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Author
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Topic: Webb and Fender EQ
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Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 11 December 2003 07:05 AM
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I just looked at an EQ analysis of the Webb 614-E amp and compared it to that of a Fender Twin. With the Webb set on tone #2, the most common setting for steel, graphic EQ off, and the tone knobs set in the middle, the EQ curve or voice is very drastic. There's a huge dip at 400Hz, and the treble is louder than the bass frequencies. A Fender twin shows a very similar curve only it's centered at 500Hz. The Webb set this way has more treble and less bass than the Fender. The only way to get the Fender truly flat would be to put the bass on 2, mids on 10, and treble on zero or 1. I dont think the Webb can get that flat. Flat doesn't sound very good. It's interesting to see how drastically eq'd these amps are to get their sound. Maybe that's why guitars dont usually sound very nice when plugged directly into a mixer with no eq voicing. I wonder how much a Peavey amp would voice like a Webb if you did a big midrange dip at 400Hz, or like a Twin if you dip at 500. Peavey users often dip at 800Hz. I modded my Twin to shift that midrange dip from 500Hz to 800Hz. Maybe I'll put a switch in there to have the option of either. Just food for thought. Brad Sarno |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 11 December 2003 07:36 AM
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It depends on what speaker(s) you're using
in each amp. If you swap out the JBL E-130
in the Webb with a Webb (Eminence) speaker or
an EVM etc., the amp becomes a totally different
animal. The Twin tone also depends whether
you're using old JBL D-130's, old Fender label
Jensen's, or newer reissue's by Eminence.------------------
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Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 11 December 2003 07:43 AM
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Jay, I agree totally that the speakers will alter the tone, but this refers to the voicing of the electronics alone, before the signal ever hits a speaker. Brad |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 11 December 2003 08:23 AM
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Brad, the Twin scoop is pretty well known. It's even very prominent in my POD XT Twin model. Which model of Twin were you looking at, and do you think the EQ voicing is much different between different Twin models? What about Dual Showmans and Vibrasonics - do you think they have the same Twin voicing? And how much difference to your ear is there between a 500 and 800 dip. When I play with the Mid frequency selection knob on my NV 400, I don't hear much difference until I get to differences bigger than that. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 11 December 2003 09:36 AM
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David, I was looking at a tone stack calculator from Weber. I think, but I'm not sure, that the Twin voicing has remained the same thru it's history. There are other factors that have changed in the Twin over the years that may also affect the tone but the tone stack values are what I'm looking at. When I did the Twin eq mod that moves the midrange control from 500 to 800Hz, I definitely hear it and like it. There's a distinct bark or honk that most steel pickups exhibit at or around 750 to 800Hz. At the steel conventions I notice that 9 out of 10 players using a Nashville 1000 will dip at 800Hz. As I mentioned earlier, I may install a switch to go between the two frequencies. Or maybe a rotary switch with a few options in between. Or maybe a variable resistor to be able to sweep the range. Hmmm....Brad |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 11 December 2003 11:29 AM
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A good graphic EQ would allow you to put a "dip" wherever you wanted it (even in multiple places), and allow you to control the width of them, as well.I guess that's why I like 'em. |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 11 December 2003 02:13 PM
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Excellent post Brad, very informative. |
Bob Metzger
Member From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA
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posted 13 December 2003 03:08 AM
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The epiphany of all epiphanies: "Flat doesn't sound very good" (I couldn't agree more!)Bob M. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 13 December 2003 12:26 PM
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Bob, I was just messing around and I found I able to get the Webb pretty flat on the analyzer. It was with tone setting #3, bass on 11oclock, midrange on full, and treble back a 9oclock. It sounded horrible on steel. I looked at the actual amp curve instead of the simulator. The dip on tone #2 is right at 550Hz. Huge dip, like 20dB. The dip on setting #1 is at about 375Hz. Also a huge dip, even huger. The midrange control seems to be a very broad band centered around 1.3kHz. Very wide, no real dip or notch so speak of. The dip created by the tone selector circuit is much sharper. The bass and treble are Baxandall type eq's. That's sort of like a high and low shelf. The low eq boost peaks out at about 30Hz. The treble seems to peak out above 20kHz so the effect is a sort of rounded hi-shelf that extends way down into the midrange. I'll try to post some screenshots of the curves. Brad Sarno |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 14 December 2003 11:20 AM
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Just a thought for people with sweepable mids like on a modern Peavey or a rack preamp. So often people dip at 800Hz because of that loud barky frequency that steel pickups make there. The Webb setting#2 has me wondering how other gear would sound if you did a dip at 550Hz instead to see if you can get that Webb-like voice. Try a real steep cut, like -12db to -20db at 550Hz. Just curious.Brad Sarno |
Chris Erbacher
Member From: Sausalito, California, USA
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posted 14 December 2003 11:36 AM
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hey brad, i also have a webb and am thinking about getting a twin because i prefer the sound and i find your post really informative. i was talking to a tech about the differences and he was telling me it was probably in the preamp section, he also said he could make the webb sound more like a twin by changing the preamp to be more like the twin. do you think this is possible, or have you ever thought about this? i was thinking about having him change the setting to the far left on the tone setting to give a voice like that on a twin. what are your thoughts on this? i'm wondering if with all the knobs and stuff on the webb right now, if it is possible to get that kind of sound. the problem with me is understanding what all the knobs do and how it use them to do what i want. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 14 December 2003 11:50 AM
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Chris, that's funny you should ask. I just came back from the other computer with the tonestack calculator. I was comparing the Webb to the Twin again. After comparing the real analysis of the Webb to the Twin, I realized that they are very very similar. The Twin preamp has the mid dip happening at about 500Hz. The Webb is also right in there at 550, just about the same sound. This is with the Webb on #2. The Webb is different in that it has a separate tone shaping section (3 way selector) and then tone controls. The Twin is a simple tone stack. The net result is that the curves work out do nearly identical. They are so close that I'd say dont mess with the Webb, just use #2 and adjust tone to taste. And leave that EQ section off, it degrades the signal and even Jim Webb says only use if if you really need to tweak an odd sounding instrument. I think setting #2 is as close as you'll get to the Twin voice. The main differences you'll hear between the two amps is going to be more based on the nature of solid state vs. tubes. I'll look into it more and let you know what I find. I actually modded my Twin to shift the mid to about 800Hz. It still sounds like a Twin only I can dial out the pickup bark a little better. I may switch back to 500Hz and compare again. Maybe I'll put a switch in the Twin to have both options. Brad
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Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 14 December 2003 12:06 PM
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This is interesting because I use setting number two because I find that it sounds most like a Twin. Also, I leave the EQ "ON". I find that it adds a little grit or growl to the guitar when I'm sliding on strings three and five or five and eight. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 14 December 2003 01:44 PM
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You know, I've heard of people like Tommy White and others who like that EQ on but set flat. There's nothing better than your ears to judge what sounds best. I just have avoided it so far because it's a cascade circuit where the signal has to pass thru 5 active stages in series and many of the tone caps in there are ceramic. This is 5 stages of signal "degredation" and on principle I've avoided it because the rest of the amp circuit is so simple and pure. I will mess with it because again, whatevers sounds best is best and there are no rules. Thanks Kevin. Man you're right, a ZB thru a Webb...  Brad |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 14 December 2003 02:21 PM
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I remember way back in '78 when I bought my
first Webb, I had read that John Campbell modeled the preamp tone after the Twin Reverb amp. He sure did his homework I guess.
You've got the basic Twin tone & then some! |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 14 December 2003 02:50 PM
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It's sort of a Twin with a bonus. The "Twin" sound comes from the voicing section, setting #2, but you still have a hi-fi type 3 band EQ in the preamp circuit. And, of course, another bonus with the 5 band if you need it. Also, the input device is a FET which sounds and acts sort of like a tube. There is another FET right out of the 3-band EQ section. It's like 2 tube stages. The reverb section also has a FET first stage. Pretty cool, tubey where it needs to be, SS where it serves best. Smart people made that amp.Brad Sarno |
Chris Erbacher
Member From: Sausalito, California, USA
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posted 14 December 2003 03:44 PM
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this is funny, are both you guys playing zb's? i have a '71 d-11/10 with 8x5. i like the sound, but something about that old blackfaced fender with the d-120's really grabs me, and i just can't seem to get it with the 15 inch k-130 and the webb, but it does sound really nice. something i have also tried which i like is to play the webb thru a 2-12 inch k-120 cab for a little more punch in the lower end. when i play with the band and drum kit, the lower end needs to be pushed more to get it to be more than just a vibe in the mix, but with the 2-12's the bass seems to be more taught (if that is the right word), stronger. the lead guitarist keeps asking me why i don't just get a twin and be done with it, so you can see my situation. are you guys using the 15 inch cab or the 2-12 and what are your results? what are your settings on the left side of the amp? this post is zbest |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 14 December 2003 04:04 PM
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Chris, ZB D-10 through a Webb. Treble 2, Mid 2, Bass 7-8. Equalizer on, set at "0". Most important, a Boss RV-3 between the volume pedal and amp. It cleans up the signal dramatically. I won't play the amp without it, especially with the ZB single coil pickups. Amp reverb set to "0". Sounds like a Twin
to me but better in the low end. Monster tone. I know what you mean about the D-120's.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 14 December 2003 at 04:08 PM.] |
Chris Erbacher
Member From: Sausalito, California, USA
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posted 14 December 2003 10:49 PM
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thanks kevin, thanks for the sharing of info, sounds pretty similar to what i tried today. seems the reverb was taking my tone away. i will try a pedal after the volume pedal to see if that brightens up the sound a bit. are you using a 15 inch or two 12's, and are you using the rv-3 just for what it does to the circuit or for reverb? i wish there was a way to use my d-130 for the webb, but so far i'm afraid to push it. i've heard that the d-130's don't like the low end much on the c-6, but i'm not sure about the e-9, but the tone is amazing for low volume stuff. anyone out there use a d-130 with their webb and able to use it at band volume with the e-9 without hurting it? i wonder if it is possible to use a d-130 and a k-120 in a box with a circuit that could be dialed in to give more power/signal to one speaker over the other, in essence using the d-130 for the sparkle, and the k-120 for tightness in the low end. it would be a heavy cab though.
hey brad, have you tried z black box with zb? if so, how is it? i re-read your post about the black box and seems like a great idea, especially in light of the conversation that has occured here in regards to the twin and webb comparison, seems almost like having the best of both worlds with a tube before the solid state stuff. i'm interested to find out more. thanks for your info. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 15 December 2003 06:44 AM
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Chris, it's really hard to gripe about a pair of D120's. The D120 is my favorite guitar speaker for 6-string electric. I've got one in my Deluxe. They sure sound good for Jerry Byrd, Tom Brumley, and others on steel. For sessions I'll often use that Deluxe for steel. I like 15" speaker for steel because of the warmth and fullness. But everytime I play thru a 2-12 Twin I'm reminded that 2-12" speakers has more surface area than a single 15 and is as warm as you need. Still the 12 and 15's have different resonant frequencies. For C6 I think you do need the 15". 12"s are tighter in the bass though. I thought about putting my 8 ohm D130 in my Webb. You'd likely blow it with loud C6 playing. The power of the Webb into 8 ohms is about 150watts. The speaker is meant to do about half that. You may get away with it on E9 but it's iffy if you play loud for an extended period. A k130 is a bit more powerful I think, like 100 watts. It may do pretty well in the Webb at 8 ohms. You'd have clean headroom from the amp so you wouldn't be sending the speaker any square waves. It's unlikely you'd be sending full power all the time, only in peaks which the speaker could probably handle. Close though. I feel safer with the E130. The ZB into the Black Box is awesome. It does what you'd expect. It enhances that already great ZB sound. Brad |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 15 December 2003 07:38 AM
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The FET's (field effect transistors)in the
Webb are current dependant, just like tubes.
Regular transistors are voltage dependant.
That probably accounts for the preamp's tonal
characteristics. |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 15 December 2003 10:34 AM
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Okay Brad. Whats a Black Box? Chris, the answer is BOTH. The RV-3 I find is an awesome
delay reverb unit. You can tailor and mix both the reverb and delay in increments. Much better than the amp reverb. The pedal also acts as an impedance matching unit to clean up and sharpen the tone. Any active pedal does the same thing between the amp and volume pedal. Like using a matchbox.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 15 December 2003 at 10:41 AM.] |
Murnel Babineaux
Member From: Jennings, Louisiana, USA
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posted 15 December 2003 11:55 AM
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Vacuum Tubes have an infinetly high input impedance. This is especially useful for Violin and/or piezo electric pickups. The impedance of these pickups are around the 1,000,000 ohm mark ( remember that impedance changes with frequency, it opposes the flow of an AC signal and/or audio signal). That's why a Violin sounds very bad when plugged into circuits with an impedance of less than 500K. Go tube amps !!!!!!!! MB [This message was edited by Murnel Babineaux on 15 December 2003 at 11:56 AM.] |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 15 December 2003 01:09 PM
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Kevin, here's the thread on the Steel Guitar Black Box.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/004510.html Enjoy, Brad
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