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Author
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Topic: How many watts are enough?
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Doug Jones
Member From: Canby, Oregon USA
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posted 22 January 2006 11:30 PM
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Most steel amps are in the 200W RMS range into 4 ohms. Over the years I've found with PV, Evans and Webb you really don't have to turn them up very high to have plenty of punch and headroom with great clarity without breakup. I've also found that plenty of kick comes out of a 22W Fender Deluxe with a Tele. How many watts are really necessary to get the steel job done in a 200+ seater club or an outdoor gig for onstage monitoring to hear yourself clearly among all the other gear on stage. Assuming you don't have the luxury of a FOH sound rig and tech to push it, what do you think is enough? I know many variables can enter this equation such as THD, Dampening, etc., but can a steeler get by with 50W, 100W, 150W, etc.? Bring it on you Tekkies..................[This message was edited by Doug Jones on 22 January 2006 at 11:49 PM.] |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 23 January 2006 02:53 AM
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well, first off , you really cannot compare the Solid State watts to the Vacuum Tube watts. Thats one bridge thats never met in the middle....I think the primary reason that the larger Steel amps have the HI Gain is not so much for volume but for clarity and response...volume is an artifact. Remember the days when we all ran out and got the 300 watt Stereo systems? It was not to jack up the volume so the neighbors could rock out with you..it was for the clarity / dynamic range of the music that you were listening to at normal volume levels. Now consider that these amps are really TWO purpose amps..E9th and C6th tunings. you put that low C with the low A ( Ped 8 ) at stage volume thru your 22 watt amp and say goodnight Dick.... I think the jury is back on this one, and Peavey walks away with the Equital... 250 to 300 watts in a HI quality chassis , including Power Supply, along with the appropriate speaker IS the "Can do it all" package. It meets the needs of ALL players..all styles..pretty much ALL gigs... How many times have we all read how a small amp is all anyone ever needs, and they recommend the small package to everyone..then you find out they are playing weekly in a small room, older crowd, very mild volume levels..not really pushing the envelope...
The small package does NOT meet the needs of all players..it is an alternative for some players.
So, I say, 250 to 300 watts in a HI QUALITY chassis with the appropriate speaker is the standard....the reference... Now if someone starts to tell me I need 600 watts....then we got a problem...
t
TPrior/SteelGuitarHomesite[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 January 2006 at 04:54 AM.] |
Alan Harrison
Member From: Murfreesboro Tennessee, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 05:39 AM
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Played a show in McAllen Texas last Saturday in a 900 seat auditorium which was packed. Played my Emmons with two Peavey 112's and my profex ll. The lead guitar was pushing pretty darn hard with his fender twin (miked) but my two 112's cut thru the junk and producded the tone and power I needed to hit the back of the auditouium. I am very satisfied with two 85 watt amps. ------------------
Emmons LeGrande II D-10, 8 & 5, Willy D-10, 8 & 8 two Peavey 112's, Profex II and Hilton Pedal.
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George Kimery
Member From: Limestone, TN, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 05:48 AM
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Can someone address the efficency of the speaker issue? I read somewhere, many years ago, that some speakers only put out 5% of what goes into them, while a really good speaker, might put out 20%. If that is true, then a smaller wattage amp with a 20% output speaker would be louder than a high watt amp with a low speaker output percentage. I know to get am amp to sound twice as loud, you have to increase the wattage about 8 times, not twice as you would think. I would like to hear some comments on this subject from somebody knowledgable. |
Ken Fox
Member From: Ray City, GA USA
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posted 23 January 2006 06:02 AM
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Some notes I found on efficiency:Efficiency - Efficiency of a speaker system is a measure of how well the speaker is able to convert electrical energy into sound (acoustic energy). Speaker efficiency varies widely; typical consumer speakers have an efficiency rated at 1% to 3%. The highest efficiency consumer speaker systems are about 20% efficient; 4% can be considered high efficiency. Efficiency has no direct relationship to the quality of sound reproduction, and many lower efficiency speakers have excellent frequency response, low distortion, etc. Some high efficiency speakers, while they may be louder than lower efficiency speakers (given the same power), may not sound as good. Efficiency is difficult to measure, hard to evaluate, and seldom specified by numerical value so a related value is specified instead…sensitivity. |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 23 January 2006 06:04 AM
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IF 85 was the new reference, there would be no N1000's anymore.So lets ask Mike Brown, is this gonna be the case ? The 85 watt 112 will be the new leading edge amp to cover all situations , replacing the 300 watt N1000 ? I'm game... but all this would mean is that I will DEFINTELY be keeping all 3 of my hi powered 15" speaker Peavey Steel amps.. in 10 years,who knows what they may be worth ! but..  ..I know this is not going to be the case...[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 January 2006 at 08:04 AM.] |
Ken Fox
Member From: Ray City, GA USA
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posted 23 January 2006 06:08 AM
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Another interesting clip to support more efficient speakers (thus requiring less power amp usage)"To produce 110dB SPL, a speaker with an 85dB efficiency figure requires a transistor-roasting, transformer-frying 316 watts! No single speaker can handle this, so several must share the power. The demands on the amp are enormous, but even if the amp can deliver a clean 500 watts, gross speaker distortion often occurs when SPLs over 112db are attempted. If you need a fairly clean 115db but your 4 x 12" speaker cabinet distorts excessively above 112db, two such cabs will be needed, as the additional 3db requires double the power handling capability. How much better off are we with the more efficient 103dB-rated speaker? With a 103db SPL at 1 watt, 110db (7db more) requires a little over two doublings of drive power. A mere 5 watts can do it! And if the speaker can take it, 50 watts will generate a 120db SPL. At full power through speakers of this efficiency, the 500-watt amp would produce a 130db SPL "
For the reason above I can take a 22 watt Deluxe Reverb with a JBL. EV or Black Widow and keep up woth a Twin Reverb with a more inefficient speaker(Oxford, Jensen, etc)! Been there and done it many a nite with my old 1965 Deluxe with a D-120F! I miss that amp! I sold it before I left Portland just over a year ago.[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 23 January 2006 at 06:12 AM.] [This message was edited by Ken Fox on 23 January 2006 at 06:12 AM.]
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Alan Harrison
Member From: Murfreesboro Tennessee, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 08:17 AM
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I forgot to mention that the speakers in both of the 112's are BW 1203-4's. If you don't believe that they make a difference when you have to wick it up, try it.------------------
Emmons LeGrande II D-10, 8 & 5, Willy D-10, 8 & 8 two Peavey 112's, Profex II and Hilton Pedal.
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Mike Brown
Member From: Meridian, Mississippi USA
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posted 23 January 2006 09:27 AM
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I don't know if anyone can answer "how much wattage is plenty" for a gig. Right now, I am still surprised that the Nashville 112 at 80 watts is doing the job. However, it depends on if it is miked, ran direct or just using it by itself. I personally have come learn that miking an amp is the only way to go as it will at least give you the option of turning your channel up if the rest of the band blows you away while onstage. Usually you sort of have an idea before you go to the gig. At any rate, the bottom line is the more available headroom, the better. Products are becoming smaller and lighterweight and technology is advancing so rapidly, I "predict" that it won't be long before the bread box sized amp will be a reality. |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 23 January 2006 10:54 AM
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A rule of thumb that I have always followed is that the maximum usuable wattage should be about twice the watts that you expect to use. That should be enough!------------------
GUITARS ETC
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Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 11:15 AM
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Watts are irrelevant. There are so many "marketing" methods to calculating wattage that it's a non-factor in guitar amp sound.There's also a percieved volume difference between solid state and tube amps of the same wattage/speaker setup. The tube system will sound louder, even though it's really not. So forget wattage and just find an amp that sounds good at a volume level you need, and stay with the smallest one possible (especially with tube amps), as amps/speakers driven fairly hard always sound better than ones turned up to "2". |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 23 January 2006 11:56 AM
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quote:
So forget wattage and just find an amp that sounds good at a volume level you need.
.....which is, "about twice the wattage that you expect to use".  [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 23 January 2006 at 11:57 AM.] |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 01:54 PM
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Unmiked, 300 watts solid state (NV1000) or 180 watts tube (Fender Super Twin) should be enough for anything less than a coliseum or stadium. For pedal steel, it's not as much about the sheer volume as about volume pedal sustain and clean headroom. I find I need 4 to 8 times the wattage of the lead guitar to keep up and not be bumping my volume pedal. But others with a different volume pedal approach might need less.Of course if you can mike a smaller amp, why haul around all that weight? Even unmiked, there are some bands and rooms where 50 watts tube or 80 solid state would be plenty. If you play in different groups, genres and venues, there is no one-size-fits-all, unless you want to always carry around the maximum amount of wattage and weight. |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 02:57 PM
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The wattage needed for PSG's differs from the wattage needed for 6 string electrics? I guess this should not surprise me.....For 6 string electric un-miced, you need to be able to be heard above the drummer. From my experience in rock bands with hard hitting loud drummers that is a rond 50 tube watts minimum. i wish there was a method of converting tube to ss wattage in terms of volume output...maybe there is and I am unware of it. seems like steel players either use ss peaveys or tube fenders. the fender twins are usually 100 watts...the peaveys are what 300 watts? three to one ratio?
[This message was edited by Ben Jones on 23 January 2006 at 03:02 PM.] |
John De Maille
Member From: Merrick,N.Y. U.S.A.
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posted 23 January 2006 03:44 PM
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Somtimes I think the application of the wrong equipment, can misrepresent the actual use it was intended for. Last year, in AZ. I heard a prominant steel player using 2- PeaVey 112's, in a room about 60'X 120' ( 7200 sq. ft. Approx. ) The room was half full of dancers and other "Cow Dudes". His sound was terrible on stage and through the sound system. Way too much distortion. I mentioned it to him cautiously, and he told me, that, he was trying out the new amps and hoped they would do the job. We both came to the conclusion that, they just weren't enough to cover the overall sound of the band and the size of the room. The 112's are great for smaller venues and less stage volume, but, not enough for a major event. I like the sound of the 112's. I heard Randy Beavers use one at the SSGA show in Mesa, last year. But, again, that was a smaller quieter venue. BTW- I use a Nash 400 and a Nash 1000 for my rig, so, I'm not against P.V. at all. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 23 January 2006 06:18 PM
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Ben, one of the groups I play steel with is a bunch of ex-punkers who play raunchy rockabilly and alt country in the local rock clubs, with unmiked amps. The lead guitar has the loudest '50s Tweed 15 watt Deluxe I have ever heard. He also runs an old Echoplex, which probably adds 5 or 10 watts. Of course everything is up all the way. And the drummer is very loud, as is the bass. For pedal steel (with these guys I play a lot of B6 mode on my uni) my 200 watt solid state NV400 was not keeping up, even in practice. Plus, playing a solid state amp at top volume just doesn't sound very good. I got a 135 watt late silverface Twin. It was just as loud as the NV400, and sounded way better at top volume. But it still wasn't quite enough. I got a 180 watt Super Twin - problem solved. Probably a 300 watt ss NV1000 would have been loud enough also, but I had gotten to like the tube sound, as did everyone else in the group.The volume pedal is used for sustain. I attack notes with it backed off to maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of its range, reserving the rest for sustain. So right there, I need an amp with 3-4 times the amplification. Also, the hand-held bar is not as solid as holding strings against the solid neck and frets. Also, finger picks aren't as loud as flailing away with your whole arm and a flat pick. Finally, steel needs really clean amplification, with minimal harmonic distortion while sustaining and swelling thick chords. Put it all together and you begin to understand why steelers routinely use clean 100-300 watt amps to play along with 6-strings using dirty 25-50 watt amps. It's all in the physics. |
Richard Sinkler
Member From: Fremont, California
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posted 23 January 2006 09:51 PM
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Alan, you said at the gig you played that the guitar player's amp was miked. Was yours? If not, why not?------------------
Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic. |
Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 23 January 2006 10:23 PM
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There sure is a lot of Jones Boys on here, is this by any chance, a conspiracy???????------------------
If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
;) |
Cartwright Thompson
Member From: Portland, Maine, USA
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posted 24 January 2006 02:32 AM
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Maybe at this point we should discuss hearing protection.... |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 24 January 2006 02:37 AM
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David and John have brought the puppy home...[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 January 2006 at 02:37 AM.] |
Alan Harrison
Member From: Murfreesboro Tennessee, USA
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posted 24 January 2006 05:24 AM
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Richard,I wasn't miked because they didn't have enough inputs in the board. They did have two mikes at floor level in front of the stage and three mikes standing on stage. I'm sure that I was somewhat amplified by the floor mike at the front but couldn't have been very much. I had my gain set at 6 and the master at 8. Seemed to have plenty left. Other than the lead guitar the band wasn't that loud on stage. |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 24 January 2006 07:33 AM
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135 watts of tube power not cutting it? wow....Ive had incredible volume gains from old amps by replacing the tubes and speakers.
100 watt musicman combo, retubed, with new speakers and an added 2x12 underneath. Just about doubled the volume on this thing to my ears. The loudest amp i have ever heard was a Sunn 120 watt tube...this thing could drop an elephant at one hundred yards with the volume knob on 2. Transformers the size of cantelopes. Ive done fine with forty watts against loud basists and drummer. Theres just too many variables to say.... |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 25 January 2006 02:30 PM
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Watt's + speaker senstivity (efficiency) is the bigger picture. My 22 watt Deluxe is not that loud with a stock speaker. But it'll keep up with 60+ watt amps when it has a JBL D120 in it. Loudness and Watts aren't necessarily the same thing. But to try to throw an answer out there based on the question asked... I'd say 80 tube watts or 160+ transistor watts should generally suffice for even loud conditions. If that's not enough, sit closer to the amp. Brad |
Chris Bauer
Member From: Nashville, TN USA
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posted 25 January 2006 03:30 PM
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Alan, Ernie, and Charlie were always pretty much all the Watts' I ever needed to get by on.  |
Doug Jones
Member From: Canby, Oregon USA
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posted 25 January 2006 07:47 PM
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I'm going to use my PV CS-200x to push a Marrs cab with a 1501-SB 4ohm at a 200+ seater with 2 dance floors gig Thursday night. I plan to use only one side of it (120W @ 4ohm) and if necessary bridge it to 220W @ 4. Per the manual it's OK. I'll take my Evans FET-500 along just in case. Details later. -DJ-[This message was edited by Doug Jones on 25 January 2006 at 07:50 PM.] |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 25 January 2006 10:11 PM
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I pretty much agree with Brad, except if that's not enough don't sit closer to the amp - fire the drummer instead. |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 26 January 2006 03:41 AM
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Alan, you played a gig where they mic'd one Instrument but not others ?Someone actually thought that was ok to do ? Where I sit..it's all or NONE... How can there possibly be a balanced sound out in front of the Mains with 1 Instrument not in the mix ? ------------------
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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 26 January 2006 07:08 AM
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One of the few times I disagree completely with Brad. In an unmiked situation, sitting closer to your speaker is the exact wrong thing to do. The closer I sit to my speaker, the quieter I play the volume pedal, and the further down in the mix I sink. Essentially I become the only one on or off the stage who can hear me. To be sure you match the lead guitar's volume, you should sit close to the front of the stage (in line with him), and have your speaker in the back line with all the others.And in a loud group playing at rock club level (loud but not unbearable), 80 tube watts wont cut it for pedal steel. Attacking your notes with the volume pedal 1/4 to 1/3 on will be like a 6-stringer playing with the amp volume set on 3 - or like playing with a 25 watt amp. What will happen is you will end up playing with your volume pedal 3/4 on, and will bump the end of it's throw on long notes. So, sure, if you play with your volume pedal full on, you only need a 50 watt amp to match the lead guitar's 50 watt amp. The extra wattage in a steel amp just gives you more volume pedal sustain. You don't have to make people's ears bleed with it. Don't worry, if you play too loud, the rest of the group will let you know, especially if you play as bad as I do. |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 26 January 2006 08:15 AM
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ah yes the volume pedal, that explains the need for more wattage...weird concept to a six stringer.Im playing lap thru a forty watt guild thunderbass into a 4x12 loaded with celestian v30's..it screams and can hold its own with our very loud drummer (rock band), but then...no volume pedal here yet. This rig is great but I want something far more portable for this band. Not sure what to get as I love tube amps, but want the lightweight ease and reliablility of solid state. Maybe a small fender? a small Mesa combo?....having a hard time figuring out what will work for PSG and Lap that is small, and tube. Hmmm...maybe a Fender Bassman head and a custom built 1x15 cab? In an ideal world I could plug a strat into this amp as well....perhaps I ask for too much? [This message was edited by Ben Jones on 26 January 2006 at 08:19 AM.] [This message was edited by Ben Jones on 26 January 2006 at 08:24 AM.]
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 26 January 2006 10:58 AM
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Yes, tubes and weight seem to go hand in hand. Using a head and separate speaker cab(s) is the way I deal with it. I would think you could loose the 4x12 and go with 2x12 or a single 15. For guitar and steel, you don't need those huge heavy 15" cabs bass players use. The old Fender amps are nice, and the silverface ones are affordable and better for pedal steel (cleaner with more headroom). But if you can afford it, a modern medium power tube head that has a clean channel, a drive channel, and a low power switch might be able to handle lap steel, pedal steel, and strat. But with a volume pedal, the pedal steel might be underpowered. A trick some people use is to have a versatile moderate volume head (such as THD), and play through powered speakers. BTW, the Mesa combos I've seen are also the heaviest I've ever seen, and many of them aren't designed to play clean. |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 26 January 2006 11:34 AM
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so maybe a silverface bassman 100 watt head for about $400? cant remeber but dont think those have reverb. I have a 2x12 I could use with it. I was actually hoping to get even smaller and more portable than the 2x12 tho. Ideally a combo I could carry in one hand by the handle and not rupture a disc.Amp makers here my plea! lol. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 26 January 2006 12:34 PM
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Yeah, a Bassman head with external reverb (no problem these days) would work. For small tube combos look at a silverface Vibrolux (40 watts, 2x10) or Deluxe (20 watts, 1x12). If you really want to get light, put a Vibrolux chassis in a small head cab, and get a small 4 ohm 1x12 separate cab. Also, check out a new or used Hot Rod Deluxe (40 watts, 1x12) - very versatile, reasonably priced, decent tube tone. Any of these would be good with lap steel. None of these have enough volume for me for pedal steel with a volume pedal. But they might work for you. Another option is an old Music Man. These are very reasonably priced as heads or combos. They are very compact and light compared to all-tube amps. But they have a solid state preamp, and tubes only in the power amp. I have one. You don't get the all-tube tone, but they are as good or better than many solid state amps. The quest for the best small all-tube amp seems to be endless. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 26 January 2006 at 12:38 PM.] |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 26 January 2006 02:25 PM
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Thank you that is some great advice ...i will check out the amps you mentioned. Funny you mentioned the MusicMan tho as that is one of my amps. I have a 100 watt 2x10 combo the "rd" model. The R is for Reverb, the D for distortion. It has the worst sounding gain of any amp i have ever heard in my life but is very good for clean and the reverb is alright. Unfortunately it is incredibly heavy. I'd guess between 80-90 lbs. My other amps are a 120 watt Sunn 1200S tube head that weighs 100 pounds on its own...and a very light 40 watt Guild Thunderbass head which as you said is probably not going to be powerful enough for an instrument with a volume pedal. I think a 65 watt single speaker combo or the hundred watt head and a small cab is what I might need. Maybe I will break down and try some solid state amps, its so hard to imagine me liking one, but alot of the poepl here make them sound just fine. Its tough to even think about buying more amplifies when I have three nice ones , but none of em are really suited to my needs at the moment, and I couldnt bear to sell any of em..hehe. |
Alan Harrison
Member From: Murfreesboro Tennessee, USA
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posted 26 January 2006 05:08 PM
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Tony, I feel the same way and ten or so years ago I probably would have said something unkind that would have got me in trouble. However, at 70 years old, I am just proud that I'm ask to play now and then. I still love the steel guitar as much or more than I did when I started playing in 1968.------------------
Emmons LeGrande II D-10, 8 & 5, Willy D-10, 8 & 8 two Peavey 112's, Profex II and Hilton Pedal.
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Dave Grafe
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 26 January 2006 05:33 PM
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Have you considered putting wheels on the Sunn and riding your other gear on top? |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 27 January 2006 10:04 AM
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I hear ya Alan.. I mean...I HEAR YA ! I'm glad to be out on the gigs too.. at any volume.. Loud, Louder and MUCH LOUDER ! t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 January 2006 at 01:27 PM.] |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 28 January 2006 05:54 AM
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How many watts you need depends on what kind of tone you're wanting. If you play with a lot of treble (think: Tom Brumley w/Buck), 60-80 watts is probably fine. If you want solid Chalker-type bass, however, you need a ton of watts! Good solid bass tone (with an open cabinet) needs 150-200 watts, and here's where we get into the subject of efficiency. Speakers are terribly inefficient. A good one might be 4% efficient, while a poor one might have an efficiency of 2%. Generally, the only way full-range speakers get their efficiency up into double digit range is through the enclosure. A well-designed cabinet focuses and directs the sound, in the same way a magnifying glass focuses light. Take the old Fender Bassman. One of the reasons it seemed so loud and "fat" was that big closed-back cabinet. The amp was only 40-50 watts, but it sounded more like 150! All the sound was pushing forward, without almost half being being wasted to the sides and rear (as in the Twin Reverb). Of course, the Bassman usually came with JBL's, too, which were real efficient speakers compared to others that were available. The big Showman had the same advantages, and projected real well out front, but lead and steel guitarists still preferred those sparkling highs and the "presence" of an open-back cabinet. They also liked the smaller size of the open cabinets, too! Small open cabinets rob you of bass, but in return, they give you those sparkling highs that seem to be everywhere. Small open cabinets aren't very efficient, but they're easier to tote around. Big closed-back cabinets give you maximum punch and output, they really project the sound forward, but the sounds are, consequently, very directional, and the clarity goes away fast as you get off-axis to the speaker. It's possible to play with an open-backed cabinet to the side, or even in front of you, and still get a pretty good idea of the overall sound. With a big closed cabinet, though, if you're not right in front of it, you don't have the foggiest idea of what's coming out! |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 28 January 2006 09:09 AM
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I use 40 watts or less for most of my gigs. |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 28 January 2006 09:21 AM
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I use 243.7 watts or more for all of my gigs..  ------------------
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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite
[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 28 January 2006 at 09:21 AM.]
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Rick Garrett
Member From: Tyler, Texas
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posted 28 January 2006 09:31 AM
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b0b, 40 watts? What amp are you using? ThanksRick |
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