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Author
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Topic: Capacitance of George L's Cable
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Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 16 December 2001 02:53 PM
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I was at Blake Hawkins' house this past week and we broke out his commerical grade digital capacitance tester. There has been several inquires here on the forum about the capacitance per foot for the George L's cable. Blake asked George Lewis at St Louis and even they didn't know. Blake had measured several of his "standard" guitar cables that came from Sam Ash and they measured 68pf per foot. The George L's (standard small diameter black cable) consistantly measured 23pf per foot. We measured several different length cables that I had and they all came out with the same 23pf/ft measurement. You can easily see the reason for the brighter sound with the George L's. |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 16 December 2001 08:01 PM
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Yep, that's pretty good Jack! Most standard good-grade cables check out between 30 and 45 pf/ft., but 68 pf/ft is very high![This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 16 December 2001 at 08:04 PM.] |
Blake Hawkins
Member From: Land O'Lakes, Florida
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posted 16 December 2001 08:46 PM
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After I read Donny's reply, I thought I'd check some more of my cables.
Jack, I told you wrong about the origin of the 68 pf cable. It did not come from Sam Ash...it is an older, unbranded cable.
Sorry about that...got confused. 
The cables I did get from Sam Ash are "Groove Plug" guitar cables and they measured 37.2 pf/foot.
Another cable I made with Mogami #2319, obtained from Mars music measured 47.4 pf.
Those are in line with Donny's figures for modern cables.
I checked two other cables, Another unbranded cable which checked 136.25 pf/ft
and an imported plastic cable with molded plugs which measured 171.42 pf/ft!!!
The George L is still king of the heap, and if there is any lesson here...it's to stay away from unbranded, strange cable. 
Blake |
Lyle Bradford
Member From: Gilbert WV USA
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posted 16 December 2001 08:51 PM
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Would it make any of a difference one being soldered and one not? I don't mind George L cable it is the ends i hate. |
Blake Hawkins
Member From: Land O'Lakes, Florida
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posted 16 December 2001 10:11 PM
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Lyle, It shouldn't make any difference in the cable capacitance if the connection is soldered or screwed on or crimped.
What would make a difference is the dialectric in the guitar plug. In a quality plug, such as Switchcraft it is almost unmeasureable. I have seen poor quality plugs with as much as 10 pf.
Blake |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 17 December 2001 09:17 AM
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I've used soldered cable ends & also the George L screw ons. The difference I
measured in capacitance is very little,
and they sound nearly identical.------------------
"Quick Lick" (mp3 audio)
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Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 17 December 2001 10:12 AM
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Any chance you have a "Monster" Cable that you can test?
Just wondering if there's anything to their sales pitch, especially the "directional" thing.
Anybody using them? |
Blake Hawkins
Member From: Land O'Lakes, Florida
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posted 17 December 2001 11:56 AM
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Pete, I don't have any Monster Cable in house. I'll check with my pickin' friends and if I turn one up, I'll check it out.
Blake |
Tom Ward
Member From: Port Charlotte, FL 33952
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posted 17 December 2001 01:14 PM
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Jack, do your George L's (small size) "loop-up" with you on the job or am I doing something I should not? I CANNOT get them to lay flat and straight from steel to amp etc. Maybe I purchased a bad spool. Tom |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 17 December 2001 03:11 PM
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Tom, they can be relatively stiff, not bad but not as flexible as some cable I've seen.But, after they have been used for a while they become a lot more flexible. I don't have any problems with them curling up as long as I orient the plugs (turn them until the loop(s) come out). |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 17 December 2001 05:05 PM
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One more question:
Did you guys do a side by side tone test at the time you measured cable cap?
For example, I've never played through any amp where I had to run the treble on 10.
Would the GeorgeL with treble on, say, 7, sound the same as a cheapie with the treble on 8 or 9?
How much of a change in cable cap can the ear detect?
In the Rec.Electronics usenet newsgroup there is a discussion on Monster Cables where folks say that although the cable is higher grade characteristicly (specs), respected audiophiles couldn't tell the difference in practice.
Go figer?!
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Blake Hawkins
Member From: Land O'Lakes, Florida
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posted 17 December 2001 09:43 PM
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Pete, We did not do a comparison with the guitars and the amps at the time we measured the cable. We knew some of the cables sounded better than others. Jack made his comparisons a long time ago and switched to the George L.
I have a lot of cables, collected over the years and some of them sound pretty bad.
The more capacitance a cable has, the more it attenuates the higher frequencies. How much, depends upon the impedence at which the cable is working. The higher the impedence, the more high notes will be lost for a given capacitance.
If you have all the correct numbers, you can calculate just where the roll off starts and how steep the curve.
Then you could set the amp to compensate.
However, since you judge the tone with your ears and since what you want is not necessarily a flat response curve, then the best thing to do is to try different cables and pick the one which sounds best and is physically acceptable.(IMHO)
We just look at the capacitance per foot as a convenient way to compare different cables and to partially explain some of the difference.
You are correct in that you can compensate somewhat for a dull cable by increasing the treble.
It is generally accepted that on the average, the ear can detect a level change of 1 dB. However, under certain conditions you could detect as little as a .25 dB change. It varies with sound level and frequency. It is difficult to relate it to the cable capacitance as there are other factors involved.Blake [This message was edited by Blake Hawkins on 17 December 2001 at 09:50 PM.]
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John McClung
Member From: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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posted 17 December 2001 10:35 PM
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Anyone know if there's any sonic difference between George L black and the new red cords? I need some more cable, like the idea of the flashy red, but won't trade off any sound degradation for the color. |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 18 December 2001 04:58 AM
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I think the red colored cable is a marketing thing. From what I read some (rock) guitarist wanted red cable and they had some made and he endorses it. I wouldn't think they would screw with a "good thing" (electronic characteristics).As far as the treble setting on an amp. I used to use Belden 8410 cable. I had a Session 500 amp at the time and I don't remember what changes I made in the EQ when I went to George L's cable but it was a shock the first time I tried the new cable. I couldn't believe the difference. That was approx 1985 and I've used George L's ever since. There would be more than the "Treble" setting that would change as the overall frequency response is different (better). I know bass players that also use George L's. |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 18 December 2001 07:27 AM
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Lyle, I don't understand what your problem with the George L's connectors are. They are very stabile and do not cause problems. Make sure you prepare the cable correctly - e.g. cut the end square and then seat it in the plug. Also the set screw must pierce the outer cable jacket to make a ground connection. As with any cable/plug, do not try to remove the plug by pulling on the cable. Only grip the metal plug, to unplug it. I've used George L's since 1985 and have only had one cable end that I redid and even that was unnecessary as I found the problem to be in the jack. |
Hamilton Barnard
Member From: Huntington Beach, CA
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posted 18 December 2001 09:22 AM
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I think George L cable is nothing more than RG174U coaxial RF cable, with a dollar per foot price tag vs 13 cents.
------------------
My Marshalls.
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Don Benoit
Member From: Okanagan Falls, BC
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posted 18 December 2001 10:06 AM
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I have been using the same George L cable and connectors for 10 years with no problems. He must be using a standard commercial cable with his name on it. It would not be economically feasable for him to have a special cable manufactured to his specs. About the connectors...does anyone know if he is the only one who sells them? |
Bob Leaman
unregistered
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posted 18 December 2001 11:38 AM
If anyone wants low capacitance flexible cable, such is available from Belden. Of course, one must be able to install connectors. Soldered connections offer much less noise performance than crimped or screw connections because of point contact oxide rectification. Unfortunately, various colours are not available for those that prefer colour to performance.8281F Flexible Coax, 1 conductor, 23 AWG, stranded (7x30) BC - Bare Copper conductor, Foam PE - Foam Polyethylene insulation, bare copper Braid shield, 95% shield coverage, PVC - Polyvinyl Chloride jacket, 59/U RG, Surge Impedance - 75 Oms, Capacitance 17.3pF/ft. Type. Use: Suitable for indoor and outdoor applications. RG-59/U Type Standard Analog Video Coax. Coaxial. Brilliance. High Flex Version. Since this is suitable for video, one may assume that it carries audio frequencies as well. Cable impedance refers to surge pulse transmission through cable distributed parameters such as cable capacitance and cable inductance. Surge impedance has no relevance to impedance at audio frequencies since surge impedance is tested at 100 megahertz (well above the response of anyone's guitar amplifier).
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Michael Brebes
Member From: Northridge CA
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posted 18 December 2001 02:32 PM
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Any of the Belden "brilliance" series of audio cable should have good results. DO NOT try using 8281 cable. It is video cable and specifically designed for use with 75 ohm terminated video signals. The stuff is very thick and not flexible at all. It has a plastic jacket and is not designed for use where it can get stepped on. I've dealt with this cable in the video industry for years. It's hard enough getting a BNC connector on the stuff. It's too large to fit inside the metal screw-on cover of a Switchcraft 1/4" plug. |
Paul Graupp
Member From: Macon Ga USA
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posted 18 December 2001 03:18 PM
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Jack: Was Belden 8410 the famous Blue Steelers Cable from the last century ?? When they ran out of it, Belden put me on to something black rubberoid 76XX series and it has worked OK but after reading all this, I sent an e-mail to Bobbe and ordered some of the George L's cable and connectors.I must admit to also being a bit leary of mechanical connections of what ever sort. I've always used and preferred solder in any situation but will certainly give the GL's a fair test for my own eval. Blake, nice to see you on these kind of threads with us !! I recognize and value your experise in these discussions. Regards, Paul |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 18 December 2001 04:05 PM
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Paul, 8410 was black and just a heavier duty audio cable. I got a good price on a 100 ft spool one time. I sold some and kept the rest for my own use. I used it until I got the George L's. I wouldn't be afraid of the George L's mechanical connections. I've used them for almost 17 years without problems. I haven't tried a "megger" on them to see what would happen but with a standard DVM there is 0 resistance in them. I think the nuymber of people that use them - all types of musicians not just steelers - speaks for their reliability. |
Ed Miller Jr
Member From: Coldwater,Mi USA
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posted 23 December 2001 02:27 PM
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I have a goode cap tester but I've never tried checking cables. I have some brands atr my music store that I'd like to test. What is the procedure for doing it?
Ed |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 23 December 2001 03:44 PM
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Just connect the tester between the center conductor and the shield on one end. Do not plug the other end into anything. Use as short a test lead as you can. We connected the meter test leads to a female 1/4" jack and then just plugged the cords into the jack.The tests Blake and I did with his Sencore(?) digital tester, it didn't matter if the line was coiled or straight (or somewhere between). When you get a reading, just divide the reading by the number of feet in the cable and that is the capacitance per foot. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 30 December 2001 10:05 AM
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I think it's not very accurate to call the George L's cable bright. It's that the other high capacitance cables are dull. The lower the capacitance, the less the cable will absorb high frequencies. Another thing to notice is that the effect of cables having tonal differences is greater when the impedance is higher. For example if you have a volume pedal that is just a potentiometer, not active or using batteries, then you are running at pretty high impedances and the cable can suck highs from you. Also the longer the cable, the more highs get sucked. If you use an active pedal like a Hilton or a Goodrich with the battery, then the impedance is much lower and the cables capacitance has less effect on tone or treble loss.Brad Sarno |
Paul Graupp
Member From: Macon Ga USA
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posted 30 December 2001 12:52 PM
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Brandy (Bobbe's alter ego....) sent me the cable and plugs from Steel Guitar Nashville and I made them up and used them this week end. Assembly was a snap and I rather liked it compared to the long process using shielded pair cables as before and soldering them as well.I checked my 3rd fret harmonics when I first fired up and then sounded better but the proof of the pudding came later in the night. I get a little guitar weary after three or four hours of playing and things start to aggravate me. I caught myself thinking: Why is this thing biting my ears off, I haven't changed anything on EQ ??? Some what later, I remembered the new cables and recognized the source of all my new high end clarity. I was going to back off on the treble and presence but remembered some advice Buddy Charleton was supposed to have given someone when he was with ET. He advised; "turning the treble up to where you can't stand it and then just before the first song, go back and turn that sucker all the way up !!" A friend had told me back when I first started using Jeff Peterson's Tube-Fex programming (courtesy of Mike Brown at Peavey.) that my notes ran out there like glass and then broke off..... I'll use it this way and see later if I want to back off a bit now. I like the cables and they are just as Jack said they would be. I'll be making some more for my friends here in Macon. Regards, Paul |
Chuck Norris
Member From: Mesquite, TX, USA
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posted 31 December 2001 06:01 AM
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Eric Johnson is the rock guitarist in question. Seems he is quite the audio file. For sometime he was running around the world looking for early version`s of the George L`s that were red. He said they were even better sounding, nothing to do with the color.[Ha!]
George L got wind of it and decided to get on
the retro band wagon and wa-la George L red.
We at NORRIS Family Music can`t really hear any differance, but they appear to be maybe slightly larger in diameter, they seem to not do well with the right angle`s. A lot of our customer`s buy them to divide there cord`s in color`s, for instance if you use the suggested three cord plug in system with the Nasville 1000 or patching rack system`s.
Also guitar player magazine did a shoot out on cords a couple of year`s ago. They put them through a lot of test. The first thing they said was we will judge all other cord`s against the George L because it was hand`s down cleaner better high`s and low`s than anything else out there. Buy the way Monster cable wasnt ranked high at all. And Eddie Van Halen had a $250 cord that also ranked low.
Horizon Vintage I cord`s won because it sounded great and it`s cloth casing was more
road worthy. One of the test they ran was called the gillitine test,they dropped a 20' cymbal,edge down, only the Horizon took that.
In all and we agree the George L rules for tone but is not that road worthy,but then you shure can fix them fast and easy.
For steel player`s who dont dance and do flip`s around there guitar`s the George L is it. But the Horizon is great,they also make a blue transparent cord the is awesome sounding. Quantum audio makes a 16 guage cord called the EP series I believe,that sounds great and road worthy.
Remember steeler`s your rig is only as good as it`s worst link,don`t screw it up with cheap cord`s.
Happy New year
Chuck Norris NFM |
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