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Author
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Topic: Stock tubes vs. Groove tubes
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Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 18 February 2006 12:30 PM
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If you wanted the cleanest sound you could get from a Vibrasonic or a Twin, which tubes would you use? I'm not interested in any kind of distortion from the tubes, only clean steel guitar. I was told from a guy that's been working on tubes amps for years and years that he thought the Groove tubes weren't good for the amp. What say you tube guys out there?[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 18 February 2006 at 12:31 PM.] |
Bill Miller
Member From: Gaspé, Québec, Canada
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posted 18 February 2006 12:43 PM
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Frank, I'd just like to say that there are other options besides Groove Tubes. I'm not a tube expert at all but you might want to check out the 'Eurotubes' website:
http://www.eurotubes.com/index.htm If you get in touch with them and tell them what your requirements are they will put together a tube package for your amp based on how you like your sound. I dealt with them and I was very well satisfied. They sell J.J. Tesla tubes which are supposed to be about the best tubes available today. I believe that's what Brad Sarno uses in his Steel Guitar Black Box. [This message was edited by Bill Miller on 18 February 2006 at 12:44 PM.] |
Andy Zynda
Member From: Wisconsin
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posted 18 February 2006 01:20 PM
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Groove Tubes are imported, relabelled, chinese, russian, etc. whatever Pittman can get his hands on cheap. You never know what you're getting.
JJ's are excellent, but for big, clean, glassy sound, Svetlanas are the ticket, or new new JJ KT66's.
-andy-
(Ken Fox will also have good advice!) |
Dennis Wallis
Member From: Bryant, Arkansas, USA
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posted 18 February 2006 01:49 PM
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I put a matched quad of Sovtek 5881's in my Twin and it cleaned it up a lot. I like it. I've heard that changing the preamp tubes to 5771's will also make it cleaner. The lower the "rating" the earlier the distortion. I've tried groove tubes. I think they even had Fender on them but they were too fuzzy sometimes. The 5881's took care of the problem so far. |
Greg Simmons
Member From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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posted 18 February 2006 01:57 PM
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Do yourself a favor and just deal with Mike here:
http://www.kcanostubes.com/content/ ------------------
“I always knew that there was something out there that I needed to get to.
And it wasn't where I was at that particular moment."
-Bob Dylan
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Harold Dye
Member From: Cullman, Alabama, USA
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posted 18 February 2006 07:17 PM
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Frank, I recently bought a Music Man , 150 watt head that had new GT #5 (whatever that means), and I could never get a tone I like from it. This week I replaced them with a matched set of Sevetlanas and the difference is unbelievable. I also understand the JJ's work really well for Fenders and MM. I got mine from Lord Valve in Denver. The guy seems to know his business. |
KENNY KRUPNICK
Member From: Grove City,Ohio
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posted 18 February 2006 09:53 PM
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www.analogbros.com
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Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 18 February 2006 11:28 PM
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Sovtek 5881's aren't really 5881's, nor are they 6L6's; they are Russian servo tubes that happen to have the same pinout and similar specs. They are fairly rugged, but really weak sounding compared to RCA's, Sylvanias, Philips and new JJ's.Aspen Pittman (Groove Tubes) is a fun character, a great marketing guy, and he's done a lot to educate folks about tubes. But his products range from excellent to abysmal, and all are relabels of something else with the exception of his "Made in USA" reissue tubes - which are made in China using some US components. Recommendation - as mentioned, Eurotubes, KCA, and Lord Valve are three good tube sources. I'd stick with those, call one of them them and go by their recommendations. |
Geoff Brown
Member From: Nashvegas
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posted 19 February 2006 07:00 AM
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The GT 6L6 is supposed to be a great tube. Supposedly they actually found a lot of the original materials that GE used years ago..sheets of plate metal, etc. According to GT...they are partially assembled in China and finished in the U.S. GT has original GE equipment and tooling as well, and when they have everything up and running the tubes will be made entirely in the U.S. We'll see. Having said that, you can buy NOS tubes for about the same price as the GT. Mike at KCA is a good guy to deal with. Bob at Eurotubes is ok, although I had 2 quads of EL84s run away (glowing red plates) in a Dr. Z. Bob supposedly matches the tubes' current to the amp they are going into. Supposedly. Not all JJs are great tubes. I've used their 6L6s, and they were ok, but nothing great to my ears. The EL84s are not bad (EH makes a nice one that sounds much nicer, IMO). The JJ 6v6 is a great, great tube. Not a true 6v6, it has more bottom than any 6v6 I've ever heard. I love 'em! TAD (Tube Amp Doctor) sells a 6L6 that I have heard lots of good things about. The guy who has these is in Germany. The tubes are made in China to HIS specs. He gets them, specs them out and ships them to dealers in the U.S. Ted Weber sells them, Mission Amps sells them, and some others I can't recall. These tubes are very much like RCA blackplates from what I've been told by a booteek amp builder with an excellent reputation. He's used them for a couple years, and loves them. Very low failure rates, well made and good-sounding. You can get a matched pair for about $40.00.
Here's the TAD website: http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/index.php?cPath=21_60_61 If you Google for TAD dealers, you should come up with some hits for U.S. dealers. Heck they're cheap enough  If you have the dough, go NOS with KCA. If not, I'd go with the TAD for about half the price. Good luck |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 19 February 2006 07:17 AM
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I hadn't heard of TAD before, but I'm wary of any Chinese tubes except 12AX7's. Non of the 6L6's have proven to have much durability...or tone. I'm curious though, and might have to try a pair (even though I have a lifetime supply of NOS ones!) just to satisfy my curiousity.The Groove Tubes 6L6GE is actually partialy made here and finish-assmled in China. Groove Tubes has the equipment only to make some of the components, not blow the glass and suck the tube. I had one of the first pairs, and it drifted off bias by 10ma within a couple hours. Got a second pair - same thing. Supposedly they've solved that problem (and some other issues) but overall the sound wasn't anything like the original GE's. I stick to Tung-Sol 5881's, Philips STR387's and for new tubes, JJ's. One great 6L6 - and harder to find matched than hen's teeth - is the Mullard EL37. IMO it, not the RCA blackplate, is the holy grail of 6L6's. |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 19 February 2006 08:13 AM
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Jim, I have a pair of Mullard EL-37's in my '56 Pro. They are the best 6L6 type ever, but they're a little bit pricey!NEW! Mullard EL37 Matched Pair 1960s Outstanding quality UK EL37.Used, test very strong pair. Sweet, dynamic and rich. NOS 1950s. The very best of the 6L6 types. $475 matched pair
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Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 19 February 2006 09:47 AM
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Every once in a while a matched pair slips through on eBay relatively cheap, since so few people know about 'em. |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 19 February 2006 11:24 AM
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Well, Jim, we'd better stop talkin' 'bout them then! |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 19 February 2006 11:40 AM
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Talking about what?;-) |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 20 February 2006 12:04 AM
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I don't recall any brand~name, nut; back in the ’60's, I always replaced my 6L6GB's or GC's with 5881's which I was told at the time were industrial tubes with the same specs. as the 6L6's. I could always heard a nice (subtle) improvement in the sound with my Fender Amps! I wish I was sure of the brand~name at the time, so that I could search for that same brand when new tube time comes again for me! There was also another ‘very hot’ tube that I used occasionally in place of the 6L6's, but; it had 6-prongs and that made it necessary to remove (2)-wires from the sockets which were only used as anchore-points for other wires within the chassis. But, that tube-number has been long ago forgotten and of course you can tell that only part of that tube was actually used in the Fender Amp.! ------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
’05 D–10 Derby
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 20 February 2006 04:58 AM
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link this site;
http://thetubestore.com/ excellent technical info as well as tube references. I stopped using Groove Tubes years back and switched to matched sets of Power Tubes such as 5881's for my late model Fender amps...Direct replacements for factory schematic tubes is what I now do. I did try a few HOT preamp tubes but in some cases it changed the entire response to the amps, (Hot Rod Deville and Hot Rod Deluxe) so back to factory schemetic replacements is what I do now. Other than telling people I had Groove Tubes, I'm not really sure what they did for me, other than cost a bunch more. ------------------
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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite
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Mark Metdker
Member From: North Central Texas, USA
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posted 20 February 2006 06:00 AM
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Ive had good success with Ruby Tubes FWIW.------------------
Zum U-12 w/True Tone pickup thru a Nashville 112
Strats thru a VHT Super 30
http://community.webshots.com/album/176544894AuXSmi
jonchristopherdavis.com
www.lonestarattitude.net |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 20 February 2006 06:30 AM
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FWIW Ruby is just another importer and relabeler of the same European and Asian tubes as Groove Tubes, Sovtek/EH, et al. |
Mark Metdker
Member From: North Central Texas, USA
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posted 20 February 2006 10:25 AM
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Thanks Jim, Good info, I didn't know that. |
Michael McCorry
Member From: Plattsburgh New York, USA
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posted 20 February 2006 11:04 AM
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You may want to replace some of the pre-amp 7025/12ax7's with a lower gain tube, 12at7,12ay7 etc...its the preamps that drive the power tubes to distortion, so if you lower the gain factor the amp will stay cleaner longer...no rebias necessary if swapping out preamp tubes. You can also vary the bias of the power tubes to tweak the sound..be careful..LOTS of juice there.. I use the russian made Svtlana's or Sovtek KT66's..stay away from the chinesese(sp) stuff...microphonic preamps and cheap powertubes..also, Ruby tubes 6L6gstr are a good choice. IMHO..------------------
"He who sacrifices personal liberties for a real or imagined sense of security, deserves neither liberty nor security"
Thomas Jefferson
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Mark Fasbender
Member From: Salt Lake City,Utah
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posted 23 February 2006 11:35 PM
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You might want to make sure your "driver" or "phase inverter" tube is internally matched. On some tube locations it dont matter much but on that tube it is quite important. Often overlooked but this can really open up the tone of an amp. ------------------
Got Twang ? Mark |
Keith Cordell
Member From: Atlanta
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posted 24 February 2006 04:50 AM
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In all the discussion of tubes one thing is glaringly apparent; too much importance is placed on the tube type and not nearly enough on the caps and maintenace parts. Before I retube an amp that is more than a few years old I have it recapped. Then I replace the tubes, and have a look at the speaker. Speakers are, for me, the biggest upgrade you can make if you have stock junk in your amp; tons of really great ones are on the market these days. You'll find it hard to find too many people that all agree on tube resellers, and most of what is out there is really good for what it does. I have had no luck at all with GT, Mesa Boogie tubes are likewise of little use. JJ has some great tubes, but I have had some turkeys there as well. NOS tubes are not worth the dough, people paying $500 for a pair of 6L6's just have too much money. The Svetlanas are great, most of the time, and quality control seems to be better. You can easily end up spending a ton of money making a marginal sounding amp sound marginally better- or you can get a good amp that sounds great to begin with. |
Ben Jones
Member From: Washington, USA
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posted 24 February 2006 07:15 AM
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my recommedation (since there are about twenty different recommendations in this thread) is to tell yur amp tech what sound you want and have him recommend the tubes to get. He will have to bias them anyway unless you are up for that.I also like michael's suggestion about changing the pre tube. |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 24 February 2006 08:07 AM
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"In all the discussion of tubes one thing is glaringly apparent; too much importance is placed on the tube type and not nearly enough on the caps and maintenace parts"Boy, do I agree with that. you shouldn't even touch tubes on an older amp until you're sure the filter and bias caps are fresh and other parts checked for drift. Unless you have an awful speaker setup (Utahs, Pyles etc), I usually prefer to get the tubes tweaked prior to "speaker chasing". You can spend a LOT of time and money on speakers, so it's good to have the electronics dialed-in as much as possible first IMO. |
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