 at 02:27 PM.]
Mark Fasbender Member From: Salt Lake City,Utah	posted 26 July 2006 11:06 PM profile I play a Dano and tune it to A and drop that to G on bottom. Playing in the D position gives me a dropped G tuning. If I need it in a different key I capo. Works well once you get used to it. I play it on songs you would not normally expect a Bari to be on. Nice sound through a twin with some well timed tremolo. ------------------ Got Twang ? Mark
Mark van Allen Member From: loganville, Ga. USA	posted 27 July 2006 09:03 AM profile I'm another on the Dano-Bari-tuned-to-A wagon. We use it in the studio a lot- it really makes some tracks. I agree on needing sonic space for it. Years ago I opened for Highway 101, and during their set Jack Daniels stepped up to a Dano Bari in a stand and played a long intro including classical, Atkins picking, rock and some blazing country. It was pretty amazing and has stuck with me as inspiration. ------------------ Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky	posted 10 August 2006 10:23 AM profile I was just listening to Josh Turner's "Will you go with me" and I thought I heard a baritone axe about the last verse and chorus. I hadn't paid attention to it before. Could this have been a baritone guitar...possibly even an acoustic one? or perhaps an acoustic bass tuned up? Just wonderin'.
Clyde Mattocks Member From: North Carolina, USA	posted 10 August 2006 12:02 PM profile If you don't know what one sounds like, think "Galveston" by Glen Campbell. I took a cheapie, no name, department store electric bass and doweled up the four holes, made a six string bridge and converted it to a baritone guitar. It makes a nice diversion on sessions when used with a flanger. Lots of times, a client won't know what it is but he likes it.
Ben Slaughter Member From: Madera, California	posted 10 August 2006 02:02 PM profile Don't forget one of the classic barry guitar licks in Campbell's "Wichita Lineman." I use a Dano tuned to B. [This message was edited by Ben Slaughter on 10 August 2006 at 02:03 PM.]
Stephan Miller Member From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA	posted 10 August 2006 06:00 PM profile I have an ESP bari that I've used in a guitar/vocal duo, tuned in C. Works well when thumbpicking basslines & fingerpicking the high strings in an otherwise acoustic duo/trio, no drums. Plenty of space there.
Lindy Griffith Member From: Missouri, USA	posted 10 August 2006 07:38 PM profile Tune it to an A and keep it simple. Jerry Jones Neptune is a great instrument for a couple of hundred more.
Per Berner Member From: Skövde, Sweden	posted 10 August 2006 11:01 PM profile A couple of years ago I built myself a baritone guitar with lipstick tube pickups and a 30" scale. The sound is HUGE, almost piano-like. I've tried A and E tunings, and as a short scale bass it works great, but played as a guitar in A tuning (with Fender's Bajo Sexto string set) the long scale slows you down quite a bit. With a capo on the second it fret feels much better; next time I'll go for something like 27-28 inches.
Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky	posted 11 August 2006 08:23 AM profile I do know what one sounds like, but thanks for the other examples. What I was hearing in the Tunrner tune may very well be the low growl of a reso, now that I think about it. Nice job, Per! Your input about scale length is exactly the sort of info I'm looking for.
Pete Burak Member From: Portland, OR USA	posted 11 August 2006 10:24 AM profile 'Saw The Hacienda Bros here in town last night. Lots of Baratone Guit with Pedal Steel (often trading licks, or doubling licks). Sounded very cool. The Bari player also played a fair amount of tick-tack bass (doubling the bass player). Very effective for authenic shuffles. I tried one in a store, but my fingers are too short too feel comfortable. I guess you have to get used to it, but that thick strings on a regular axe might be more in line of how I would need to do it. What guage strings and would work on a 3-spring Strat?
Mike Perlowin Member From: Los Angeles CA	posted 11 August 2006 10:44 AM profile Pete, the 30 inch Dano is hard to play, but there are some 28 inch bari guitars around that might suit you better. You might what to try one of those out.
John Billings Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA	posted 11 August 2006 11:28 AM profile Just get the Warmoth conversion neck for $165! 28 3/8" scale. Easy to play. See my earlier posts for the link. You'll be very happy.
Jerry Overstreet Member From: Louisville Ky	posted 22 August 2006 10:05 PM profile I was wrong! I just heard the Josh Turner tune again and I'm quite sure that's a low strung guitar and not the reso. Anyone have a list of the credits? Not to beat the horse to death, but I also just heard the Sawyer Brown cut of "The Race is On" with a baritone guit solo.

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