1. Pedal steel is not my main instrument. I consider myself a bluegrass dobro player.

2. I'm a long time fan of western swing, but, never had to approach it as a player until....

Now, when I recently decided to get off the pot and accept a position in a band that teeters between honky tonk and western swing styles.

I find that I am far less comfortable playing the swing stuff then the honky tonk styles. I know that there are theoretical and technical challenges I'm going to have to overcome. I'm pretty much in learn-as-you-play mode on the C6 neck.

Beyond this, I just get the feeling that the role of steel in swing is somehow different than when playing honky tonk styles, more subtle, supportive perhaps.

Anyone care to jump in and mentor a poor soul? Thoughts? Are my inadequacies getting the best of me?

Herb..You out there??

hp

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Howard Parker
poobah@resoguit.com
www.resoguit.com
ListOwner RESOGUIT-L
03' Carter D-10

But the solos aren't subtle at all! Very in-your-face, but elegant

As I said, I know what I hear, but I certainly can't play it!

-eric

[This message was edited by Eric Jaeger on 27 October 2006 at 08:46 AM.]

It is best that a person learns to drive with a standard transmission (a clutch and a shift lever)before progressing to an automatic transmission.

The analogy is true of a steel guitar....it is best to learn to play a "non-pedal" steel before trying to learn to play a "pedal" steel.

Unfortunately, most steel guitarists today initially learned to play a pedal steel (automatic transmission) before they tried to learn how to play a non-pedal (stick-shift) steel, so the learning curve is backwards.

Ideally, the first goal is to learn to play a steel-guitar (non-pedal), and then progress to a pedal-steel.

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www.genejones.com

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 27 October 2006 at 09:24 AM.]

If you think like sax and trumpet
calling responces back to the vocals,
you're on the right track..
from my point of view.

Partly because it's heyday was during
and just after WWII,
when many of the swing band horn sections
were broken up because of armed forces service.

quote:

---

For me it's more like a jazz horn duet or trio,
on top of the changes.

---

I'm happy to see this. I've been thinking in terms of big horn section moving fat chords thru the changes. My solo approach has been to emulate the chord based stuff that I hear in the original non-pedal material.

btw...If it makes a difference, I do own (and occasionally play) an 8 string G6/C6 resonator guitar as well as a 52' Fender Custom.

I'm playing a D-10 Carter on this gig...fwiw.

hp

[This message was edited by Howard Parker on 27 October 2006 at 12:06 PM.]

I don't understand what you mean.

In terms of mechanical complexity, isn't a non-pedal analogous to an automatic, and a pedal analogous to a stick?

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"I take my wife everywhere, but she keeps finding her way back." --Henny Youngman

[This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 28 October 2006 at 09:40 AM.]

When my wife taught me how to drive....

Seriously, I think I see what you're saying. But an automatic would be easier for the same reason a non-pedal would be easier: no left foot. Easier on the clutch and tranny, anyway. I started out on an automatic, but I wouldn't have one now. They feel like a kiddie car at Disneyland. But then I've driven billions of miles with all kinds of transmissions, so now a stick feels like it's automtic.

Also, people who learn automatic second tend to take off too fast--like it's not so much automatic as instantaneous.

On the other hand, do some people find non-pedal harder because of the left hand?

quote:

---

I just get the feeling that the role of steel in swing is somehow different than when playing honky tonk styles, more subtle, supportive perhaps.

---

I didn't mean to lead this to a pedal vs np discussion. Either will do the job. I'm hopeful that no one is implying that somehow the non-pedal steel assumes a different role on the western swing bandstand than pedal steel.

DavidM mentioned the ensemble makeup. The group I'm playing with features:

acoustic bass
acoustic rhythm guitar
electric lead/rhythm
pedal steel
percussion
occasional fiddle

It's a pretty stripped down sound.

hp

Buy a couple of Western Swing albums and really pay attention to the musical feeling you get when you listen to it. When I say listen, I don't mean once or twice. Listen to the album a dozen or so times until you begin to anticipate what the musicians are going to do next. You will soon find yourself composing (mentally) your own licks with your steel and doing it in Western Swing mode.

It may sound like a exercise in memory learning via repetition but it is far from it. Once you get the feel for the instrument movement in Western Swing, everything else just seems to fall into place all by its self.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Available at the forum store.

I'm digging through the Wills collection. Also have a small stack of Asleep At The Wheel, Morell and a bunch of others.

Great CD's and Artists:
Bobby Flores
AATW (the Wheel)
Ray Price
Buddy Emmons Sings Bob Wills.
Justin Trevino (relatively new artist)

Good luck. My2c.
Ron

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Ron
MSA M3 SU12, MSA SuperSlide, Standel. Stringmaster T8, Fender Custom T8, Fender Dual Pro

I'd agree most with Andy Volk's last post. That's pretty right on, with my own personal addenda. When I'm playing Western Swing, I think like a horn player, or a horn section... those kind of lines, generally. Punctuation on the backing sections, single-note horn lines for the solos.

When I'm playing corn on E9, I play things that I'd say were most akin to string section parts... sustained legato phrases in diad or triad form. That, or else Mooney/Emmons/Day type single note things.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 30 October 2006 at 06:02 AM.]

It's funny. The bluegrass gig I played for 7 years used to swing a few tunes. I used to do the Leon tune "You Just Take Her" on 8 string resonator. I felt really comfortable. I do play tunes like "Wine Me Up" and Coconut Grove with my trio gig.

I feel positively nekkid playing swing on steel with this band though. Don't know why. Probably because I haven't really disected the dynamics of the swing band!

My goal here is to play well with other children and become a supportive ensemble guy.

[This message was edited by Howard Parker on 30 October 2006 at 07:24 AM.]

At first, forget the pedals and learn to play it like a lap steel.

On Dobro I mostly play two string harmony skipping a string between the two I'm playing. On E9 I also do that, but frequently add the in-between string to play 3 adjacent strings. On C6 it seems to work better to play two adjacent strings with my pointer and middle fingers, and skip a string between that and my thumb. Or even better, play four adjacent strings. And don't worry about skipping the "non-chord" strings like 7 and 9 on E9. On C6 there usually aren't any non-chord strings.

Many of the chords in C6 swing are movable chords. Without worrying about slants or pedals, you can just move the same no-pedal grip to almost any fret. Hit the fret below where you are aiming, and slide the grip into the chord fret. Or slide from the I fret to the IIIb fret and on up to IV and V, maybe hitting the fret right before each of those chords. You can even walk a grip right down the chromatic scale. You can get really slap happy with those movable chords. And long glisses, even octave glisses, holding the same grip, are part of the style.

The first pedal to learn is pedal 6. It is analogous to the A and B pedals together on E9 - it gives you a IV9 chord. That is also a great movable chord. No-peddlers get some of that with a slant. But with the 6 pedal, you get thick 3 and 4 string grips. You can play tons of swing with the lap steel approach and just that one pedal. People will think you are a chord genius, but really you are just taking those movable chords all over the place. C6 was built for Western Swing. The neck almost plays itself. Of course at first you'll just be getting all the cliches. But cliches are a good thing for beginners to strive for - and it's what the listeners really expect to hear.

I can't say anything specific about the rhythm. You've got some great recordings to play along with. It is definitely a different feel than bluegrass and country. Less constricted and much looser.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 30 October 2006 at 07:38 AM.]

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 30 October 2006 at 03:57 PM.]

Buddy is on my "to-do" list.

My question, perhaps worded crudely, is really not about learning the C6 neck. I really do appreciate those commenting though.

It's really about understanding the western swing ensemble and what the expectations are of the steel guitar. I'm listening to some of the great bands, past and present and getting ideas on how to support the vocalist and be a competent backup player.

I can make music on the guitar. I've never committed to swing before. It's all part of my education.

Thanks all.

hp

p.s. Drop me a line if you have a need to understand the bluegrass dobro

[This message was edited by Howard Parker on 01 November 2006 at 06:00 AM.]