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Author
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Topic: Installing 15" Speaker in a Twin
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Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 01 March 2006 04:54 PM
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I plugged my Session 400 JBL speaker into my '71 Silverface Twin today (unplugging the two 12's), and the sound was unreal. I'm toying with the idea of putting the JBL in the Twin, and taking out the Oxfords which have now proven to be inferior in a big way. I like the Twin better than the Session, although the JBL kicks butt.
Anybody have any thoughts about this move? How hard is it to install a 15 in place of the 12's? I saw a recent sale here on the forum of a 15" baffle. I'm going to need one of those, I guess. Any other particulars? Anybody wanna talk me out of it? |
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 01 March 2006 05:04 PM
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I certainly won't talk you out of it (although my own preference depends on what day of the week it is). The question of how hard/easy depends on whther the 2 X 12 baffle is screwed to cleats as in the early models or if it is dadoed & glued in, as in the later models. I forget what year the change was. The later ones present hassles, though not insurmountable. You can get a baffle made for reasonable $$--I suggest seeking out forum member Rick Johnson.
If you've got the JBL and you've got the itch, go for it. Right there is one of the classic steel sounds--Twin into a D130. |
Darvin Willhoite
Member From: Leander, Tx. USA
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posted 01 March 2006 06:39 PM
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Here's pics of my Twin with a 15" JBL. This was done before I bought it, but if you have basic woodworking skills and patience, it shouldn't be too hard. This is a great sounding amp.
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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 01 March 2006 06:51 PM
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Putting a 15" JBL in a Twin converts it to a Vibrosonic. That tone is as good as it gets. However, the JBL is probably an 8 ohm speaker. The Vibrosonic was 8 ohms to match that speaker; but the Twin internal speaker jack is for 4 ohms. You will only get about 2/3 of the Twin volume with an 8 ohm speaker. If you want the full potential of the Twin, your options are: 1) to get an additional 15" 8 ohm speaker and run it in an extension cabinet (use a Y adaptor to run both 8 ohm speakers in parallel from the internal speaker jack for 4 ohms); 2) get an 8 ohm transformer; 3) get the speaker rewound to 4 ohms. It may work to plug another 8 ohm speaker into the external speaker jack - the external speaker jack ran in series or parallel in different model Fenders. There is also the possibility that the JBL in the Peavey is already 4 ohms, but I don't think so (check the specs).The Twin is 100 watts, but a JBL 15 really only handles about 60 watts safely. If you are playing steel with a volume pedal, you are probably safe, because you will mostly be attacking notes with the volume pedal backed off a ways. But be aware that you can blow that speaker if you attack low notes with the volume pedal maxed out. Two JBLs can handle 120 watts, so are safe at any volume with that amp. Also, two JBL 15s will kick butt compared to any two 12s you put in that Twin. Another option (Lloyd Green's solution, and my favorite) is to buy a head cabinet for the Twin chassis, and two 1x15 extention cabinets. If the baffle is glued in, I wouldn't cut it out. That will ruin the resale value of the Twin, unless you sell it to another steeler. If you want to keep the combo configuration, get a custom 1x15 combo cabinet made, and save the original and speakers for resale. ------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards[This message was edited by David Doggett on 01 March 2006 at 07:01 PM.]
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Al Sato
Member From: Texas Hill Country
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posted 01 March 2006 09:38 PM
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You can also buy baffle boards from a cabinet maker. For example, www.mojotone.com makes baffle boards. I think the one for the Twin that they stock is a 2x12 but they will do custom. I got a new baffle for my Deluxe Reverb from them.Al ------------------
So many stringed instruments, so little time... |
Jon Graboff
Member From: NYC, NY
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posted 01 March 2006 09:48 PM
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I got a baffle for my original '65 Twin cut for a single 15" speaker from Mojo guitar parts a while back. It had the bolts for mounting the speaker pre-installed and I had them attach the right style grille cloth at the same time. It was a beautiful job and the installation was a snap. It'll save you a lot of time and the results will look like the amp came from the factory that way.Their web site doesn't list this job specifically but I called them and they knew just what I wanted.
http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/cgi-bin/mojotone/ |
Henry Nagle
Member From: Santa Rosa, California
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posted 01 March 2006 11:43 PM
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Look out.... In my experience a D130 can be pretty easily blown by a Twin. |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 02 March 2006 03:19 AM
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I converted the Twin I had to a 15" K130 (4 ohm model). Not a real big problem. Just have to make a new speaker baffle board and position the speaker so the transformers, etc do not touch. I got some Fender grill cloth and after it was done it looked "factory". Improved the Twin's sound for a steel 100%.The baffle board is screwed in one some models (like the AB768 chassis model I had) and on other's (I think later models) the baffle board was glued on according to what has been posted here in the past. |
Tim Whitlock
Member From: Arvada, CO, USA
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posted 02 March 2006 05:14 AM
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You may like the sound of the JBL even better, once you have it installed in the open-backed Twin. A closed back cabinet compresses the sound a bit, whereas the open backed cabinet allows it to spread out and you get that great 3-D Fender sound. The project can easily be done in a day, or even an afternoon, with basic woodworking skills (assuming you have the screw-in baffle). According to another thread on the same topic, 1/2" plywood is the material of choice, although I had great results with particle board. Careful positioning of the speaker (off center) is essential. You may find that your transformer just fits between the spokes. If you are careful, you can unstaple the grill cloth and peel it off the old baffle for use on the new one. Good luck! |
thurlon hopper
Member From: Elizabethtown Pa. USA
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posted 02 March 2006 05:32 AM
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Just put a JBL E-130 in my 1969 Twin and it souds really nice. I believe that although the D-130 has the sweeter sound, the E series has more power handling capability
The E-130 totally blows away the Pyle Driver that oi took out of the Twin. Right now i'm having a box made fotr a newly reconed Altec 416B, which is a 16 inch speaker. You will like the JBL much better than two 12's. TJH |
Darvin Willhoite
Member From: Leander, Tx. USA
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posted 02 March 2006 07:02 AM
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The JBL in my Twin in the pictures above has been reconed with a 4 ohm kit. I use it very little and when I do use it, it is at low volume so I haven't had any problems with the speaker. I hear that a Black Widow sounds good with a Twin also, but I haven't tried one with mine. ------------------
Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording
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Dave Van Allen
Member From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 02 March 2006 07:06 AM
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the plan of mounting the speaker off center is wise-see the above picture...My '68 Twin Reverb was fitted with a JBL D130f 15" before I got it... whoever did the job CENTERED the speaker... which makes for a VERY tight fit with the Transformer actually invading the space twixt the spokes of the speaker frame... if the speaker isn't turned "just so" it wouldn't fit at all... but it sounds great! I have since installed a Weber California 15" 4 ohm ( a modern JBL style ) which gives me the correct impedance match,slightly more percieved volume and the peace of mind that I am not likely to blow the JBL-which I have since mounted in an old Fender closed-back 2x12 cab for whichI made my own 15 baffle.. I use that with my SF Vibrolux which sounds great for practice and is not powerful enough to kill the JBL. The Weber has broken in nicely over the last couple of years of use... It is a very good "approximation" of the cleanness of the D130- but it still hasn't quite got the "mellow-roonie" that the contemporary (with the amp) JBL does after 30+ years in bars. it's a classic sound!
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Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 02 March 2006 07:16 AM
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It has no distinctive markings that I can see, but I believe my JBL is a K130 according to past descriptions of that speaker here on the forum. It's just black and says "Peavy", model 70777022 and "James B Lansing Sound Inc." And it's 4 ohms. Sombody here once described this as the K130 found in a lot of the late 70's Sessions. I'm no speaker expert. Is this correct? David D., if this speaker is able to handle 200 watts in the Session, can't it handle 100 watts in the Twin? Jon G., did you reinstall the original Fender logo on your new grill? If so, how'd you do it?[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 02 March 2006 at 07:23 AM.] |
Bill Terry
Member From: Bastrop, TX, USA
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posted 02 March 2006 08:16 AM
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quote:
David D., if this speaker is able to handle 200 watts in the Session, ...
Many times it didn't.. I worked for a Peavey dealer when the Session 400 first came out. We replaced many JBLs. Mike Brown may chime in, but I think that was the beginning of Peavey's interest in creating their own speakers, i.e the first BWs. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 02 March 2006 08:26 AM
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As Bill says, a JBL 15 cannot handle the 200 watts of a Session. They blew all the time. JBL refused to improve them for more power handling, and that's why Peavey developed the Black Widow (according to something I read by Harvey Peavey). Even the Weber California 15 copy of the JBL is rated at only 60 watts (80 watts for the ceramic model).For pedal steel, you can get by with a JBL 15 (or Weber California) in a Session or Twin, IF you use a volume pedal, and always have it backed off around half or less as you attack notes (this is the normal way most steelers operate - you're cutting the amp to about 50 watts for attacks, and only approaching the full 100 watts for sustain as the string signal dies out). Even if the amp is cranked to 10, you will usually just be using that amplification to sustain your long notes. The only time your volume pedal will approach all the way down is when your string sustain is dieing off. If you ever get in a loud volume situation where your amp is dimed and your volume pedal is close to bumping as you attack your notes, the speaker is in serious danger. Also, for technical reasons I don't fully understand, a 200 watt solid-state amp is not twice as loud as a 100 watt tube amp. My 135 watt '70s Twin was easily as loud as my 200 watt NV400. So I'm thinking a Session is only a couple of clicks louder than a 100 watt Twin. The Twin was designed to play through TWO JBL 12s. Two of those can handle over 100 watts, and so are safe with a Twin. Likewise, two 15s are plenty safe. You can use one 15 up to moderate volume, and plug in a second one for loud volume. I use two JBL 15s in Marrs cabinets with my Dual Showman 100 watt head. For the occassionally really loud venue with no amp mikes, I use a 180 watt Super Twin Reverb (in a head cab) with those same two speakers. For that, my speakers are a little underated (about like a single JBL 15 with a regular Twin), but I feel safe, because of my use of the volume pedal, as explained above. I am aware I could blow the speakers if the amp is dimed and I am attacking notes with my volume pedal close to maximum - but then, I don't think I would want to be in the same room with that much volume from a Super Twin. I also have a single 4 ohm 15" Eminence rated at 200 watts (Fender put these in the 100 watt '90s Vibrasonics), that I can use with either amp head. But the JBLs sound better, and being able to aim two separate speakers gives more versatility for covering the odd shaped dives I play in. So I'd say that if you use your volume pedal appropriately, you'll be fine with the one K130 up to moderate volumes. Beyond that, you need a second speaker. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 02 March 2006 at 08:32 AM.] |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 02 March 2006 08:27 AM
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I believe that the frequent blowing of the D130's in the Session amps was the impetus to create the BW. If you notice, the BW 1501 is nearly an exact clone of the JBL's cone with the same sized voice coil and the identical curvillinear cone shape. But Peavey knew how to make the speaker more rugged and with a voice coil that could handle the heat. Actually, those early BW 1501's had much thinner paper and were more delicate than today's 1501 which more closely resembles the JBL E130 cone. The old spider web BW's sound real sweet and very much like a JBL, but they don't deliver or handle the power as well as today's BW's. The old Spider Web BW's sound great in a Twin. The new BW's sound great too, but with the thicker paper, they take a lot longer to break an and start singing. A brand new BW 1501 compared to one that's been played hard for a year or so sound like completely different speakers. But that's true too for a new JBL recone too. Really any speaker needs to break in. Whoever came up with the user-replaceable basket for the BW is a total genius in my book. Brad |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 02 March 2006 08:36 AM
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BTW, the black-face Twins (like Darwin's) and reissues are only about 85 watts, and so are a little safer with a single JBL than the silver-face Twins.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 02 March 2006 at 08:37 AM.] |
Bill Terry
Member From: Bastrop, TX, USA
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posted 02 March 2006 09:18 AM
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David,
Generally speaking, double the power and you get 3dB more SPL, that's why 200W doesn't necessarily seem that much louder than 100W. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 02 March 2006 12:20 PM
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Right, Bill, the different ways to measure power, volume and loudness perception can be confusing. When I said doubling, I meant like the difference between 5 and 10 on a linear volume knob (Fenders do not have linear volume knobs). The fact that a Twin is 100 watts, and a Session or NV400 is 200 watts, seems to indicate that a Session on 5 would sound as loud as a Twin on 10. That just isn't the case. A 100 watt Twin on 10 sounds like a Session on about 8 or 9. And a 135 watt Twin on 10 sounds as loud as a Session on 10. I have read explanations for this that have to do with relationships of various harmonics to fundamentals, etc., but I still don't understand it technically. I just know that in my experience, my 135 watt Twin sounded as loud as my 200 watt NV400. And my 180 watt Super Twin blows away the NV400. I would imaging the Super Twin would match a 300 watt NV1000. But I wouldn't want to be in the same room with either one of those on 10 - well, maybe if the room was a coliseum, and I was at the far end.------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards |
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 02 March 2006 12:22 PM
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Doesn't K130 handle more power than D130? |
Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
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posted 02 March 2006 03:41 PM
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Spec sheets on "K" series...
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/k_series.pdf And "E" series...
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/eseries.pdf I think, and I may be wrong, but wasn't the original design the D-1XX and then came the D-1XX-F with a wider voice coil gap and better power handling, then the "K" series which had (maybe) a different surround but essentially the same specs, then the "E" series with a ceramic magnet and even higher power handling capabilities... And I got a kick out of this: quote:
I plugged my Session 400 JBL speaker into my '71 Silverface Twin today ... and the sound was unreal.
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 [This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 02 March 2006 at 03:43 PM.]
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Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 02 March 2006 05:27 PM
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Glad you got a kick out of that, Mark. "Unreal" must be regional slang for "wicked".What type of JBL is this?  |
Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
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posted 02 March 2006 06:10 PM
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I bought the same JBL/Peavey speaker recently. It is the equivalent of the K-130. The JBL-labeled K-130 has the same black magnet cover with a round aluminum label...I believe the one I have is in my storage locker at the moment, but if I can get to it and check the model number I'll post it on this thread. One thing to note, because the Vibrasonic had the 15" speaker I believe the cabinet was actually a little taller. (At least it is on the '90s era Custom Vibrasonic I have.) I happened to find a brand new cabinet for a '65 Twin Custom 15 for sale here on the Forum and put my '74 Silverface chassis and the JBL K-130 speaker in that. Fits perfectly! ------------------
[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 02 March 2006 at 06:16 PM.]
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Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 02 March 2006 08:07 PM
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Thanks, Mark. Sounds like you have a nice rig. |
Marlin Smoot
Member From: Atlanta,Georgia, USA
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posted 03 March 2006 06:32 AM
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Chris,
With all due respect; I would leave your 1971 Fender Twin as is and put the 15 back into the Session. For the reasons you stated...it should give you a very good reason to buy another amp! |
Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 03 March 2006 06:56 AM
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Martin, I think you're right. I don't really want to butcher both amps. According to the advice here, I would be facing a lot of work and adjustments . If I want to bring along my Session with the Twin and run the speaker into it, I can do that. Or Maybe I'll try a Vibrosonic the next time one pops up in my region. Thanks everybody for clearing up all the mysteries of ohms, wattage, handing capacities, differect speaker models, etc. |
Ken Metcalf
Member From: San Antonio, Texas, USA
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posted 05 March 2006 08:37 AM
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I allways wonder when someone converts to 15' speaker...If you go from stock 12s to a JBL 15. how much diff is the speaker size or just the JBL qualityKen Metcalf Carson Wells |
John Billings
Member From: Northfield Center, Ohio, USA
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posted 05 March 2006 10:47 AM
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What's an M35-4? I have one in my Johnson-cabbed Quad that's been converted to Blackface Twin. It sounds GREAT! |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 05 March 2006 01:41 PM
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The M series were 1970s JBL copies of the D130F made at the request of manufacturers like Sho-Bud and Peavey. I think the M stood for "manufacturer", and maybe each manufacturer had a number. The 4 probably stands for 4 ohm. I have an M31 from that period that looks and sounds like a D130F.------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards |
Dave Zirbel
Member From: Sebastopol, CA USA
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posted 05 March 2006 01:54 PM
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I'm getting ready to put an M31 in my twin today!DZ |
Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
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posted 12 March 2006 07:16 PM
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I finally managed to get the Vibrasonic out of storage today.My speaker is the same model number: 70777022 It looks exactly the same (except for the label) as the JBL K-130 that is in my Twin. Hope this helps! ------------------
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Lee Jeffriess
Member From: Yucca Valley California
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posted 18 March 2006 09:29 PM
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Chris, I would try, two 12 inch altec 417-Cs, they are usauly availible, in pairs, on ebay
Or even one with, one of your oxfords, will give the result your looking for, they have the same voice coil as the 418-B its 15 inch counterpart, and they are both 1db more efficient than a jbl.
Plus you dont have to change your baffle.
Lee |
Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 19 March 2006 12:05 AM
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Thanks, Lee....I'll definitely look into that. Sounds like a better option than trying to replace the baffle, etc. |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 19 March 2006 03:25 PM
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Why not just trade for a brand new ”65 Re-Issue Fender Twin~Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence and avoid all the hassle? Then add an extension cabinet if you think you need it! For that, the cabinet would probably be easier to find than the speaker! The Jack is in the chassis, but; the total output is 4-ohm, so; I don't know how you add a external speaker to the existing one! Anybody?------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
n.t.s.g.a. #90
’05 D–10 Derby
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment
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Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 22 March 2006 08:02 PM
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Hey John,Great suggestion, but a new Twin Custom 15" is really expensive where I live, much more than I'd get for the Silverface Twin. I looked into the prices today, and it will run me about $1,400. I probably would do a trade if someone offered, but it's a lot of packing work unless it's a local deal. |
Dave Zirbel
Member From: Sebastopol, CA USA
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posted 22 March 2006 08:25 PM
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I picked up a "blackfaced" SF Twin for $225,(thank you Craigslist.org) had it recapped and retubed by my forum buddy, Steve Walz, cut a new baffle for a 15" JBL M30-sounds fantastic! I'm taking it out for the first time for PSG tomorrow. Used it once for for guitar and lapsteel and was very pleased. Thanks Steve W!!The baffle on this twin was attached with screws so changing it out was easy. It can be easliy restored to the two-12" baffle without any damage to the cabinet. Dz |
James Cann
Member From: Phoenix, AZ (heart still in Boston)
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posted 28 March 2006 08:39 AM
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quote:
IF you use a volume pedal . . backed off around half . . . you're cutting . . to about 50 watts . . . only approaching . . 100 watts for sustain . . signal dies out). Even if . . cranked to 10, you will usually just be using that amplification to sustain your long notes.
I must be exposing some naivete here, but I shudder to think of right foot control when cranked to 10! For the matter, who here has ears to stand it?![This message was edited by James Cann on 28 March 2006 at 08:40 AM.] |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 28 March 2006 11:09 AM
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James, yes, volume pedal control with a Twin cranked to 10 is tricky. For awhile I was playing with a rockabilly alt/country group that played very loud in rock club dives that usually did not mike the guitar amps. The guitar players use 20-50 watt amps cranked up very loud, and the drummer is full tilt all the time. To keep up with them on pedal steel, I had to play through two Twins or a Super Twin. I wasn't playing any louder than they were with their 20 and 50 watt amps, but if I didn't have my amp volume on 10, I would run out of sustain and be bumping my volume pedal. With a single Twin, or my Peavey Nashville 400 (200 solid state watts) I was drowned out in this group, even in rehearsal. A NV1000 (300 ss watts) would have probably been fine, as was the Super Twin (180 all tube watts). Also, when my amp is not miked, I don't like to have the speaker right next to me pointed at my head (not fun with one or two Twins on 10). To match myself to the stage volume (which unmiked is the room volume) I put my speaker in the back line, as far behind me as possible.I think people who say it is easy to play loud but hard to play quietly are wrong. I find it very difficult to play really loud on pedal steel. First of all, every wrong note is really jarring. Playing clams with your volume on 2 is completely different than the room filling clunkers you hit with your volume on 10. And volume pedal control is very tricky. With your foot backed off a fraction of an inch too far, your sound is lost beneath the roar of the group. But if you go a fraction of an inch too loud with your foot, all that Twin power sends roaring mids and ice pick highs throughout the room. Just exactly matching the band's loud volume is a very tricky skill that I have by no means mastered. A twitch of your foot can get you a lot of attention, and not the good kind. This band is temporarily dormant, but if I ever play much with them again, I'll be getting custom fitted ear plugs. I think a lot of steelers who play in loud venues don't need big amps turned up to 10 because they mic their amps through the PA. I wouldn't want to be standing next to one of those mains. With an unmiked amp in a loud rock band, you need a lot of raw power for steel, or your volume pedal becomes useless. ------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards[This message was edited by David Doggett on 28 March 2006 at 11:16 AM.]
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