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Author
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Topic: Question About Cables
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George Redmon
Member From:
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posted 27 May 2005 09:51 AM
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i build my own cables, as i believe if made correctly, that cables you make yourself are the best cables you can have. I am currently using Canare Star Quad, and Mogami Neglex Quad. I was told to simply solder the hots together, and stick the ground on. Well they do work fine, better then most of the other "Store Brands" out there. Such as ProCo
GeorgeL's, Rapco, Whirlwind, and the not so hot Hosa cables. However, i had someone tell me now, that 3 leads, are not as good as say one .020 hot lead! are they correct? ALSO one more quick question, those fancy $120 Moster Cables, they make, a certain one for Rock Guitar, one for Bass, one for keyboards..do those cables really know what is being plugged into them? doesn't OFC do only one thing? Transfer signal? I use only switchcraft, or Neutrik connectors. I wonder, if i use one of those fancey Monster Keyboard cables on my steel, will my steel sound like a keyboard? Perhaps if i fork out $120 for a fancy Monster "Rock Guitar" cable..i can sound like Robert Rudolph..ya'spoose?------------------
Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....
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John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 27 May 2005 01:14 PM
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I am guessing that the decision to use 3 center conductors or one, depends on the construction of the cable.It would be possible to get more capacitance to ground with 3 conductors(which would result in a loss of high frequencies). Whether it is too much, depends on the cable.
You could try it both ways and give it the old "ear" test.
I make a lot of cables to use in my home studio but for playing steel guitar on the job, I like the George-L solderless plugs. If you would happen to break a cable, you just cut it, stick it in the plug and tighten the screw. I bought a roll of Geo-L cable and some plugs. I then made cables to the length I need to interconnect my equipment. |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 27 May 2005 01:29 PM
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There are a lot of high priced "botique" cables around. Altough generally you get what you pay for, price does not mean they are better. Same way with the "gold" connectors. Gold is a better conductor but at audio frequencies and with typical guitar cords being plugged in and out, the gold connectors are a waste of $$.The Electrical characteristics of the cable and the density of the shield is a better gauge of audio frequency cable. George L's cable is around 25 or 26 pf per foot. I have some US made cables I bought from American Musical Supply and they measure about the same as the George L's (and sound about the same). The resistance of the cable is another important measurement. Finally, some cables, such as the original Bill Lawrence cables had a special anti-static applicaton to the inner cable and that cut down on potential noise. Guitar player did tests on various brands of guitar cables 3 or 4 years ago, including some of the high priced "botique" cables and the George L's was rated #1. I would never "stick" a ground or any other wire on to a connector. You have to have both a mechanical and electrical connection. Just "sticking" it on, or just clamping it to the cable relief point doesn't guarantee a "zero resistance" connection and it has the potential to loosen with use. Same way with many "imported" cables that are mechanically held together with solder (poor construction). |
T. C. Furlong
Member From: Vernon Hills, Illinois, USA
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posted 27 May 2005 02:06 PM
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You had to bring this subject up. Well, I can't help myself. So here I go again!The Naked Truth about Guitar Cables 1) A guitar cable is a capacitor. (By definition, because a capacitor is two conductors separated by a non-conductor)
2) All guitar cables have a capacitance, which can be measured by a capacitance meter. This measurement is scientific and can be consistently repeated with the same result.
3) The more capacitance a cable has, the more capacitive reactance.
4) Capacitive reactance is what kills tone in a high impedance signal such as a guitar signal. It causes loss of signal, garbling of definition, lack of clarity and diffused bottom end.
5) AC signal (a guitar signal) sees capacitive reactance as a short across the pickup. The more reactance, the more the signal is shorted out Numbers Don’t Lie Monster Bass 21’: 860 pF (40.9 pF/ft)
Monster Rock 21’: 870 pF (41.4 pF/ft)
Monster Jazz 21’: 1330 pF (63.3 pF/ft)
Klotz 20’: 410 pF (20.5 pF/ft) •information from Klotz audio interface systems, a premium cable manufacturer I have tried many cables over the years including very expensive boutique hand made cable, where cable itself is hand-laid to exacting specs including extra distance between the shield and the center conductor. There are major differences in cables and in my opinion Monster has never scored very high. That being said, I do give them points for clever marketing, not unlike Bose. TC Furlong
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jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 27 May 2005 05:42 PM
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somewhere I heard Jimi Hendrix used the old molded coil cables (look like the telephone cords), I would think these are past pico farads into the micro farads, a shunt for high frequencies. I did take some cords and put a high frequency wave in one end and measure the output with a scope and there really is a big difference in cords, I keep my amp close to me and run as short cord I can |
George Redmon
Member From:
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posted 28 May 2005 10:23 AM
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ok guys..slow down a bit ok? make me the best cable i can buy..ok? what do i need to buy?...i have pretty good soldering skills as i worked for the ...gulp..Telephone company for a few years..and all i did was solder..but anyways..please no radio shack junk!...what cable..what ends..that simple..and 20Ft is as LONG as i will need..wish i knew all the jargon..but please..HELP! list what to buy..and i will order it..if i have problems..i'll beg for help...i actually find that small GeorgeL's cable a little stiff and hard to roll up..but if it is the best..so be it...but i really prefer a little better cable! ------------------
Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....
[This message was edited by George Redmon on 28 May 2005 at 10:25 AM.] [This message was edited by George Redmon on 28 May 2005 at 10:27 AM.]
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Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 28 May 2005 02:37 PM
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The George L's is THE cable. It's only a little stiff when it's new. I'm an ex amp tech and also have worked on mainframes, etc (data tech) and the George L's are one of the best cables on the market. I used to be NASA soldering certified. There's no soldering involved with a George L's cable. The cable end is cut square and then inserted into the custom plugs and all you do is tighten a set screw just enough to pierce the jacket and make connection with the ground shield. The old WECO patch panel cords/jacks are no good for audio. |
Paul Honeycutt
Member From: Colorado, USA
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posted 30 May 2005 07:41 AM
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I use MilesTek or Neutrik connectors with Belden cable. I've had the same cables for years. I don't think electrons are as picky as some people think. |
Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
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posted 30 May 2005 12:10 PM
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Not instrument cable, but check out how these guys are making speaker wires:
http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html ------------------
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Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 30 May 2005 04:11 PM
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quote:
Well they do work fine, better then most of the other "Store Brands" out there. Such as ProCo GeorgeL's, Rapco, Whirlwind...
Well, If they work so great for you, then you shouldn't really be bothered by what anyone else says! Or do you have some...doubts?  |
Hook Moore
Member From: South Charleston,West Virginia
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posted 31 May 2005 06:11 AM
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Donny has a great way with words 
I agree with Jack too, I like GeorgeLs a lot.
Hook------------------
www.HookMoore.com
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Glenn Suchan
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 31 May 2005 06:31 AM
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I use a short-length George L cable between the guitar and the volume pedal (someone gave me this cable and I use it because it has a nice angled connector to plug into the endplate on my steel). The cable between the volume pedal and amp is a approximately 10 ft long. I constructed it about 25 years ago from Belden 8410 audio cable and Switchcraft 1/4" plugs. Nothing is soldered. I've never had a problem with signal loss, buzzing, or signal cut-out. T.C. or Jack, do you know was the farad rating is on the Belden 8410 cable? It hasn't been made for many years, but it can hurt to ask. Keep on pickin'!
Glenn |
Glenn Suchan
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 31 May 2005 07:03 AM
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T.C., Jack, I found the info on Belden 8410. It seems it might still be manufactured. At any rate, it's about 33pf per foot. This makes my 10' cable about 330pf.Is anyone else using Belden 8410 cable with their amplification system? Keep on pickin'!
Glenn |
Jon Jaffe
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 31 May 2005 07:48 AM
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I am using George L cables I made in 1980, as well as newer ones. They sound great. They are incredibly reliable and compact. They can be made any size on stage. Wireless is the next best choice, IMHO. |
Michael Garnett
Member From: Fort Worth, TX
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posted 31 May 2005 12:28 PM
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So for us quasi-nerds out there, pray tell what the consequence of capacitance of instrument cables is. Four stats were given, but they're for cables we're not likely to want or afford. How many picofarads per foot come from the new George L cables? It would seem that the coil of the old timey cables would cause more coil impedance than capacitance reactance. So what you're saying is, the lower the capacitance (smaller number of pfffs), the better the high-end response of that cable? If the GeorgeL is truly the best, should we expect to get a ridiculously low capacitance number? Inquiring minds want to know. -MG |
Glenn Suchan
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 31 May 2005 01:08 PM
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Michael, you've answered your own question. The consequence of high capacitance is a reduction in high frequency response. Basically speaking, a capacitor or capacitance will react as a "low-pass" filter. A low-pass filter passes low frequencies fairly well, but attenuates, or blocks, 'high' frequencies. A resistor or resistance, on the other hand, basically functions as a "high-pass" filter. A high-pass filter fundamentally, is the opposite of a low-pass filter in that it passes high frequencies fairly well, but attenuates or blocks, 'low' frequencies. Regarding the quality of George L cables, Jack Stoner stated the George L cables create about 25 or 26 picofarads per foot, which is fairly "transparent" to high frequencies. I've been happy with Belden 8410 cable, which generates about 33 picofarads per foot. Here's a somewhat interesting note: Whirlwind cables were using Belden 8410 cable in the 1970's. I'm not sure what they're currently using. Keep on pickin'!
Glenn |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 31 May 2005 04:23 PM
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Glenn, I have some old (70's) Belden 8410 cable. I used these for a long time - until I found George L's. A MAJOR improvement in sound with the George L's in both frequency and signal level.If you are getting too much highs, the 8410 cable will take care of it. I've never measured the 8410 cable that I have. I'll have to do that, maybe Thursday while I'm at Blake Hawkins place as he has a Sencore capacitance tester. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 31 May 2005 04:39 PM
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Since I usually cut the highs back on my amp, does that mean the Monster and other Guitar Center cables I use are adequate for my purposes. I use TrueTone pickups and a Hilton pedal. The Hilton pedal also has the highs cut back. I try to use gold plugs, not for the sound improvement, but because of the corrosion resistance. The George Ls seem to be good, but I was a little worried about the flimsy unsoldered connections. Has anyone ever actually measured a George L with the plugs on to see if the capacitance lives up to the billing? What about an AB comparison of George Ls with the plug and play connectors versus soldered plugs? |
Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 31 May 2005 11:05 PM
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Does anyone know if there's big difference in sound between the cheaper 2 dollar pedal connectors and more expensive connectors. I'm talking about the little cables that go from pedal to pedal. I don't hear a difference myself, but musicians have told me the signal is not as strong when using those little cheap ones. Anybody? |
Michael Garnett
Member From: Fort Worth, TX
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posted 01 June 2005 03:31 AM
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Chris, I'm thinking for a 6" patch cable, you're definitely not going to notice a difference. These cables are rated in picofarads per foot, with usually a 6' to 10' cable in question (15-20 times longer). I'd say don't bother with getting anything other than the el-cheapo patch cables for your pedals. Now somebody is going to tell me I'm wrong though ...  -MG |
Vern Wall
Member From: Arizona, USA
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posted 01 June 2005 03:53 AM
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Gold is a good conductor, but it's more important that it doesn't corrode. THIS is what happens when you don't have gold contacts. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 01 June 2005 07:48 AM
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It's important to note that cable capacitance is far more of an issue when it is being driven by the pickup. If you have a buffer stage like a Hilton Pedal, Matchbox, Black Box, etc. then the cables that follow that active stage will be far more immune to capacitive tone loss. The active buffer stages are lower impedance and have more current drive power than a passive pickup so capacitive reactance is less significant. Also the fact that the pickup is inductive is another contributing factor. I've found that it's much harder to notice the tonal differences in cables when used in an active buffered stage. It's quite easy to hear the tonal differences in cables when used in the passive, pickup-driven stage. It does get strange when you start to compare cables that have identical capacitance ratings but they sound different. Maybe it's the insulator, maybe it's the "grain" or purity of the copper, maybe it's the connectors. Cables do have their own sound. The one thing I still have a hard time with is cables that claim to be directional. Audio is AC and those electrons spend as much time flowing one way as they do the other. The only legit (IMHO) directionality with cables that I've seen is when you use a 3 conductor cable where the two inner wires carry the signal and the outer shield is only connected at one end. That way the sheild acts only as a shield and not a signal carrier. And then there's speaker wire......
Brad Sarno
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Jon Jaffe
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 01 June 2005 07:49 AM
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DD, There is nothing flimsy about a George L connection. As far as the electrons go it is as wide as the Mississippi. Moreover, the actual moment arm for the cable to wiggle is less than the best of strain relief and solder on a typical 1/4" plug. And if you are ever on Henry Ave give my regards to Delasandro's. |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 01 June 2005 07:52 AM
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Oh yea. I'd like to gripe about the small George L's right angle plugs. Other than my playing, they seem to cause me more trouble than any other part of my steel rig. The ground connection seems to get bad pretty easily, even if the screw-cap is tight. I much prefer the straight connectors. Brad |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 01 June 2005 08:23 AM
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The George L's right angle connectors do leave a lot to be desired. I have a couple "spare" right angle connectors collecting dust as I didn't like them and had connectivity problems with them. |
George Redmon
Member From:
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posted 01 June 2005 08:46 AM
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Glenn, i use to use both the Belden 8410 and the 8412 as well..boy were those a bear to solder, i used a lighter, to burn off that white hair sheild to get to the bare wire, and the hot lead was real rubber..they were sure good in their time..and i think the outter jacket was REAL rubber as well..i kept
a couple i made so long, that they actually
"Dry Rotted" like an old tire! it was good cable. Ya know, someone told me i should never use a "Coiled Guitar Cable" either...wonder why? i use one on my 6 string! So it's, small dia. GeorgeL's no right angle plugs then....right? ------------------
Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....
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Hook Moore
Member From: South Charleston,West Virginia
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posted 01 June 2005 10:40 AM
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I have had no trouble with the angled connectors at all. I do use just a touch of loctite on the threads. Also I may have a new/improved batch of the connectors too.
Hook
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www.HookMoore.com
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Jon Jaffe
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 01 June 2005 06:01 PM
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Brad, I do like the older style angle plug better.  However, I have had no problems with the brass ones! The chrome plated ones seem to lack "puch". The right feel. Jon |
Paddy Long
Member From: Christchurch, New Zealand
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posted 01 June 2005 06:49 PM
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Like Hook, I have had no problems with the George L right angled plugs but the only one that gets use is the one that plugs into the guitar. I have several others in my rack setup but they don't get unplugged at all.I also used blue belden cable for about 20 years because they were about the best available at the time - but I did notice a big difference in tone and clarity when I changed to George L's. Then I discovered the Black Box !!! Tone Heaven.
[This message was edited by Paddy Long on 01 June 2005 at 06:50 PM.] |
George Redmon
Member From:
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posted 02 June 2005 09:37 PM
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Mr Hinson, i am sorry i didn't answer your question before now...
quote:
Well, If they work so great for you, then you shouldn't really be bothered by what anyone else says! Or do you have some...doubts?
I like to update my gear, from time to time. As you should know. New advancements, in cables, strings, picks, bars, are coming along everyday..i for one, like to keep up with the latest technology available? Every advantage helps one play better.And yes mine seem to work ok. But if there is something better, i want to have it if at all possible. And sir your statement....
quote:
you really shouldn't be bothered by what anyone else says!
Bothered?
Ah Yeah....i have cables...boy do i have cables..My girlfriend, calls my studio,..
George's Cablerama And Connector Emporium!
this is only 1 bay of 3 that i currently have, plus my mixer, recording station, playback...i can send private photos if you would really like to see cables!!! ------------------
Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....
[This message was edited by George Redmon on 02 June 2005 at 10:23 PM.] [This message was edited by George Redmon on 02 June 2005 at 11:25 PM.] [This message was edited by George Redmon on 02 June 2005 at 11:31 PM.]
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Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 03 June 2005 04:49 AM
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Here is the actual capacitance that was measured on a "1978" Belden 8410 cable with 1970's vintage (made in USA) Switchcraft 1/4" plugs. The cable length with the plugs is 12 ft. The total capacitance was 547 pf. Divided by 12 + 45.58 pf per foot. However, the connectors can add about 10 pf to the overall capacitance. The cable alone would be near the published 35 pf spec. The readings were made with a Sencore capacitance tester with digital readout. An interesting observation on the 1/4" connectors and with low capacitance cable, it would seem the quality and capacitance of the connectors can affect the overall response of a given cable. e.g. if you have a low capacitance cable but poor grade of connectors it could present an overall "high" capacitance cable and affect the overall frequency response of the cable. |
Glenn Suchan
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 03 June 2005 06:43 AM
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Jack, thanks for the update on the Belden 8410 cable with Switchcraft 1/4" plugs. Wow! 455.8 pf out of my 10-foot Belden cable. I don't notice any significant loss of tone. I guess my Emmons D10 p/p makes up for the difference... However, I might be surprised if I switch to George L's.In my previous post I mentioned resistance basically functions as a high-pass filter. My good friend, forum member and electronics guru, Bill Terry reminded me it's inductance, not resistance that functions as a high pass filter. Thanks for setting me straight, Bill ! Keep on pickin'!
Glenn |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 03 June 2005 12:17 PM
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Glenn, it's a 12 ft cable, but still that is the cumulative capacitance of the overall cable with a Switchcraft 1/4" jack at each end. I'll have to measure a George L's 1/4" jack whenever I get back down to Blakes, just to see if there is any difference between it and a good US Made Switchcraft. |
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