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Author
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Topic: Echo - Reverb or Both?
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Alan Simm
Member From: Lancashire, U.K.
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posted 21 January 2006 12:04 AM
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Hi GuysBeing new to the PSG,I was wondering whether I should use Echo or Reverb,or even both? I would be interested to know what other players use. Thanks Alan
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Nic du Toit
Member From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa
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posted 21 January 2006 01:16 AM
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Both....but just a little. The trick is to get it to sound as a natural extension of your sound. i.e. you should not be able to hear it, but miss it when when it's not there! Also, your style of playing will ultimately determine what effects, if any, you are going to add to your sound.
Regards,
Nic------------------
  Nic du Toit
1970 Rosewood P/P Emmons D10 Fatback 8x4
Peavey Session 500 unmodfied
CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
CD "Steel Smokin'"
Veruschka's CD "Don't Dream it's Over"
Click here to E-mail us. |
Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 21 January 2006 10:40 AM
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Exactly what Nic said. |
Ray Montee
Member From: Portland, OR, USA
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posted 21 January 2006 07:11 PM
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It's like putting some accoustics into the room where there is none. Heavy carpets and window draperies and stage curtains all absorbe sound at a tremendous rate.By using "just enough" reverb....you can install in that room, some seriously lacking sound qualities; like the stuff an audience used to hear in the Ryman Auditorium. (BEFORE accoustics were replaced with ear shattering and unnecessary LOUD!!) |
Webb Kline
Member From: Bloomsburg, PA
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posted 21 January 2006 08:44 PM
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I ususally like a little reverb, except when playing my ZB. It seems to me like reverb robs some of the wonderful warmth of the ZB.I like to crank up the delay sometimes because it gives me a psychedelic and/or New Age out-of-body experience without feeling like I'm demon posessed.  |
John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 22 January 2006 07:46 AM
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Alan, echo and reverb are actually the same effect. The only difference being the time delay between the repeats.
It seems that many people refer to "reverb" as repeats that are so fast that the human ear can't detect the repeat. It is heard as a "decaying" sound.
According to some authorities, the human ear can detect two different sounds which are at least 1/10 of a second apart.
To manufacture a reverb effect with a delay device, you would need to set the delay at less than 100ms (milliseconds) and adjust the feedback loop for the desired number of repeats (total decay time).
For the record, I prefer to barely hear the repeat. This is what most people call a "delay" effect.------------------
www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar
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T. C. Furlong
Member From: Vernon Hills, Illinois, USA
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posted 22 January 2006 08:44 AM
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John, I am pretty sure that reverb and echo are two different things. The term echo refers to discrete, equally timed repeats of the original signal whereas reverb is a random series of reflections that have a sort of signature, much like a room would. Reverb is very complex and echos are simple. In nature, you tend to hear echoes outdoors (e.g. canyon, fireworks near a big building) and reverb indoors(e.g. gymnasium, concert hall or a cathedral.
You are right that the brain can detect a discrete echo starting at about 100 Milliseconds. In my steel rig, I am down to almost no reverb and the slightest amount of echo at about 200 Ms. This seems to leave the space for the picked note to not be blended with and blurred by the reverb of the previous note(s). Of course, if a '50's or '60s retro sound is what your after, crank the reverb and turn off the echo.
TC[This message was edited by T. C. Furlong on 22 January 2006 at 08:45 AM.] |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 22 January 2006 09:28 AM
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a long but good article on this subject here: http://www.trueaudio.com/at_echo.htm |
T. C. Furlong
Member From: Vernon Hills, Illinois, USA
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posted 22 January 2006 11:53 AM
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Ben, thanks for the link. Good article written more than 25 years ago at the infancy of digital reverberation. Then a digital reverb cost thousands, today you can but a digital reverb pedal for as little as $20 or $30. |
John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 22 January 2006 01:57 PM
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Good article,Ben. It "ECHOS" my understanding of the terms. I got my information by reading books on sound reinforcement and through information gained through analyzing sounds, for years, on a federal government research project engaged in noise control.
Lately, I have put my noise control knowledge to good use by using the "off" switch on my radio. The "change station" button doesn't do much good these days.  ------------------
www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar
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Craig A Davidson
Member From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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posted 22 January 2006 04:55 PM
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Mostly just reverb for me. And that would be the reverb that came with the amp. I can travel light that way. |
Dan Beller-McKenna
Member From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 04:52 AM
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Can someone explain which of the popular pedals and/or rack mounts allow you to use (and mix of course) echo and reverb. It's hard to tell from most descriptions whether you can access both effects together on these units, or whether it's an either-or proposition.I am particularly intersted in whether the rv-3 or nanoverb has this capability. Thanks. Dan ------------------
Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, Peavey Heritage VTX
[This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 23 January 2006 at 05:26 AM.]
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Ray Minich
Member From: Limestone, New York, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 06:07 AM
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Yes, and Bobbe's "Secrets" video shows what you can do with echo if you set it out longer than normal. The magic is in the note timing vs the delay timing. It's neat.
I'll never watch "Jaws" again... [This message was edited by Ray Minich on 23 January 2006 at 06:09 AM.] |
T. C. Furlong
Member From: Vernon Hills, Illinois, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 02:52 PM
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Dan, the unit I have found to do the reverb and delay in the same patch is the TC Electronics M-One. It's easier to set up to do a delay/reverb blend than all the others. I use effect 1 as the delay in series with effect 2 as the reverb. You can then use the effect balance control to determine how much delay versus reverb you want. The mix control determines how much of the overall effect (after balancing the relative levels of delay/reverb) you want. Works for me.
TC |
John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 24 January 2006 05:46 AM
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Dan, to the best of my knowledge, the nanoverb only allows one effect to be used (no chaining). I use one for voice recording, utilizing the "hall" reverb. For steel guitar, I use the Lexicon MPX 110,utilizing the "delay","delay/chorus" and "delay/flange". I tweaked these effects to my liking and stored them as "user" programs............ JD------------------
www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar
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Ben Slaughter
Member From: Madera, California
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posted 24 January 2006 12:57 PM
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The RV-3 can do Delay, Reverb or both at the same time. Most of the multi effects processors like the old ProFex, and the newer boxes like the PODxt can do any combination of 'Verb and/or Delay.The Reverbs in the RV-3 are very good IMO. The Delays are acceptable, but can be a little too crisp for my taste. If I'm using delay only, I prefer a DD-3. The RV-3 is a good, versitle pedal and is no longer in production. The RV-5 is Reverb ONLY. |
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
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posted 24 January 2006 04:10 PM
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I will occasionally use reverb, but mostly I just have a little echo. |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 24 January 2006 04:41 PM
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Dan - Do your echo settings vary from song to song or do you set the delay time and leave it there?------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande Mullen U-12, Evans FET-500, Fender Steel King
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Dan Beller-McKenna
Member From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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posted 24 January 2006 05:54 PM
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Thanks for all the great advice folks!Lee, I currently have only the reverb on my amp (Peavey Heritage), which I found kind of mushy--too much of the echo and not enough of the main signal. I was hoping to get something with a little more control and, at the same time, add in a slight delay. I know, from some of the earlier posts (on this thread--or was it another?) that there is some question as to whether these are even separate things (reverb and delay), but that is the sound I have in my mind's ear, or at least what I think I am hearing in some pros' sound. Thanks. Dan ------------------
Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, Peavey Heritage VTX
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Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 24 January 2006 06:34 PM
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Actually, my question was directed to Dan Tyack; however, I know just what you mean. On some amps, the spring reverb just doesn't cut it. I have tried Paul Franklin's combination of reverb and a little bit of delay set at 200ms and really like the results. On some slow tunes, 300ms works well, also.Lee |
Dan Beller-McKenna
Member From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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posted 24 January 2006 06:36 PM
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oooops! Sorry Lee!Uh .... er . . . Dan, wanna answer him?
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David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 25 January 2006 04:53 AM
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The Lexicon 110 and Genesis 3 both let you combine and balance reverb and echo, with a lot of parameters for each. I think it's pretty standard these days, POD's, Rolands etc. |
Howard Tate
Member From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA
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posted 25 January 2006 06:40 AM
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It seems that the longer I keep at this the fewer effects I use. I like a pretty tone with a nice reverb, but I want the notes I hit to sound separate and clean. I use a DD-3 with one fast repeat, sometimes on ballads I hit the reverb button on the foot control.(FSK) I usually keep the 'verb off, it's a little noisy.------------------
Wish I'd learned lap steel when I still had a lap. |
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