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Author
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Topic: Clapton w/ a Fender Champ-Amp
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Rick McDuffie
Member From: Smithfield, North Carolina, USA
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posted 08 March 2006 01:36 PM
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I read somewhere that EC recorded the entire Layla album with a Fender Champ-Amp. Does anyone know if that's true. It's incredible. |
Cliff Kane
Member From: Long Beach, CA
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posted 08 March 2006 02:00 PM
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I don't know if that's true, but it makes sense. Legend has it that Jimmy Page recorded early Led Zeplin recordings with a little-bitty Supro amp, probably an eight watt amp, much like a Champ. Small tube amps are da kind in the studio: you can get them loud enough to kick in the power tubes--not only the preamp tubes, but the power tubes where the real honey is--and this can be done at controlled sound levels. The last time I was in a decent srudio we had my Rivera rig and my bandmate's Marshall stack, but the amp we used the most for guitar overdubs was the studio's silver faced Fender Champ: it sounded great, on tape a much huger and sweeter sound than our huge and expensive stage amps. Small tube amps are the way to go in the studio. |
Michael Brebes
Member From: Northridge CA
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posted 08 March 2006 02:06 PM
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Yes, it's true. Clapton and Duane Allman both used Champs. I'm pretty sure they were the tweed 50's versions. |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 08 March 2006 02:10 PM
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I read it too, I'm pretty sure it was in a biography of the Allman Brothers. Both Duane and Eric recorded all their parts on Champs turned up to full blast - they had to put them up on cabinets at ear level to hear themselves over the drums. Kids today with 10 times the toys can't play something with 1/10th the feeling; there's probably some kind of important lesson there, but I must be too dumb to figure it out because I sure need to buy more toys....  |
Tyler Hall
Member From: Alabama, USA
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posted 08 March 2006 02:46 PM
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I have to play with feeling because I'm too cheap to buy very many toys!
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"The Kid"
D-10 Fessenden, Nashville 112, Session 500, BJS, Goodrich LDR |
Dave Mudgett
Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 08 March 2006 03:24 PM
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It's well reputed that the Layla sound is from his sunburst 50s Strat "Brownie" and a tweed Champ amp. It sure sounds like a Champ - they get a certain "zing" like no other amp. I have read various places that there was also a Princeton on that session.For lead guitar tone, it's my opinion that a lot of good amp designers work overtime to get that single-ended tube sound at a higher volume level. |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 10 March 2006 03:00 AM
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I found a tweed Champ in a buddy's attick,
it was his brother in laws, but he sold it to me.
He didn't like him much I guess...  I have had it for 20 years or so,
but just had a rebuild in France
and added a bass roll off knob, on a plate in the back.
Very clean and louder for bassy sounds. Sounds great on my Supro 6 and on Tele.
I have recorded jazz solos with a Ibanez Artist solid body that sound lovely. Coincidentally I have it on the Pro-II at the moment...
fed from the Revelation preamp...
NOW THAT sounds COOL![This message was edited by David L. Donald on 10 March 2006 at 03:03 AM.] |
Matt Dawson
Member From: Luxembourg, Europe
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posted 10 March 2006 03:22 AM
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Duane had another trick up his sleeve....his amazing tele sound on 'Boz Scaggs' Loan me a dime...he (and his amp) were put in the studio toilet. |
Bob Smith
Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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posted 10 March 2006 03:44 AM
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I think that the "all in the hands theory " has something to to with it too. He is in a class by himself. IMO. Layla sounds as fresh as it did 35 yrs ago, to me. bob |
Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 10 March 2006 06:55 AM
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At the risk of getting majorly flamed, I always thought the slide solo at the end of Layla was severely out of tune, with bad intonation everywhere. It always surprised me, seeing that Duane Allman's slide stuff with the Allmans was always dead-on. I'm putting on my asbestos suit...... |
Thomas Bancroft
Member From: Matawan, New Jersey, USA
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posted 10 March 2006 07:44 AM
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It is my understanding that Clapton played the slide parts at the end of Layla rather than the Skydog. Anyone else hear that? Also wonder how heroin affects intonation?Bob S. I'm really liking the Prosonic!!![This message was edited by Thomas Bancroft on 10 March 2006 at 07:47 AM.] |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 10 March 2006 08:24 AM
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I guess everybody DOES know that they were having problems with the tape machines slowing down, so certain songs are out of tune with EACH OTHER and only in tune with themselves? In other words, if you tune to A=440, Eric, Duane & Co. will be out of tune with YOU? I have read no less an authority than Pat Travers proclaim how badly the album sucked because it was "out of tune", which said a great deal more to me about Pat Travers' ear than about the deficiencies of the playing on that album. Name Pat Travers' five greatest songs? Five greatest solos? Yeah right. ------------------
"The sole cause of man's unhappiness is that he does not know how to stay quietly in his own room." - Pascal
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Bob Smith
Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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posted 10 March 2006 09:10 AM
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Hey Tom, Im glad the amp worked out for you, they are killer amps. Its kind of amusing that all of the "out of tune players" (guitar and steel) that are brought up on this forumm are no longer with us?(deceased) Maybe its just my imagination?? peace, bob |
Steve Hinson
Member From: Hendersonville Tn USA
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posted 10 March 2006 04:46 PM
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...Pat Travers...LOL...------------------
http://home.comcast.net/~steves_garage |
Rick McDuffie
Member From: Smithfield, North Carolina, USA
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posted 10 March 2006 06:17 PM
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If I could make an album that was a turning point in rock and roll, I guess it would be alright to be a little out of tune I've got a Princeton... but now I want a Champ- preferably TWEED! DD, I don't think you'd want to be playing a lot of C6 on it, would you?[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 10 March 2006 at 06:19 PM.] |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 11 March 2006 03:38 AM
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Rick with the bass roll off, it sounds fine
at the volume it needs to be. I recorded something with it and liked it.Ya don't NEED to be loud, just good. Im\n my previous rock band around 15 years ago... shudder,
The lead guitar ego in the band had played
second guitar for Pat Travers for around 5 gigs. At gig 5 he wailed a solo badly blowing off Pat's previous solo,
who walked over and told Mel to lay back, " it's HIS SHOW." Mel knocked him out cold on stage, one shot,
then unplugged and split...l
eaving Pat dazed and confused...
and the audience cheering.. LOL. Say no more for Pat Travers! Mel was/is psyco, and I this doesn't surprise me,
also I know someone who saw the show,
still he sure could smoke on the guitar too. |
Rick McDuffie
Member From: Smithfield, North Carolina, USA
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posted 11 March 2006 07:01 PM
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I guess that was a classic case of "Boom, Boom, Out Go The Lights" huh, David |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 11 March 2006 07:52 PM
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Although it's been widely reported that Clapton used a tweed Champ...and it kind of sounds like one...a picture from the session shows him next to a SF Champ.So who really knows. Not that it matters - it just shows how useful smaller amps are in the studio. I have several Champs - tweed, SF, vibro..and they all sound like huge amps when recorded right. The best Fender clean tone I've ever gotten is with a '62 12-watt brown Princeton - sounds like the worlds best Twin, super Reverb, Pro et al but at liveable volume. My rule is to always use the lowest-powered, smallest amp possible for the situation when playing live, and generally small amps in the studio as well. Even a 1/4 watt ZVex Nano tube amp sounds like a Marshall stack when plugged into a a greenback and miked right. I see the same issue with steel as guitar - the "too much amp" syndrome. Even clean tones need to come from an amp driven fairly hard for good tone. |
Dave Mudgett
Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 12 March 2006 08:50 AM
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I always thought it sounded more like a SF Champ, but the press has generally said tweed. It's that upper midrange signature that's different - the SF has a bit more zing there, while the tweed growls more in the lower midrange. I personally prefer the SF Vibro Champ to all Champs for guitar, but tweed for slide. But I think either can be made to work fine with a little EQ.To me, there's a place for both small and large amps. I do agree that, mic'd correctly, a SF Princeton or Deluxe can give the big clean amp sound. I have always viewed large amps more to project from a loud stage, not for recording. To me, running most large amps at their sweet spot tends to overload recording rooms, which tend to be smaller. Part of this is recording style - if parts are tracked in a sterile, anechoic room with ambience added at mixing time, maybe it doesn't matter as much. But that's not what I prefer - I like to hear a good live sound in the room. A 200-300 watt amp in a small room doesn't usually sound good to me. Conversely, running most smaller amps at their sweet spot doesn't get over the stage volume, unless the band works hard to really keep that volume down. But good monitoring can fix this easily. |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 12 March 2006 09:15 AM
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Rick, if memory serves,
he didn't even GET to that song that night.I saw an incredible stage shown in Phuket this evening.
The finale had 130 people and 18 elephants on stage at once, and 20 people flying on wires.
5 elephants rose out of the floor at once....!!
Cool!, my buddy did the multi-aser elements. This was followed out in the free dinner restaurant (for me),
by a band called the Buffaloes...
who truely deserved the Boom Boom Out Go The Lights treatment.... Went from :
Itsey Bitsey Tiny Weeny Polkadot Bikini
Take Me Home Country Roads ( 2nd verse "Minus lady, Stanger to Booze water")
Ackey Breakey Heart
some Alanis Morrisette... Please who, just WHO do I knockout foist... From and electronics point of view....
the big show had super sound, great directionality, and live from the stage vocals too.
But darn it no Fender Champs in sight.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 12 March 2006 at 09:20 AM.] |
Rick McDuffie
Member From: Smithfield, North Carolina, USA
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posted 12 March 2006 11:43 AM
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Bob Smith
Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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posted 12 March 2006 02:27 PM
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Does everybody really think it was an amp, that made that record amazing?? wow |
Chris LeDrew
Member From: Newfoundland, Canada
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posted 12 March 2006 03:35 PM
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No, it was Carl Radle's stash....... |
Bob Smith
Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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posted 12 March 2006 04:34 PM
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I think your right there, Chris!!  |
Dave Mudgett
Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 12 March 2006 06:52 PM
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quote:
Does everybody really think it was an amp, that made that record amazing??
No, but it contributed to it, IMO. A Strat through a Marshall, Twin Reverb, or other typical "amp du jour" of 1970 doesn't sound the same. That Strat through a Champ is a tone unto itself. I'm sure they would have made a fine record if they used something else, but I doubt it would have sounded like it does. Yeah, I know some are gonna say "the tone is completely in the fingers, the equipment doesn't matter a hill of beans". I agree that great music can be made through any equipment. But sometimes the sound made using a particular piece of equipment inspires a musician. Would Itzhak Perlman sound fine through a plywood-top violin? Sure. Why do players of his caliber play a Strad or Guarnieri? Is it all just hype or do they really sound better through the great old fiddle? Same difference here, IMO. Perhaps the Champ was used because it was there, the engineer (Tom Dowd) preferred the lower volume in the studio, or perhaps something else. But there's no denying that it sounds amazing. I don't know any way to make a Twin sound like that. That's the tube-rectified, single-ended, Class A difference. The character of the amp's various nonlinearities matters a lot. IMO. |
Bob Smith
Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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posted 13 March 2006 05:46 AM
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Easy Dave , i was just having a little fun here. We all know EC sounds great through Fenders, Gibsons , Marshalls,etc. just as Mr Perlman would sound great playing a 100 dollar flea market fiddle. I guess my point here is the players were talkin about.I suppose, if the subject here was less noteworthy , I would have had no comment. But your right, great players always use the best gear!! bob |
Rick McDuffie
Member From: Smithfield, North Carolina, USA
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posted 13 March 2006 10:49 AM
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This thread isn't really about the players, it's about that little amp... and how it sounds so HUGE on tape. I'm just amazed at that.Why have I been schlepping these huge, heavy amps around all these years?... Just get a Champ and mic it! |
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
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posted 13 March 2006 12:35 PM
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I remember reading tha Keith Richards used Champs in the studio a lot. And "Sympaty For the Devil" is supposed to be an acoustic guitar, run through a tape recorder. I don't have the album cover anymore (Don't you MISS album covers?), but I think I recall pictures inside, of some SF Champs. I think Tom Dowd's idea. |
Dave Mudgett
Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 13 March 2006 02:31 PM
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Bob - no offense intended, none taken. I agree that it's possible to over-hype the importance of gear. Musicians make music, not amps. But still, us gearheads have to go on about our favorite toys. It's especially nice when it's something small and (still relatively) inexpensive, at least for a SF Champ.Yeah, Rick - Champs are amazing for guitar. To me, a Tele or Strat through a Champ is what I think of as "pure electric guitar tone". I have used a mic'd SF Vibro Champ onstage many times for guitar, if that was the tone I wanted. I have seen plenty of pro acts do the same. Lotsa harp players use Champs on stage like this also, and I'm not talkin' about rookies. They're also great when working an electric guitar (especially Tele) - or even steel - into a quiet acoustic band context. I have played acoustic gigs where the singer insisted I use my Champ. The tone is cool, and the volume not overwhelming. I put an upgraded 8" speaker in mine. Tons of recorded tracks have been made using Champs. Back in the Stax/Volt days, I believe Steve Cropper used a Tweed Harvard, which is pretty similar. Aspen Pittman's Tube Amp book discusses this kind of stuff a lot. Steve, you're right - all kinds of ways to get cool tones, and I sure do miss album covers. Every player I knew used to study those covers to glean tidbits of gear ideas. |
mike nolan
Member From: Long Island City, NY USA
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posted 13 March 2006 04:29 PM
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I recently did an acoustic type gig in a small room in NYC. Sho~Bud into RV-3 out stereo into two BF Vibro Champs.... great!!
My Vibro Champs, one '65 and one '67, both have Weber 10" speakers.... |
Bob Smith
Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA
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posted 13 March 2006 04:42 PM
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Sorry Rick, didnt mean to hijack your thread. |
Rick McDuffie
Member From: Smithfield, North Carolina, USA
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posted 13 March 2006 07:23 PM
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No problem, Bob |
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