I love my '69 Twin, especially when the power tubes begin to get pushed just a bit. That kind of smooth punch and slight crackle/sparkle on top is THE sound for my taste. It makes me think of Lloyd's Live at Panther Hall and Brumley's Buckaroos Live. What great tones. The Twin is heavy, but its 80 watts have never been to low for me, even in loud situations. But we're dealing with gravity as we make our tone decisions. There are lots of players who like all that bass frequency headroom that really does take 200+ watts to make happen. Tom Brumley's main amp is a modified '59 Fender Bassman with a D130. It's less than 50 watts and he swears that it's almost always been plenty loud for him. That amp is also lighter than a NV400. I've played a number of steel gigs with an old Fender Deluxe Reverb with a JBL D120. It was sometimes barely enough power, but the tone was great and it filled a small club. That amp has 22 watts of power. It records incredibly well.

Another factor worthy of discussion is how tube rigs are much easier on the ears than SS rigs. The tube rig will be less aggrivating on tinnitus and less damaging to the ears than the SS.

When I started playing steel again a couple of years ago, I lucked onto a NV 400 (with low end mod) for $200 and snapped it up. I was happy with it until I started playing with a loud rockabilly and alt-country group in rock clubs. When I took that solid state amp up to top volume to keep up, it sounded like crap. I then started on a quest for a tube amp for pedal steel. I have tried everything that comes through the huge local Guitar Center and bought a bunch of amps on the Forum and Ebay. My observations mirror much of the above comments.

• With pedal steel you need about four times more usable (clean) volume than a regular guitar (because we attack notes with the volume pedal more than half off, reserving the rest for sustain; and we play with finger picks instead of a flat pick; and we fret with a bar held in our hands, instead of holding the string against a solid fret board; and because we sustain and swell chords that are prone to harmonic distortion). Guitar players don’t understand that. For regular guitar, a 25 to 50 watt amp at top volume is plenty loud for rock clubs and dance halls, and they only need 100 watts for a concert hall (and these days you can usually mike a smaller amp through the PA). A steeler needs 200 to 400 watts just to keep up with the stage volume these days. Peavey and Stereo Steel are the only amp makers who understand that.
• Since 100 watts is the top volume for most guitar amp lines (tube or ss), the huge selection of modern amps out there (mass produced or boutique) is mostly useless to steelers due to inadequate volume alone, not to mention the shrill mid-rangey EQ that is unsuitable for steel.
• For a ss amp, the top third or even top half of the volume range is useless (sounds like crap). So you need a 300 or 400 watt amp to use the 100 watt range you need to keep up with guitar players using 25 watt amps. If you don’t need that top volume range, the several makes of ss steel amps will give you a decent, clean, but sterile tone. Many older traditional country players use only moderate volume and are happy with these. You can also mike these for loud venues and get by okay. I was not happy with these at rock club volume levels, and miking the amp is not always a viable option in these places. The sterility at high volume is not pleasant, and any clipping at high volume sounds horrible, especially when trying to mix with the creamy, rich-textured tube sound of guitar players. Elephant f**t is the descriptive term that comes to mind. I was not alone in these thoughts – the other members of the group also hated my ss tone.
• Most tube guitar amps are made for “crunch” (break up that softens the pick attack), “touch sensitive early breakup” (distortion when cranked past mid-volume), and compression-sustain (sustained overdrive that replaces what steelers do with the volume pedal). Fender silver-face amps (not black-faces) were built to avoid all these problems. They play clean to the top. This was a marketing disaster that doomed these amps among rock and blues players, who to this day disdain these “master volume” amps. But these are the best amps ever made for steel. Unlike ss amps, their warmth and sizzle are best at top volume. A 100-135 watt SF Twin or Vibrosonic (with an “o”) will blow away a 200 watt NV 400. A 180 watt Super Twin will blow away any solid state steel amp made.
• A black-face Twin like Lloyd uses will sound warmer at moderate studio volume, but will not have the clean head room of a silver-face for live use. And a lighter 60 watt SF Pro Reverb will probably have as much clean volume as a BF Twin.
• SF Twins and Super Twins are way too heavy as combos (75 to 100 lbs). My Super Twin Reverb in a Dual cabinet weighs a manageable 50 lbs., and regular Twin heads range down to 40 lbs., depending on the model. This also gives the flexibility to set the amp next to the steel for easy tweaking, while placing the speaker(s) wherever they are needed. I find it easier to match my volume to the stage volume with my speaker(s) at the back of the stage. The head cabinet also gives one the flexibility to use 15s or 12s, whatever ones preference.
• The Vibrasonic (with an “a”) is a pc-board reissue (I’ve had two) that does not sound as good as the old hand-wired silver-face Twins, Duals and Vibrosonics. I don’t know if it is the absence of hand wiring, but something about the newer circuits causes worse tone. These reissues sound better than ss amps, but not as good as the silver-face amps. I have not tried an “Evil Twin.” I also haven’t tried the reissue Twin custom 15, but I suspect it has compromised tone like a Vibrasonic. The new hand-wired reissue Tweed Twin sounds very good, but only has about 60 watts. Also, for steel I prefer the richer tone of 6L6s to the more chimey tone of EL 34s. My SF Pro Reverb with a 15 has about the same power, sounds better to me, and cost about a quarter as much. But if the volume is adequate for you, and you like a thinner sound, the new Tweed Twin might be good for you. Also, the Peavey Delta Blues and Classic 50 are low volume (30 watts and 50 watts), low cost option with the chimey sound of a Fender Tweed.
• Many modern tube amps have “clean” channels that theoretically might sound as good as the old SF Fenders. I have not made a systematic study of these, but have not found one that sounds like a SF Fender. They are either too clean and sterile, or not clean enough. Most of them are too low powered, even the top of the line 100 watt heads. The best SF Fenders for steel were the last of the line 135 watt models with the ultra-linear transformer, or the Super Twins (180 watts). I have also not made a systematic study of component (rack-mount) tube pre and power amps. They are out of my price range. You can get a SF Twin or Super Twin in the $500 to $700 price range. I got a Super Twin chassis (which is all I wanted for a head conversion) for $350.
• It would be nice if a boutique maker would make a 200 watt tube head for steel, but I’m sure the cost would be outrageous. It would have to be modeled after the SF Fender tone. I tried a new 300 watt all tube Bassman head. It was plenty loud, but too clean. It didn’t have the tone. As far as whether the pre or power amp is tube or solid state, the sound I love seems to be specific to 6L6 power tubes (don't care for EL 34s), so I am skeptical about a tube preamp with a ss power amp. Also, I have a Music Man with a ss pre and 6L6 tube power amp. It sounds better than any all ss amp, but not as good as an all tube amp. It is incredibly small and light and will probably blow away a NV112. I can hear those rich 6L6 power tubes, but I miss the creaminess contributed by the tube pre amp. So I'm thinking all-tube is the only way to go.
• Now about the live versus studio thing. I think I feel opposite to some of the opinions above. A tube amp certainly sounds better in the studio. But with the way steel is mixed down today, and played back through the average car radio or home stereo, I don’t think much of the tube tone comes through. You might as well use a ss amp and tube modeling (which sounds good at low to moderate volume). I don’t think anyone would notice the difference (this applies more to background steel recording, and not necessarily to a solo steel album). But live, at rock club volume levels, that’s where you need real tube tone. My POD XT Twin model at top volume came out sounding like the NV 400 I played it through. Maybe a more powerful hi-fi ss amp could have reproduced the model adequately. Line 6 makes the Vetta 300 watt head as their top of the line. So they seem to be aware that you need lots of ss power to reproduce the tube models at high volume. But Dave Graffe recently informed us that the Vetta uses the old POD 2.0 models rather than the good XT models. Maybe you can program in the newer models, I don’t know. But why bother, when for half the price I can have a real Super Twin that sounds gorgeous at top volume.
• So we don’t currently seem to have affordable high volume tube amps being made for steel. The good news is that today you can learn about all this on the internet through things like the Forum, the Fender Amp Field guide, and Ebay.
• My current goal is to have a complete line of SF Fenders, so I never have to carry more weight than I need (I’m 58 with an artificial hip). I have a Super Twin in a head cabinet (180 watts, 50 lbs.), a Dual head (100 watts, 46 lbs.), a Pro Reverb combo with a 15” Blue Marvel speaker (60 watts, 60 lbs.). My next project is to put a Vibrolux chassis (40 watts) in a custom cabinet with a 15” speaker, for playing with quiet acoustic groups.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 April 2005 at 11:14 AM.]

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There are ways to lower the damping factor of a SS amp

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I imagine my next one will be even lighter.

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most people... don't use them above the middle of their volume range

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When I play in bigger venues like the Boulder Theater or outdoors; basically anywhere there's a soundman, they mic my amp but I could play up to the house system if I HAD to (painful though it might be). Does the sound/tone degrade badly up there? Dunno, never tried and I'm not sure how you would. There's a natural recoil factor that would prevent me from really assessing the tone anyway.

Regarding my Vibrasonic; like an idiot I immediately got online and ordered an entire complement of new tubes including new 6L6wgt+ or some such supposedly rated up to 20w higher output; plus a combination of Mullard and EH AXs & ATs. Plug it all together and listen expectantly for... what? After two weeks I notice a growing hummm so after much switching and swapping discover it's the EH AT7 in socket 4. Moved it to socket 5 and problem solved.

Is it 'breathing'? Dunno. I do know it does sound better when I piggyback it on top of my Peavey 4x12 cabinet but that defeats the whole purpose; having ONE amp for both applications (steel and tele).

So NOW I went and retrieved my RealTube II and am preamping the Tele and sending it to the second input of my Session.

SFs gradually became cleaner and more powerful, and a master volume knob was introduced in an attempt allow some intentional distortion at low volume levels by overdriving the preamp and cutting back the power amp. This was not very successful, because the power tube distortion is as desirable as the pre-amp tube distortion. Six-stringers bad-mouth these "master volume" SFs for this simple reason. The hand-wired circuitry is fine, and you can simply dial the master volume all the way up and only use the channel volume (or more sensibly, just set both volumes the same at all times). In the late '70s an ultralinear transformer was introduced that kicked the clean power up about 30% (the Twin went from 100 watts to 135 watts). All the bad-mouthing of these SF amps by 6-stringers is irrelevant to pedal steelers. That extra clean headroom in the SFs is exactly what steel needs. These are all hand-wired, all-tube amps, with steel tone to the bone. After the SF era, the guitar amp world began chasing the intentional distortion 6-stringers craved, and the clean SF sound went the way of the dinosaurs. But there are lots of these great old dinosaurs out there at much better prices than the black faces.

The Super Twin and Super Twin Reverb came along at the end of the SF era. Although they have a black face plate, they are all silver-face circuitry inside. They have six 6L6 power tubes, an ultralinear transformer, and put out 180 watts that are clean to the top. They have about 50% more power than a 135 watt Twin - so it's like a Twin with a volume knob that goes to about 15. There are two on Ebay now that are mistakenly rated as 100 watts. There's also a Twin Chorus on Ebay that is mistakenly rated as 400 watts. This is a ss amp, probably about 100 watts. The 400 watts is the power draw, like the wattage of a light bulb. Most 100 watt tube Twin-type amps draw about 300 watts. That is a completely different kind of watts than the power output to the speakers. Also, the output wattage usually listed below the speaker jack of a Fender tube amp is really the recommended power handling of the speaker. The actual output of the amp is around 20% less that that.

Steelers are not the only ones who like the Fender clean tube sound. Country 6-stringers love them, but don't need the high power models. Surfers have always loved them, and some blues and jazz guitarists like them. But the legions of rock guitarists worship at the altars of the black faces, Marshalls and Boogies.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 April 2005 at 10:37 AM.]

The Tweed era amps typically had lower B+ voltages on the plates of the tubes, no bias control. There were several styles on inverter circuits used. Some had more gain stages, such as 4 in a low power tweed Twin! Only 3 gain stages in a Blackface Twin Vibrato channel and two on the normal channel. Tone stacks were surely different as well. I do love the tweed amp sound. I am presently using a 1959 Clone in a Tweed Twin cab with 2-Jensens (1956 and 1957 reconed by Ted Weber) and an identical cab for an extension with two EV Force 12's for my Tele. Loudest 40 watts I ever heard and tone to the bone! My steel amp is an old Session 400 and I do love it. I usually mix it with my 1990's era Dual Professional for steel. Sounds like the classic Fender tone on steroids!

[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 07 April 2005 at 10:57 AM.]

I have a roomful of Peavey amps. 3 of them are 80's vintage SS (LA, NV, and Chorus 400's), and one is a 90's tube amp (Ultra 410). Nice amps all.

Last Sunday night I was invited to a jam session. I played steel, the guys on both sides of me were brothers, retired, both playing older strats (old style knobs on them, not sure the age). One played through a Silverface twin, the other a Fender "Classic" (it was a little smaller than the twin, not real sure what was in it.) The tone they got was breathtaking. Both were fingerpickers, Brent Mason style, and just tore it up.

One week ago I would have agreed with the SS fans, but the first song made a believer out of me. Presence and tone wise, my NV400 wasn't even there next to those Twins.

I have always liked the idea of a hybrid SS/tube steel amp. Several others including Brad Sarno have mentioned that they like the hybrid approach.

Anyway, I have been spending way too much time over the winter comparing steel amp combinations and I have discovered a pretty darn great sounding combination.
Most of the hybrid configurations discussed involve a series arrangement. By that I mean that the signal flow first goes through a tube circuit and then a solid state circuit, etc. or vice versa. I had been thinking about a parallel hybrid set up. So I got a tube amp and a solid state amp and split the signal into each equally. After adjusting tone controls a bit.... This rig sounds fantastic. It seems that all of the sweetness of the top end of the tube amp dominates the upper frequencies and all of the solid low mids of the SS amp dominate in that region. Neither amp on it's own sounds nearly as good as the combination. Also when I compared two tube amps together or two SS amps together, not as good as the Parallel Hybrid™ set up.

I have more than a dozen amps so I tried a couple of different SS/Tube parallel rigs and in every case it's great. I have not had a chance to try this on a session or live yet. I suspect that it might take some work to get it right on tape (or hard-disk) or in a PA, but from the drivers seat, it's awfully good. More info to come if anyone is interested.

That was when Leo Fender quit/sold/whatever
"Fender" and started MM; I think?

I forget the model of the amp, but it had either 2-12's or 4-10's. It was a good amp, but still a little edgy compared to the all-tube Fenders.

I also bought a comperable MM "stratocaster" electric that was one of the latest axes to be outfitted with active preamp[s] for the pickups. It sizzled.

Don't have either, now.

FWIW,

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www.tyack.com

Something that hasn't been discussed, and maybe because it's a technical issue, is why the tone of SS versus Tubes is different. The answer lies in the fact that tubes, with their transformers, when pushed, will emphasize EVEN order harmonics, and SS devices, when pushed, emphasize ODD order harmonics.

Even order harmonics are musical in nature and, to the ear, have a decidely pleasant tonality. They add that "softness" or "warmth" to the tone. SS, with it's odd order harmonics sound harsher and cause a more "sterile", "hard" tonality. If an amp is driven to distortion, tubes will produce a soft, almost compressed distortion, whereas SS will produce a buzzing, almost crackling kind of distortion. Most players know exactly what I mean...they've heard it.

This is why the two sound different to many with discerning ears. In the first third of a good amp's power rating the sound is clean and clear and differences between the two types of amps are hard to hear. But, push the amps close to their maximum clean power and you'll definitely begin to notice this difference.

A steel, as has been eloquently described earlier, needs clean power. So, as long as a SS amp is operated within it's "clean" range it will deliver satisfactory sound. A tube amp can be driven further up it's power range and still be satisfactory because it's distortion characteristics are more musical and almost pleasing to the ear.

To me, this explains why a big 400 watt SS amp is needed compared to, say, a 135 watt Twin. It's all in the harmonic content of the sound. Peavey's DDT compression circuits were designed to avoid that nasty distorted range and keep things clean as it approached it's max rating.

Great efforts have been expended to design SS circuits that minimize this odd order harmonic content, which tubes do by their very nature, and to give the player pure, clean power. But, the tube "warmth" is still missing....thus the popularity of the tube preamps.

IMHO, steel amps need that tube sound, but the resulting weight is a significant hurdle which may never be overcome.

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Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman)

Going to head cabinets solves many problems. A Dual head (100 watts) is 46 lbs. and my Super Twin head (180 watts) is 50 lbs. I have two 15" Marrs cabs that are 24 lbs. each. And a heavy duty Eminence 15" in a closed-back slotted cab that weighs 48 lb. These split rigs take two hands or two trips, but seem more manageable to me than the big Peavey ss amps, and will give more tone and volume than two NV 112s (42 lbs. each).

TC

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Never again would I have those crystalline,
crackling highs, the beauty of the breathing sound of the tubes, the
warmth.....And my career continued until 1988!

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. . . and a celebrator of English language to boot! Lloyd, you are welcome to visit my English classroom anytime!

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Yeah, that's it, use the "Fender Twin" model. He doesn't even know his signal is going straight into the Podxt from that DI box. Look at him, he's happier than hell..-Well Known Anonymous Engineer-

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Speaking of hybrids, how about something like a Vibrolux chassis that has both tube pre amp and a low-power tube power amp (one or two 6L6s for 20-40 watts), plus some kind of third stage solid state boost - maybe a powered speaker in a separate cabinet? That way you get the interaction of the pre and power tubes, but also get a lightweight solid state boost.

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That's exactly what I do these days when I want to play clean and loud. I run my THD Bivalve into one half of the THD 2X12" cab, then run from the line out on the BiValve into a little AER acoustic amp (100-200 watts?) which then powers the other half of the THD cabinet. Very light, and sounds really good.

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Then to the semiconductors … germanium died young, silicon rules, goodbye output transformers, hello low impedance inputs, goodbye filament hum, hello hiss, hello toroidal power transformers, and less problems re replacing deformed electrolytic filter capacitors … quite a journey!

Add to the above assortment, speaker size/magnet type and structure/coil wire type, shape/cone material/bobbin material and size/cabinets = open back, closed back, plywood, solid wood, plastic, tuned, ported, single, multiple, bi-amped, with and without horns … electrostatics anyone?

Now attach to any combination of the above your favorite steel (different structures, mechanics, pickups, bars, string types/gauges, quantity, scale lengths, with and without volume/tone controls, different volume/tone pedals, cable types and lengths, effects.

Let’s not forget the varieties of musical style/taste involved, from the Bakersfield, to the Texas folk, to the Nashville varieties, to Rock, Blues, Hawaiian, and some big band, etc; then there are the styles of J Byrd, Billy Robinson, Julian Tharpe, Curly Chalker, and Bill Stafford that are not the main stream tone/sound.

Plus we have the venue environment = everything from the bedroom, to the bar room, flatbed, outside stage, concert hall, recording studio(s) of great variety.

Pity the poor chaps at the front end of this chaos = the steel player, trying to satisfy themselves, the band, the sound men, the producer, oh yeah, and the customer/fan.

If there were a single amp/speaker combo that had the capability of being “best” for any given player in any given situation, the player would have to spend all their time learning to control/set up the beast, and much less time improving their technique/performing skills.

I have a problem with most amp/speaker combos; my low string on the 14 stringer is a 112 gauge C … that is low, low, low. A large number of “steel amps” don’t know what to do with that frequency range … speakers either. Many U12 & 14 players face this problem of low end capability. It appears that most steel amps (and other stringed instrument amps) do not address the frequency range problem. Has anyone tried a keyboard amp?

Aside from the amp/speaker damping issue, there is also the combining of frequencies in the speaker itself; if the cone is activated (moves back and forth) by a low note (say 100 Hz), and a high note is added at the same time (say 1000 Hz), the amount of Doppler on the high frequency will be a function of how much excursion the cone makes (think volume) … so speaker quantity, size, etc. will effect tone differently with volume.

Does the amp have a tendency to change the volume and or phase relationship of frequencies within the spectrum as a function of volume? Remember the “loudness” control? It was to compensate for our ear/brain spectral sensitivity at different volume levels (Fletcher Munson curves). Most steel/amp/speaker combos have their “sweet spots” re volume/tone...

My feelings are; that if “IT” is NOT in the hands/heart then no instrument and subsequent equipment collection/selection is going to help much. If “IT” is NOT in the player/instrument, then no subsequent signal chain equipment will help much. However, poor equipment can sure diminish the desire for playing progress!

Chris; I suspect that the “sound” you want to get is probably associated with something you heard and liked in your past … we tend to like what is familiar, call it “good”, which leaves everything else as “less than good”. My personal feeling is that neither tube, nor semiconductor, nor is hybrid “best” … there are good and not so good in all categories, and for different purposes. Time goes by; technology tends to change, some of which gets employed in instruments/amps/etc. …even in sound cards and computer speakers. That which was an “art” tends to become a science with time, complete with a language, and methods to measure the parameters involved so that they can be repeated, and compared in an objective way. With the measurement equipment and software available today, “that sound” can be defined, but the musicians (statistically speaking here) will not likely be interested in learning the new language.

For some, the joy is in the playing, for some in the performing, for some of us in playing with the toys … I am one of the latter, I like my toys and analysis.

It is interesting that one can tell that the steel player is ______ , even when heard thru a transistor radio with a 4” speaker!

Note I'm not saying that it doesn't sound great, it does, but the BiValve has an edge with my Franklin for clean stuff.

For a loud BiValve, just get a THD stereo 2X12, get a cheap light transistor power amp, run the line out from the BiValve into the power amp, and have one speaker driven by the BiValve and one by the transistor. I did this at the Little Red Hen a few weeks ago and it kicked *&^% with a loud band where I wanted to play clean.

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[This message was edited by Dan Tyack on 14 April 2005 at 04:02 PM.]

Their rack power amps are ss with toroidal power transformer ... They make a good line of tube amps also. Good products = best bang for the buck plus good service.