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Author
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Topic: 6L6 - Groove Tubes
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Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 24 May 2005 11:30 AM
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I am about to place my order for some Groove Tube 6L6's. Lots of different descriptions/tones/colors available.For those with buy'n'try experience, what would you recommend for :
a) Les Paul/classic rock crunch
b) Tele / country lead tones
c) Steel guitar Thanks ! [This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 24 May 2005 at 11:42 AM.] |
Craig A Davidson
Member From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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posted 24 May 2005 03:22 PM
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Tom, Get the No. 7 Groove tubes. They are so clean. I put them in my Twin and couldn't believe the clean tone.------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200,Hilton pedal, Jag Wire Strings
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Ricky Littleton
Member From: Steely-Eyed Missile Man from Orlando, Florida USA
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posted 24 May 2005 07:29 PM
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Craig hit it dead on the money!Ricky... ------------------
Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd, Nashville 112,Hilton Volume pedal, Peterson VS-II Tuner
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah, PX4 Pandoras Box |
Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 24 May 2005 09:13 PM
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Thanks guys! I'll get the No 7's for Steel.How about for my Les Paul (clone...). Do you think those 6L6 CB (the "coke bottles") will give me something like the breakup of an EL34? |
Keith Cordell
Member From: Atlanta
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posted 25 May 2005 07:49 AM
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The 6L6 CB will definitely not sound like an EL34. http://www.groovetubes.com/tubes.cfm go to that link and look around, there is a tube selection guide that will help. Big bottle tubes are great, my favorites actually- but they are definitely not for the british OD tone. ------------------
Sierra S8, Rickenbacher T-Logo Bakelite lap steel, Peavey Delta Blues, Regal Dobro, Teese RMC2 Wah, Proco Rat, Lap Dawg bar
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Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 25 May 2005 01:49 PM
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Double what Keith said. There's something about a 6L6 tube in that when it starts to break up, it still sounds clean and actually seems to get warmer sounding. When an EL34 starts to distort, boy you know it. You know, that Marshall crunch. Brad Sarno
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Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 25 May 2005 01:51 PM
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Keith - I see that the CB's (coke bottles) are actually preferred by blues players "for their early breakup".The EL's breakup early, too, at least compared to the typical 6L6 GC. How would you characterize the sound of the CB's compared to the more conventional late breakup of the 6L6 GC? What artists, genres, etc. work best with the coke bottles? Damn - I want to buy and try a bunch of 6L6 offererings - but a 'tube library' gets awfully expensive, especially with power tubes at $25 per. I've already got a few hundred $ tied up in 12A*7s' and they're half the price..... [This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 25 May 2005 at 01:57 PM.]
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Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 25 May 2005 01:56 PM
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Hey Brad - we posted simultaneously.I actually was hoping you'd chime in. Could you give me some pointers on selecting a few trial sets of 6L6's. I play about 20% steel guitar, and 50% rock guitar, and 30% country in my sets. I am restoring a Heritage VTX for all jobs. Note that it has a half power switch, and requires 2 pairs of 6L6's |
John Knight
Member From: Alaska
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posted 25 May 2005 04:09 PM
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Not to sound stupid here, but what do you guy's mean by No.7? The 7th listing under the 6L6 family.------------------
D 10 Thomas with 8&6, '61'D-10 Sho-Bud 8&3
S12 Knight 6&4
Nashville 400 and Profex II
81' Fender Twin JBL's
Asleep at the Steel |
Craig A Davidson
Member From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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posted 25 May 2005 07:56 PM
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Groove Tube makes sets of tubes numbered 1 thru 7. The higher the number the cleaner the tube. I just happened upon these at a new store last week. This store just got a Carter in and the manager was looking for an amp or two to sell with the Carter. He is looking at Evans and already has the Fender franchise so he is ordering a Steel King. Sorry to all you Peavey users but they don't carry them. |
Vern Wall
Member From: Arizona, USA
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posted 25 May 2005 09:20 PM
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Tom, don't feel bad about prices. When I was a ham in high school tubes were $3 to $5 and my wages were only $.60 an hour! |
Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 25 May 2005 10:37 PM
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Vern,Wow - that is one real bad "Tube to Earnings ratio". Geez - did you have to mod lightbulbs to keep your amps running back then ?
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jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 26 May 2005 04:22 AM
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Tom, let us know how the Heritage comes out, what speakers you're using, etc, I have two of them, one with BW's, the other with a Scorpian and Blue Marvel combo. I got them at $200 each and I thought they were cool amps with good power at that price, I haven't messed with tube replacements yet, but heard somewhere the tubes last longer in them compared with other amps. Have you tried this place http://www.thetubestore.com/6l65881types.html [This message was edited by jim milewski on 26 May 2005 at 04:25 AM.] |
Bill Leff
Member From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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posted 26 May 2005 06:53 AM
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Is Groove Tubes really "making" tubes now? They used to just buy tubes and test them and rate them for their characteristics. My Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue came with GrooveTubes (6v6s). They sounded lousy and one burned out quickly. I replaced them with a set of NOS Brimar 6v6s and rebiased, and the amp instantly perked up. For interesting reading on tubes check out:
http://www.webervst.com/vstbbs/bbs.html
Click on "Tubes" in the left column. There is currently a thread about Groove Tubes in there titled "Groove Tubes - Force or Darkside?" I have dealt with these folks and had good luck with them: http://www.kcanostubes.com |
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
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posted 26 May 2005 04:14 PM
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Hey Jim,Why don't you try swapping one of the Black Widows with one of the Scorpions or Blue Marvels. I've been mixing JBLs or Black Widows with Celestions/Eminence speakers and I love the way it sounds. It has the jbl like chime but is way warmer than all JBLs or BWs. ------------------
www.tyack.com |
jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 26 May 2005 05:53 PM
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Dan, yes mixing speakers works well, get a nice frequency coverage, the Marvel Scorpion works well, and the BW/ Marvel should as well, but those BW's are heavy, the Heritage with the 2 BW's is heavier than my Session 500, but the amp does have casters, the BW's I have are the paper dust cover, thinking maybe they're more EVM sounding than JBL, I may give it a shot |
Andy Zynda
Member From: Wisconsin
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posted 27 May 2005 08:55 PM
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Bill is correct, GT does not manufacture tubes. The import, relabel, and resell. They have purchased rights to manufacture some few certain tube types, and a small few components are made actually in the USA, but then the parts go overseas, for fabrication and assembly and then get shipped back.
-andy- |
Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 27 May 2005 09:28 PM
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Thanks, all, for the good advice.I decided against Groove Tubes, and ordered through "The Tube Store" - which has a more transparent marketing approach (e.g. OEM tubes) and what appears to be a more sophisticated matching process. I purchased 3 matched pairs of [Svetlana] SED Winged C - pairs with early breakup, medium breakup and late breakup [rock, country, steel ?) - so that I can determine which characteristic best matches my playing style, amp/settings, etc. I've read reviews on these tubes that put them somewhere between 'average' and 'excellent' - but the review that made all the difference is the one where the tester declared that this tube seems to have a bit of both the British and USA classic tone(s) - depending on surrounding circuitry. I guess I'll begin the experiment when they arrive mid next week. Can't wait ! |
Keith Cordell
Member From: Atlanta
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posted 28 May 2005 05:51 AM
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Keith - I see that the CB's (coke bottles) are actually preferred by blues players "for their early breakup".
The EL's breakup early, too, at least compared to the typical 6L6 GC. How would you characterize the sound of the CB's compared to the more conventional late breakup of the 6L6 GC? What artists, genres, etc. work best with the coke bottles? They are commonly thought of as blues tubes, as they have a pronounced "sag" and are extremely open sounding; they sparkle when you play clean, and are best IMO when you don't have the amp fully cranked. Their best characteristics show when you are just on the edge of overdrive. Damn - I want to buy and try a bunch of 6L6 offererings - but a 'tube library' gets awfully expensive, especially with power tubes at $25 per. I've already got a few hundred $ tied up in 12A*7s' and they're half the price.....
No cheap tickets to heaven, my man... ------------------
Rickenbacher T-Logo Bakelite lap steel, Peavey Delta Blues, Proco Rat, Lap Dawg bar |
Michael Whitley
Member From: Oxford, Mississippi, USA
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posted 28 May 2005 01:25 PM
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Tom, I've had good luck with Svetlana's 6L6s. For more British, there's supposed to be a modern KT66 out there which (supposedly) interchanges with a 6L6CG, although I'm not familiar with it. For more dirt, I've liked the Sovtek 5881s, and for more clean, I like NOS RCAs, when I can afford it. |
Michael Whitley
Member From: Oxford, Mississippi, USA
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posted 28 May 2005 01:41 PM
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...and have had WONDERFUL luck with used eBay RCAs, tested, from the middle period. For clean. Your milage may vary. |
Lefty
Member From: Grayson, Ga.
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posted 30 May 2005 07:25 AM
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I have the Svetlana SED Winged C 6L6s in my Mesa Boogie Mark II 1-15 right now. I love the clean tone (warm and musical), and the distortion is good also. They are a bit warmer thn the Mesa Boogie tubes.
Happy so far.
Lefty |
Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 31 May 2005 09:08 AM
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I have to give some applause to The Tube Store . com's (and Canada Post's) service.I ordered on Friday afternoon, and Monday afternnon, the tubes arrived. Haven't tried them yet - but the turnaround was impressive. |
Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
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posted 31 May 2005 11:12 AM
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quote:
Bill is correct, GT does not manufacture tubes.
Says this right on the GT website: quote:
Groove Tubes bought it’s present building in August of 2000. The new GT home has close to 12,000 feet of office, lab, and manufacturing space and is located in the small town of San Fernando, California. The new building has allowed expansion into actual tube production, and Aspen was blessed to be able to acquire the entire production line from the old G.E. company upon it’s closing. This line will produce the original GE 6L6 and 6CA7 power tubes to the original specs and sound. Actually, at NAMM 2002 in Anaheim GT proudly introduced the first effort from this adventure, showing the new GT6L6-GE to rave reviews...it was generally confirmed this new GT tube is the exact equal of the famous 6L6. Jimi Hendrix recorded may of his hits with this tube in his Fender Twin Reverb.
------------------
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Andy Zynda
Member From: Wisconsin
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posted 01 June 2005 08:56 AM
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The truth is:GT bought a bunch of NOS General Electric 6CA7 plate material from Richardson Electronics about six years ago. They also acquired some tooling to stamp 6L6 and 6CA7 plate structures. I don't know if they do the stamping in the U.S. or if they sent the tooling and material to China (I suspect it is the latter), but the tubes are certainly assembled, flashed, and pumped in China. (Clipped from WEBERVST board. The same info can be found at the Amp Workshop. GT makes just barely enough part content in the US to legally state "Made in USA". They make the plate material here. That's all) The Emperor has no clothes...
-andy-
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Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
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posted 01 June 2005 04:01 PM
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Good to know...------------------
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Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 01 June 2005 08:20 PM
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 Problems This used amp I picked up has some power amp output problems (no wonder it never had power tubes with it). Here's the symptoms:
1) Lots of Hum
2) Guitar sound comes through fuzzyy.
3) one 'side' of the power tubes heat up to glowing and near meltdown hot (eg. one of the push or pull 'sides' - not the inside pair, or the outside matched pairs). I can guess what's happening from a waveform point of view - one half of the signal (say, the '+' half) is clipping hard, the other half is amplifying normally. In terms of diagnosis I am less inclined to guess. This is a Peavey Heritage VTX which has a power amp section that includes a few stages of op-amps, then a few stages of pairs of transistors in push pull configuration, including a matched transistor pair connected to the cathode of the inside power tube pair. Any thoughts on what is most likely wrong here ? Is there any probability that its the output transformer? Hope not. Let me know your thoughts.[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 01 June 2005 at 08:24 PM.] |
jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 01 June 2005 09:03 PM
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I had this problem with a twin, it was a 56kohm resistor connecting two pins on the output tubes, as you mentioned the two tubes were way to bright, I'll see if I can find a schematic to let you know, it was an easy fix |
Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 02 June 2005 02:13 PM
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Thanks Jim,I contacted Peavey who have indicated that this problem arises in this 'very unique design' when the transistor that feeds the cathode burns out - normally due to a tube failure/arcing. So I ordered a replacement set of transistors. |
Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 27 July 2005 09:31 AM
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Thought I'd update this thread.The Fixup to the Heritage took all of an hour to disassemble the amp and remove the two sets of transistors that drive the cathodes in the rather unique tube power amp circuit. I never even electrocuted myself. This cost $20 in parts. I do wish to brag that I got this amp for less than US$100 cause it wasn't working....and now its perfect, a buck a watt - not bad for a combo.) I've A/B'ed the three sets of Svetlana Winged C-6L6 GC tubes I bought from the tubestore.com (excellent service BTW). These were a 17, 22 and 27. The pair of 27's breakup the nicest when the tubes are overdriven - meaning, the harmonics remain musically balanced. The lower number tubes seemed to distort the bass frequencies prior to the higher harmonics, giving a flubby sound. Very happy with that tube. Silky smooth for steel, and has a nice grind with six-string, and works great for all out rock and roll, too, with quality preamps. All in all - super happy with this PV hybrid.
[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 27 July 2005 at 11:44 AM.] |
Leon Grizzard
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 31 August 2005 11:42 AM
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I have a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, but it just doesn't have the sparkle of my '73 Twin Reverb. Would replacing the stock Groove Tubes tubes with the Groove Tubes 6l6GE's help? |
Keith Cordell
Member From: Atlanta
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posted 31 August 2005 07:02 PM
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Leon, that is the amp that I recently bought for playing guitar and lap steel through. I strongly recommend my amp techs advice on making it great;
Get an Eminence Cannabis Rex speaker. VERY nice low end, makes the amp sound much more balanced through the EQ spectrum.
Change the tubes- I got Svetlana 6L6's and EH 12AX7EH's with a Phillips 12AT7 on the phase inverter. This tube is an essential change if you are going to use the amp for any steel work, it reduces the gain that creates overdrive. For a total cost of less than $500 I have as close to a tweed Deluxe as I can afford to get, and it is a very reliable amp.
The Cannabis Rex, BTW, is a hemp cone- lovely shade of green, made me wanna look for rolling papers, LOL- and is a slower breakup than the stock speaker with a much better sound. If you can only manage one of the 2 things, I'd get the speaker. It's a pronounced improvement. [This message was edited by Keith Cordell on 31 August 2005 at 07:04 PM.] |
Leon Grizzard
Member From: Austin, Texas, USA
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posted 01 September 2005 06:42 AM
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Thanks Keith. I just play guitar through it - Texas Swing. The other mod it needs is to move the knobs out of the hole in back to the front where I can see the darn things.[This message was edited by Leon Grizzard on 01 September 2005 at 06:45 AM.] |
Keith Cordell
Member From: Atlanta
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posted 01 September 2005 07:37 AM
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If all you are using it for is guitar just use the 12AX7EH's. The 12AT7 is unnecessary. |
jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 01 September 2005 02:45 PM
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Tom, I used my Heritage Sat nite with the Blue Marvel and Scorpion combination with fantastic results! All the power and no breakup, the guitar was a push pull, I used a Genesis 3 for effects, ya, you got a great deal, hope you like the amp |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 01 September 2005 07:58 PM
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Groove tubes is a marketing machine. They buy the same tubes as most other suppliers and put their name on 'em - do some snake-oil and mirrors testing to "rate" them and sell them in sets at inflated prices.The only tube they make is the 6L6GE - and most of it is actually made in China. Enough assembly is done here they can claim "made in USA". For NEW tubes, I much prefer JJ's. But you'd be better off going online to a NOS (New Old Stock) tube supplies like KCA NOS Tubes or "Lord Valve" and buying real GE's, Sylvanias, TungSols and the like. Not cheap, but they'll outlast the Groove tubes and IMO sound much, much better. The only Groove Tubees I keep around are for experiments in amps I'm not sure of - if they blow, I toss 'em. Eh. No great loss. |
Tom Gorr
Member From: Three Hills, Alberta
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posted 02 September 2005 12:12 PM
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Jim - I bought a blue marvel that I'm going to be swapping in for 1 of the scorps. I also am wiring in a DPDT heavy duty switch to switch between the two speakers. Also some other neat mods I'm working on. This amp is an experimenters dream, and it sounds terrific. |
Harold Dye
Member From: Cullman, Alabama, USA
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posted 03 September 2005 05:11 AM
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I have two MM heads. One is a 65 watt and I am unable to identify the tubes in it. The other is a 150 watt with 4 Groove Tube 6L6B. I think they may be number 5's, at least that is what is written on the tube with a pen (not stamped like other writing on the tube). Both these amps are in perfect condition but there is a difference in tone. I know different amps sound different but my concern here is the tubes. The 150 does not have the warmth the 65 has. I see from this thread GT number 7's are prefered for steel,when using GT tubes. I never play 6 string thru either of these, just steel. Any suggestions on a better sounding tube for the 150. |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 03 September 2005 08:07 PM
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Harold - there's no way you're pulling 150 watts out of 4 6L6's. The plate voltage in those amps is also usually way too high for 6L6's - most have EL34's in the power section and still hit them with 500 volts or so.Are you SURE those are 6L6's?? |
Dan Beller-McKenna
Member From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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posted 06 September 2005 08:01 AM
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Jim (M) and Tom,I just picked up a Heritage VTX this weekend and so far I love it. Two questions:
(1) The half power mode seems to be almost as powerful as the full power mode. Should that be? (Of course, I haven't dared to turn the thing up past 2 or three yet!) (2) Any suggestions for dialing in a standard E9th tone? I play a Dekley S-10 with a stock single coil pickup. I got pretty close just going through the main channel. Anything to be gained on the phaser (2nd) channel? Thanks! Dan ------------------
Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, Peavey Heritage VTX
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