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Author
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Topic: Buddy Emmon's amp
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Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 10 September 2001 09:09 PM
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Does anyone know the type of ampflier Buddy Emmons used when he recorded "Buddy Emmons/Steel guitar (1975)? I really like that type of sound. |
Craig A Davidson
Member From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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posted 11 September 2001 09:15 PM
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If that's the one with Danny Boy, he used a Fender Twin.------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele |
Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 14 September 2001 10:29 PM
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This album was a collection of steel guitar favorites such as "Steel Guitar Rag", "Sugarfoot Rag", "Remington Steel", and was (I believe) Buddy's first rendition of "Orange Blossom Special". It does, however sound like it could be a Fender Twin.
Thanks for the suggestion, Craig |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 15 September 2001 08:09 AM
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Danny,
If you like that sound (and MANY of us do  ) I would suggest you look to the GUITAR rather than the amp. An Emmons push-pull was used on that recording -- as a matter of fact a 12-string push-pull -- as you see on the cover. It was definitely a hot rod guitar, with pickups at both ends of the neck and a really wild string effect (the gizmos extending over the strings from the changer end. BUT, the sound I hear is what I too call 'that sound': the sound of an old Emmons guitar, usually with a single coil pickup, usually through a Fender tube amp like a Twin. Shortly after that time, Buddy switched to Peaveys -- often a Vegas 400 -- the many times I saw him in the 70s and 80s. The change in amps made little difference in what I heard. Later on, when Buddy was experimenting with the LeGrande, Sierra, EMCI, and other brands, I did notice some difference in tone. The playing was definitely Emmons, but the tone of the different guitars did vary. To me, a Sho-Bud through a Twin sounds like a Bud; a push-pull through a Twin sounds like a push-pull. Same is true for other PSG brands. They have their unique tone, but more of that tone is in the guitar than the amp. That's why the old Emmons guitars are still highly collectable. Jus' my li'l ole opinion. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro [This message was edited by Larry Bell on 15 September 2001 at 10:06 AM.]
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Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 15 September 2001 10:05 AM
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Larry, Thanks for the input. I have listened to (many times) Buddy's "One For The Road" album, and I can tell a distinct difference in sound from that album and the 1975 album. I'm not sure of the year that "One For The Road" was made (I can only guess several years later), but I sure do prefer the more "gritty" sound of the Fender played through the Emmons than what appears to be a PeaVey. I play a 1975 ZeeBee (I inherited from my father when he died in 1977) and am in the process of choosing another amp. After I decide on one I'll see if this guitar is one I want to stay with. Danny |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 15 September 2001 10:13 AM
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Danny,
The ZB guitars are on my personal 'short list' of the best sounding brands. If I were you I would try both Fender and Peavey amps -- be sure to push them a bit -- find a place where you can turn them up and give them a good workout. Even better, if you can also have someone else play your guitar through them, you can listen more effectively. Tone is such a personal thing, only YOU can be the judge. Be aware, however, that one reason many of us began using Peavey equipment is that the Session/Nashville/Vegas series amps were designed specifically for steel, the speakers are more robust than JBLs, and there's more power, providing headroom for louder gigs.I, too, have been admiring, observing, and listening to Buddy Emmons for MANY years and I don't believe he ever does anything for no reason. Wise man, brilliant musician, DEEP thinker. LTB[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 15 September 2001 at 10:20 AM.] |
Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 16 September 2001 07:57 AM
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Larry, I appreciate your thoughtful advice on choosing an amp. I recently started playing again after a long haitus (to be honest, I've never really played professionally), however I do enjoy practicing, learning and trying to emulate the "Emmons" sound. His crisp, clean runs, with a minimal use of pedal movement in going from one note to the next really shows the time and effort he put in, and his obvious talents on the instrument.
I do also enjoy some of the older sounds on the steel guitar. My father played an 8 string Fender (tuned to an E6) back in the early 50's, and I still enjoy that original electrified steel sound. I think too much of a departure from the original sound of the steel guitar is not a good thing for the tradition of country music.
Thanks again for your help, Danny |
Bill Stafford
Member From: Gulfport,Ms. USA
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posted 17 September 2001 05:03 AM
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IT IS NOT THE AMP FOLKS!!
And it is not the guitar either!!!
Bill Stafford |
Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 17 September 2001 07:59 AM
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Bill, Too bad you entered a decent conversation between Larry and I with a dig about how good someone is on the steel guitar. The one thing greater than your playing is the size of your ego. Check your psychic masochism, cause you got a lot of it, bud. By the way, I have a Ph.D in psychology, and one of the reasons I never played steel guitar professionally was because of my father's obvious egotism (which he later admitted and regretted) and because he steered me in a different direction than playing in bands and what typically went with that kind of lifestyle, womanizing, drugs, alcohol, etc.
One more thing. I own a an upscale pool room in Southern California and also play in some professional pool tournaments, and am very conscious of amateur pool players desire to improve (at any age) and how important it is to be encouranging and supportive when they ask questions about particular strategies and equipment. Too bad you can't be a bit more kind. Danny |
Danny Bates
Member From: Fresno,CA. USA
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posted 17 September 2001 08:22 AM
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Quote"because he steered me in a different direction than playing in bands and what typically went with that kind of lifestyle, womanizing, drugs, alcohol, etc" I have a "life experience degree" in music performance and I can tell you that this pre-judging attitude you have toward musicians is wrong. If you want to find some real womanizing, drug taking and alcholics you better look towards your Doctors, Lawyers and other "professionals". Including our ex-president. Personally, I don't think you know any professinal musicians. Can you tell that I hate these kind of blanket statements made towards musicians? Do you think I've had enough of people saying them? Don't tell me .... I've got an ego problem... and because you have a degree you can diagnose it? |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 17 September 2001 09:58 AM
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HOLD IT . . . HOLD IT . . . HOLD IT!!!!
Danny K,
You read Mr. Bill's message all wrong. There is no kinder, more sensitive person in the steel guitar community than Bill Stafford. Although we have only met a few times, I can assure you that what you think you heard is not what he intended.I BELIEVE that what he intended to convey was the (very TRUE) opinion that much more of the sound/tone of a steel guitar is in the hands than in the guitar OR the amp. We have tossed this idea around for years on the forum. Bill is RIGHT. Sorry you misconstrued his meaning, but I'm convinced you DID. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro |
Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 17 September 2001 01:03 PM
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Bill, Danny & Larry, Sorry if I took these comments the wrong way. It appeared that Bill was making a comment about my own personal ability. I know there are many fine, upstanding musicians out there also.
Bill, is Larry correct in his interpretation of what you wrote?
If so, I apologize. Danny |
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
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posted 17 September 2001 04:07 PM
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Danny,You can't beat the sound of a ZB through a Fender amp. Unfortunately, many of the tube amps out there are pretty trashed, so make sure the amp is up to spec. A good way to go is to get a late 60s/early 70's 'silverface' twin that isn't in great shape, and have a good tech go through it and 'blackface' the circuit. Also, replacing one of the stock Fender 12" speakers with a JBL or Peavey Black Widow 12" can sound great. ------------------
www.tyacktunes.com |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 17 September 2001 04:08 PM
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Danny, Bill hasn't checked in yet.But I feel sure he would not put down anyones playing, even if it was really bad.However it is ironic that I was just reading a post about his new power amp.
When it comes to Buddy most agree it don't matter what he's pluged in to,it's gonna sound good.BTW I to think he might have used a twin for this album. My Best-------bb |
Bill Stafford
Member From: Gulfport,Ms. USA
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posted 17 September 2001 08:11 PM
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I am very sorry my comment was taken in the wrong light. That was not my intention at all and I send my deepest apologizes to anyone that may have been disturbed.
Here is a short story of what I had in mind and I think a lot of players know this:
I was at the Joliet Hawaiian show in Illinois a few years back. My amps, two Evans FET 500 with my two extension cabinets were set up on stage. Jerry Byrd, the Master of Touch and Tone, was going on stage. He asked to use my amps. After I plugged him into the amp, he made no changes to the tone settings what-so-ever. (And, he was using a borrowed lap steel that he had never played before). His touch was evident while he touched up the tuning on the steel guitar. When he played, his tone was instantly recognized and his touch and technique was just like all his signature" playing.
Please forgive me again if my comment about this has hurt anyones feeling.
And I have to tell you about your "ego" comment--should I ever have one, my Dad and Mom would come down and immediately kick my tail proper. Thanks for this opportunity.
And if any of you are ever in my area, please give me a call and come over for a visit.
Thanks again,
Bill Stafford
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Grayson Joe
Member From: Raleigh,Ms.39153
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posted 18 September 2001 07:25 AM
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Folks i agree with Bill Stafford, and fully understand what he is talking about, i,v known Bill for many years and he is a very nice person and a great steel guitar player too. i wish that i had the money i,v spent on amp after amp.,p/u after p/u..effect units after effects units trying to get that sound like Buddy Emmons, John Hughey and many others and i still sounded like Joe Grayson, and finely realized that its all in the HANDS!!!------------------
Joe Grayson,Monticello ms |
Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 18 September 2001 03:01 PM
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Bill, Sorry I took this the wrong way. You seem to be a nice person. Thanks for your input on the "hands" part. Appreciate the info from everyone. Danny |
Mike Sweeney
Member From: Nashville,TN,USA
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posted 19 September 2001 12:56 AM
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Well gentlemen I'll tell you what I was told about the [Rainbow] album. I was told that Buddy cut that album with that 12 string push-pull and an Evans Hybrid 300 amp. I also heard he hated the amp and threw it out in the trash but it survived and somewhere it has a happy home now. Ask Buddy if I'm right. I may not be but that sounds a whole lot like that tonal color that those old Evans amps produced. Mike Sweeney[This message was edited by Mike Sweeney on 19 September 2001 at 12:57 AM.] |
Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 19 September 2001 07:38 AM
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Mike, interesting comment about Emmon's amp. Would he have used the Fender Twin in Someday Soon? The sound is similar (I believe) to the Rainbow Album.
Thanks, Danny |
Ernie Renn
Member From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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posted 19 September 2001 11:55 AM
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Here's what Buddy had to say: "I used two Peavey amps on the "Rainbow" album. Any difference from the tone I normally used was due to the ability to mix the sound of two pickups at the changer end of the guitar, one in the normal position and the other an inch or so to the left of it. The two pickups were wired to a balance control that allowed me to have a 50/50 blend of both pickups, or a plus/minus percentage of up to 100% of either pickup. Some songs or parts of songs were recorded at the 100% setting of the second pickup and resulted in an out of phase or Fender related sound". He also added: "As for the Judy Collins album, I believe I used a Standel Custom amp and my rosewood Emmons push-pull".
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My best,
Ernie
The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com
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Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 19 September 2001 12:52 PM
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So we were all wrong.  Not my favorite BE album anyway.  But I still like it.  ---bb |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 19 September 2001 02:56 PM
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* [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 06 May 2002 at 10:40 AM.] |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 19 September 2001 03:07 PM
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The original Emmons amps (Emmons Guitar Co) were apparently built by Standel. I had a schematic for it and a couple of Standel schematics and the layout on the schematic etc looked like they were drawn the same. |
Danny Hullihen
Member From: Harrison, Michigan
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posted 19 September 2001 07:20 PM
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I have to agree with Bill Stafford on this one... "It's in the hands." |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 19 September 2001 07:29 PM
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If it weren't for Bill Stafford, I'd still be searching for a good S12U copedant.
Thanks Bill!
And with respect to Buddy, it's worth repeating...
"IT IS NOT THE AMP FOLKS!!
And it is not the guitar either!!!"
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Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 19 September 2001 10:08 PM
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I hear you loud and clear, Bill. I'll work more on the effect and tonation through my hands. Still looking for an amp. This gives me a lot of help in finding one. Appreciate everyone's input & info. Danny |
Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 20 September 2001 10:01 AM
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Forgot to thank specifically Ernie Renn and Buddy Emmons for taking the time to inquire into the past about the amps used on the two albums. What an honor, getting input from Buddy! Thanks again, Danny |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 20 September 2001 10:36 AM
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I also agree it's mostly in the hands.Buddy will sound good no matter what amp he uses.But have any of you guys seen a top pro using a cheap amp??.I didn't think so!If you think these guys aren't picky about amps then you have rocks in your head.I doubt anyone that responed to this topic has anything cheaper than a Nashville 1000. So should we quit spending our money buying new guitars and amps?Not me.I've heard myself through an early 80's Nashville 400.I've also heard myself through a Web amp and my medium priced rack systems.Trust me I sound better through better amps. --bb |
Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 20 September 2001 10:44 AM
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Danny,
If you are interested in finding a Standel, you have the Standel repair Guru in your town -- Fullerton. His name is Tim Maag -- 714-447-8364. He repaired my 1970 Emmons Twin Twelve (Standel-made). The amp sounded great, but Mike Cass talked me out of it. I currenlt play a Black-faced 1970 Twin Reverb with an old Sho-Bud 4 ohm JBL installed and an Evans SE150 High Output. But then, don't take any advice from me, because honestly don't know what I am doing. But I will tell you that the tooled tolex on my Evans makes the amp smell better than any amp I have ever had.
Chris Lucker |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 20 September 2001 12:05 PM
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ChrisMy intent was not to slam old amps.I'm sitting here with 2 old black face Fenders.The early 80's Nashville I mentioned was just an example of an amp that didn't work for me.I have a 77 model Session 400 that I love.My point, most all steelers that have been playing awhile have a amp or two that we think we sound best through.I can tell you like yours as well.Most are not cheap wheather they are old or new.I dig old amps,if they sound good.
For you folks that are new to PSG,if you are now good enough to get out and play in public and are using an amp that's not really suited for PSG,you might sound better with one of the many amps that the better players use.Then again maybe not."It's (all) in the hands." Good Luck!------bb |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 20 September 2001 12:46 PM
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Furthermore, about the Tolex, Chris.
'Monkey Fur' (Ozite) will never sound as good as Tolex -- tooled or not. Probably doesn't smell as good either -- must admit I haven't had a new Tolex amp in so long I don't remember WHAT it smelled like. Everything I have smells like tobacco smoke and stale beer anyway. Of course, to sound best, it has to be BLACK Tolex and it's even better if it has a rip or two in it.Bobby, I'm with you on the late 70s Session 400's, pod-nuh. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 20 September 2001 at 12:52 PM.] |
Chris Lucker
Member From: Los Angeles, California USA
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posted 20 September 2001 05:14 PM
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Bobby,
I agree with you about the great new or newer amps that are made for pedal steel. As much as I like my Twin Reverb, I do prefer my Evans with my Emmons PP.
And, as a 30 year guitar player I agree with you that it's largely in the hands -- and string tension.
Chris |
Lefty
Member From: Grayson, Ga.
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posted 20 September 2001 05:57 PM
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The Emmons sound is a thing I have been chasing for years. I do believe the hands are 75%-90% of it. The pedal steel is a constant challenge to me, and will be until I die. I finally realized some years ago that trying to find the perfect amp/guitar was fruitless and ever changing, but we still do it. I cannot speak completly objective, because I have allways used a Sho-Bud pedal steel (lefties don't trade often).
My 1971 twin was a good sound, but never had the clean headroom I needed playing out at the time. The Vibrosonic reverb with a 1-15 EVM to me was cleaner, and fuller. I traded it for the Session 500 I still have. It is much more flexable for getting different sounds, tones, and plenty of clean headroom if you need it. I still miss the Vibrosonic though, it had one sound, but a great one.
Don't forget strings, and tension (as mentioned). The old Bill Lawrence, Emmons, and Lashley Extra Lively were my favorites.
I don't know about the new ones, I keep moving around.
Keep on pickin that thing.
Lefty |
George Keoki Lake
Member From: Edmonton, AB., Canada
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posted 20 September 2001 08:05 PM
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Danny, I'm happy you apologized to Bill as I cannot recall ever reading a worse pile of crock written about one of the finest gentlemen and steel guitarist I have ever had the privilage to meet and accompany on stage! As far as I am concerned, Bill Stafford is to the pedal guitar what Jerry is to the lap...both have an unbelievable touch and tone on their respective instruments. Bill does not possess an "ego" as you stated. He always had nice words and comments even for a mediocre player like myself. You have obviously never met this man or you would never have insulted him in this manner. Again, I am pleased you had the decency to apologize. Bill's response was so typical..."come on over when you are in his area". If I were you, I'd gladly jump at the invitation. |
Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 20 September 2001 09:49 PM
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Lefty, enjoyed your comments. George, agree with you about my overeaction and misjudgment of Bill's comment. We're all human and we all have an ego of some sort, and I displayed a very large one. Sorry again.
I have another comment to make about the "sound" though. I've noticed that in the past 35 years or so the "shiver" of the bar has changed more to a "roll", probably with the advent of pedals to the steel. My father's "shiver" back in the early 60's seemed to barely leave the fret laterally, whereas it seems more and more that the (larger) bar is played with a lot of lateral movement, and therefore moving back and forth across the fret. Does this create any error in staying truly in tune?
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George Keoki Lake
Member From: Edmonton, AB., Canada
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posted 21 September 2001 09:50 PM
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Well Danny, all I can tell you, in my 45 years playing the steel, (lap...or better known as the "Hawaiian Guitar"), I have never rolled the bar. I think this "rolling" has all come about in the pedal idiom as they use much larger bars than we 'lap' players use. Hawaiian guitarists call it vibrato and we endeavour to use it with taste...not too wide and not too fast. I feel this is where so much expression comes from in the Hawaiian style of playing.
P.S... If Bill can forgive you, I certainly will without hesitation. Yes, you are correct, I guess we are all human and each of us has a certain amount of ego. Bill's "ego" is almost non-existant as I do hope mine is also. |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 22 September 2001 03:17 AM
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The "roll", as I've been told is a more accurate way. By rolling the bar (provided you roll it properly) all strings will get the same amount of pitch change at the same time. Also rolling the bar is supposed to allow more accurate positioning and coming back to the fret. I started out on a lap steel, many years ago, and then went to lead guitar and bass. In 1969 I went back to Pedal Steel and had to learn hand/bar techniques over. Old time steel was to lift the bar and use the left hand for muting. General Pedal techniques say not to lift the bar (in most cases) and to use the right hand for muting. |
George Keoki Lake
Member From: Edmonton, AB., Canada
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posted 22 September 2001 08:29 AM
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I agree with the muting process. In the early days, I was taught to lift the bar when muting. This always causes a "click" (as the bar leaves the string), and is very annoying. It was also a very difficult habit to get rid of, and I must confess, it is still there at times even though I have made a concentrated effort to do right hand blocking. I still hear many recordings of steel guitarists who lift their bars and frankly, they all sound terrible...."ricky-tick" if you get the picture. re: "Rolling" ... I guess it's a matter of choice. I still prefer a non-roll technic. |
Danny Kuykendall
Member From: Fullerton, CA, USA
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posted 22 September 2001 09:36 PM
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George, Jack, Thanks for your responses. I had lessons a few years ago and both teachers taught more of a "roll" technique. I guess what I ended up with is somewhere in the middle; I wanted to keep some of my father's sound, I suppose. I'm sure there's not much of a difference in pitch, one way or the other. Much of sound from the steel comes from this "bar technique" I am surmising, and therefore is involved in the suggestion of "it's in the hands. " Danny |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 23 September 2001 08:04 PM
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It's in the hands alright but then why don't we all play the cheaper guitars or bother with the pick-ups or amps? It's in the hands but the guitar and amp helps out a bunch for sure not to mention all the different rack systems. The hands are only a part of it. A p/p Emmons sounds good through almost anything.
Mike Sweeney,
I think I seen that old Evans amp downtown a couple of years ago and it had a tag on it that said it was custom made for BE. I heard it had been put out in the trash at BE's house. |
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