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Author
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Topic: Dumble Amps
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John Macy
Member From: Denver, CO USA
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posted 07 October 2006 12:01 PM
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Anybody noticed how high these have gotten? David Lindley's tone through these is pretty amazing. I believe there are only slightly over 200 of these that were made, and John Mayer owns 22 of them... The last one on Ebay went for $30,000.00. Here's one for a steal at only $23,500.00... 
http://www.gbase.com/Stores/Gear/GearDetails.aspx?Item=807708 [This message was edited by John Macy on 07 October 2006 at 12:02 PM.] [This message was edited by John Macy on 07 October 2006 at 12:03 PM.] |
Mike Neer
Member From: NJ
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posted 07 October 2006 12:06 PM
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It's a great sounding amp, no doubt, but there are many great sounding amps out there and an even greater number of techs who can make them sound better.John Mayer owns 22 of them? |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
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posted 07 October 2006 12:56 PM
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What could possibly make this amp command a price of $23,000? Are all internal components made of gold, or titanium?It's not exactly in 'excellent' condition either. It's fairly chipped and dinged, for one. Even if I had the money, I wouldn't pay 23Gs for an amplifier. |
Jerry Erickson
Member From: Atlanta,IL 61723
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posted 07 October 2006 01:10 PM
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One thing that helps add to the tone is the black goop that he covers up some components/circuits with. |
Cliff Kane
Member From: Long Beach, CA
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posted 07 October 2006 02:08 PM
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Twenty-two $23K amps.....that's kind of gross. |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 07 October 2006 02:11 PM
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You either understand these things, or you don't.You're not paying 25 grand for an amp, you're paying 25 grand for an investment...a collector's item. The two "holy grail" amp brands are Dumble and Trainwreck. Both were/are made of extremely high-grade components, dialed in to the nth degree, and are "touch" amps, where they respond to the slightest variation in pick attack, pick angle, where you pick, minute adjustmens of your guitar volume and tone controls (another example of whyI do not understand the LACK of those controls on most steels) etc. Trainwreck's Ken Fischer stopped making amps for health reasons, and his were more or less based on British Marshall and Vox designs. I have never played one, bt they are big in the east coast studios; Dumble's amps are based on the prototypical AB763 circuit, but with all kinds of interesting quirks, and he's west coast based. there are schematics floating around of some early ones, before he started "gooping" the components to hide parts values and designs. Alexander (not Howard...he used to go by Howard) Dumble is a unique guy and is pretty secretive nowdays, although he has given a few interviews in the past. If you want am amp now you plan on giving him a ton of cash up front and waiting years...if he will still make one at all. He's shifted his interest over to high-grade audiophile equipment - and if you think 25k is high for an amp, you've never been around hi-fi freaks, who will pay $500 for a 3' cable. My neighbor has a simple 4x6550 power amp from some small shop - $10k. A pair of speakers was about 8 grand. Back to Dumbles, though - I have had the pleasure of playing through an Overdrive Special and Steel String Singer, and they are truly amazing. If you have weak spots in your attack, or are sloppy, you are dead - they are completely unforgiving, even when overdriven -the articlation is amazing. the singer is the cleaner amp, and the one I think would kill fo steel use. The darned things sound like a living, breathing animal. I'd love to try one with my Fender steel - the tone would probably otherworldly. Maybe Dean Parks will catch this thread and toss in a comment, although I think Alexander has his in for service right now. regardless of Dumble's eccentric reputation, his "star" favoritism, his habit of taking years to service something, he has producd amps that the best players in the world use...and for a reason. When those amps are tools of guys like Lindley, Dean, Larry Carlton and people of that caliber, there is definitely SOME reason for the mystique...and price. And like I said - you understand it...or you don't. Some people think a Twin Reverb turned up to "3" with the Bright switch on sounds great; I'd rather hit my noggin with a baseball bat than hear that sound. Some people will pay $350 for an overdrive pedal...like me; some can use a $25 Dano and be happy. It's all subjective, and there's nothing "bad" about the price - it just is what it is. Add - I just noticed that's a 50W 1978. It might not be a "gooped" amp unless it went back for service. I was actually wondering why the price was *low* - it's one of the few aftermarket-cabinet ones. I'd almost be tempted to sell a bunch of equipment to get it, but my better half might not quite understand an amp worth more than her car.... Last note - with the exception of John Mayer's collection, most of these amps are actually played, not kept under glass. That's how good they are - it's worth the risk. Players will actually use them at club gigs.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 07 October 2006 at 02:16 PM.] |
Cliff Kane
Member From: Long Beach, CA
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posted 07 October 2006 02:43 PM
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Well, I understand that they are great amps, and what it's like to play through an excellent amp, and I understand the difference between a Klon Centaur and a $25 pedal. But I still think it's gross to have twenty-two of them....you don't understand that this is gross? I totally understand tone; I guess I don't understand what it's like to be ridiculously rich. It's not tone that I mean, it's excessive material indulgence, and twenty-two seems grossly excessive, but what do I know? |
John Macy
Member From: Denver, CO USA
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posted 07 October 2006 03:28 PM
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Jim,Don't forget Robben Ford... |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 07 October 2006 03:51 PM
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Guitar Player magazine periodically puts John Mayer on the cover and proclaims him to be "The Savior of the Blues!" (though I thought the blues were doing pretty much OK all by themselves). He plays his Stevie Ray licks adequately enough, but unless/until he stops singing so much like Betty Boop I'm not buying it. Shame about those amps....  |
Cliff Kane
Member From: Long Beach, CA
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posted 07 October 2006 04:02 PM
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Okay, this is a totally post hoc rhetorical question, but I can't resist: How can you play the blues if you've got a $23k amp? (AND Jessica Simpson....lucky b@#%&*@d!)  [This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 07 October 2006 at 04:03 PM.] |
Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 07 October 2006 06:35 PM
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I read somewhere that the Dumble chassis is milled from a solid billet of aluminum, not even stamped from a sheet like any other make.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 October 2006 at 06:35 PM.] |
Keith Cordell
Member From: Atlanta
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posted 07 October 2006 06:59 PM
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An old acquaintance of mine in AZ, Tony Bruno of the band Major Lingo, played Ricky B6's through a Dumble. Nothing else sounds like that... anywhere. They are truly unique amps that are instruments unto themselves. I have heard it said that it takes about 1,000 hours for a GOOD player to dial it in. Not an amp for amateurs or playing "Madison Square Bedroom"... |
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
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posted 08 October 2006 04:49 AM
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And "Howard" says the BEST amp ever built was a Fender DeLuxe Reverb. This topic, like so many on the Forum, is being repeated. The amps are STILL overpriced and overhyped.
Course, Maverick Music, in Charlotte, NC, has Jerry Garcia's Sho-Bud Christmas tree amp, and it's only 50 grand! |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 08 October 2006 07:45 AM
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Steve and Howie, sittin' in a tree...;-) Say "Dumble" and Steve's ears go red! I love to bug him about Dumbles. But I will say, while they are overpriced they are in no way overhyped except by those who have never played...or usually even seen...one. |
Bill Leff
Member From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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posted 08 October 2006 08:01 AM
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The Dumble is truly a "holy grail" amp for many guitar players. There are some nice amps out there that are going for a similar vibe that are more affordably priced (but still expensive), including the Fuchs ODS and Two Rock amps.I've played a Two Rock and it was probably the best sounding amp I've ever played. I think it cost around $5K. Here's a link with some clips:
http://www.dhenderson.com/TwoRock/TRClips/ |
Barry Blackwood
Member From: elk grove, CA
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posted 08 October 2006 08:14 AM
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Is the fact that only the Rich and Famous can afford these amps what makes them coveted by the rest of us peons? |
Keith Cordell
Member From: Atlanta
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posted 08 October 2006 09:36 AM
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Short answer Barry- NO. The expensive stuff is often way overhyped but in this case and in the case of many of the high end "production" amps out there- Dr Z comes to mind- it isn't all hype. You just can't get a sound like that from a mass produced amp.
That being said, some great amps are out there that don't cost an arm and a leg. Too many players are not willing to do the work, though, and end up with the same old crap. For example, you can't touch most of the better Fender amps for less than $1,000. For a little more dough you can get any number of extremely toneful handmade amps that will be every bit as loud and generally have features that an assembly line amp could never have. For what you'd pay for a blackface deluxe you could have your choice of at least 50 great amps that sound better and are more reliable.Victoria, Tophat, Goodsell, Two Rock, Dr. Z... the list is long, and it requires a commitment to getting a tone that you really are inspired by as opposed to one that "gets 'er done". |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 08 October 2006 09:50 AM
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What Keith said.The best mid-wattage amp I have is a Holland (now unfortunately gone) Little Jimi - a 30 watt, 2x10 tone monster. Hand-wired, 3-knob reverb, and unique tone shaping that sounds Fender-ish when clean (but full and rich sounding) and shifts into cranked-up AC30-land when turned up. the kind of amp that you run almost wide-open, and control the sound from your guitar volume control - because when it hits the top clean volume, turning it up doesn't go louder, it shifts tonally. It's a musical instrument itself. That's what the better makers do - start with an identifiable tonal base and improve on it. But it takes some experience playing these types of amps to undestand how they work - you don't just set the controls on "5", plug in and play. You have to learn how to "fly" them. |
Nathan Golub
Member From: Durham, NC
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posted 09 October 2006 08:35 AM
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Here's an interview with Howard Dumble-
http://forums.birdsandmoons.com/forum/printthread.php?t=24532 Wikipedia also has some interesting links with more info-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumble_Amplifiers |
James Quackenbush
Member From: Pomona, New York, USA
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posted 09 October 2006 04:56 PM
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I've had the benefit of playing thru a couple of Trainwrecks....They are nothing short of incredible, but the prices are basically "investment" type prices as the amps are for the collector ..The same can be said for the Dumbles...GREAT sounding amps but carry a "collector" price ...For the average Joe , there are plenty of clones out there that will come in sounding very close , and sometimes even have a more adjustable tone for a LOT less money ...But then again, we're still talking 3 grand or so for a good clone !!....Sometimes if you want a certain tone, and cannot live without it, you're gonna pay for it , sooner or later ....You will stop playing and go for a snack with a good sounding amp, and have a smile on your face ....You will NOT stop playing , and miss lunch and dinner both, and a non existant smile on your face with a GREAT sounding amp !!.... |
ajm
Member From: Los Angeles
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posted 09 October 2006 05:47 PM
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So John Mayer has 22 of them? I'll believe that when I see it. And for what it's worth, the latest news is that he is no longer associated with Jessica Simpson. And not to change the thread topic, but I played one of his signature model guitars and loved the fat neck.I have heard that he has used Dumbles in the past, but the last article that I read from him in GP I don't recall him mentioning them at all. He did however mention Two Rock. A final note: I remember years ago when a store in west LA was having a moving sale. They had two Dumbles advertised at $450 each. If only I'd have known then......
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Artie McEwan
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T. C. Furlong
Member From: Vernon Hills, Illinois, USA
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posted 09 October 2006 06:24 PM
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This past weekend I saw Nashville session ace Brent Rowan demonstrating PRS guitars at the Audio Engineering Society convention in San Francisco. What was he playing through? Why a Dumble head of course!Sounded really really good.
TC |
Gerald Menke
Member From: Brooklyn, NY, USA
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posted 10 October 2006 09:20 AM
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A little while back I saw Sonny Landreth playing on a bill with the Campbell brothers. What a night that was. Anyway, Sonny was playing a Strat through a Dumble, and his tone really was out of this world. Now, was that because I saw he was playing a through a Dumble and my brain said "Dang, listen to that, must be because of the amp!" or was it that Sonny is a real monster player? Hard to say, but he really did sound incredible, used virtually no effects, just the volume knob on his guitar. I noticed that the overdrive seemed incredibly smooth and rich, all the intervals just seemed perfectly in tune and integrated sounding. I have read and heard that both the Two-Rock and Fuchs amps are really good Dumble clones. Fuchs makes a 6 6L6 amp that is rated at 150 watts with reverb. When I hit the big time, I'm a gonna get me one.Fun topic. He made a rack mounted preamp that I have seen for sale, Dumbleator or something similar, I would definitely grab one of those if I could! But a 30K amp? Seems a bit over the top, I'd send some poor kids to college instead, I think. |
James Quackenbush
Member From: Pomona, New York, USA
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posted 11 October 2006 07:19 AM
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Gerald,
Funny you mention the Fuchs 6-6L6 amp....I have heard the Fuch's 100 watt 4-6L6 in person and it's an incredible amp ...I'm sure that the 150 watt model must be just as nice with more clean headroom ...What a GREAT sounding amp that would be for pedal steel !!..Plenty of natural sustain and tone !!!...I've had TwoRock's in the past, but I like the Fuch's amps more ...They seem to be much smoother to me....Jim |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 11 October 2006 09:35 AM
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The purpose of an amplifier is to "amplify" the volumn so it can be heard at the "back of the room"! That can be done with most amplifiers that are marketed today... so what is the purpose of buying one that costs $23,000?  |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 11 October 2006 01:04 PM
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As everyone knows, you always get exactly what you pay for, and in this case you will get exactly $23,000 poorer. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 11 October 2006 03:10 PM
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Gene, I have to disagree with you on this one. For vocals and acoustic instruments, yes, the purpose of an amp or PA is to reproduce the original sound as accurately as possible, but at louder volume. But that has not been the case for electric guitars and steels since the dawn of the amplified era 80 years ago. Except for hollow-bodies, electric guitars with magnetic pickups have very little tone of their own other than the bare strings. From the beginning, the amp circuitry, tubes (or transistors) and guitar speaker basically created the tone of the instrument. They are in fact part of the instrument. Almost by accident it was found that the limited range of guitar speakers sounded better for guitars than a flat full-range speaker system. When solid-state amps came along, it became recognized that the tubes imparted tone that many preferred over transistors. It then became a high art to manipulate tube tone to compress and sustain the signal, as well as to add harmonics. It makes perfect sense that the top instrument makers in this realm of creating electric tone are paid high prices by pro musicians who want that tone. This is still nothing compared to the six and seven figure prices classical musicians pay for their instruments. |
John Steele
Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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posted 11 October 2006 03:56 PM
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Cliff asks: "How can you play the blues if you've got a $23k amp?""Playin' the blues isn't about making yourself feel better. It's about makin' other people feel worse! "
- Bleedin' Gums Murphy |
Mike Shefrin
Member From: New York
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posted 11 October 2006 05:25 PM
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I must be a "dumb-bell". I never even heard of this amp.[This message was edited by Mike Shefrin on 11 October 2006 at 05:27 PM.] |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 11 October 2006 07:33 PM
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Mike, they are very rare and not well knownin the steel world, so you're not dumb at all"The purpose of an amplifier is to "amplify" the volumn so it can be heard at the "back of the room"!" Not to anyone I know. That's just a small piece of it. If you want to do that, I can hand you a 25 watt Frontman and you can be heard in the back of the room - but you'll sound like crap. Tone, Gene. That's the ticket. Volume is not even an issue - it can be altered with good sound support. To my mind, the purpose of an instrument amplifier is to electronically enhance the instrument's natural tone to an audible level. A secondary effect would be to do that while enhancing, or making more appealing to the ear, the tone of the instrument. A subjective view, to be sure. If you don't understand both the tonal qualities and the collector's mentality when it comes to Dumble, Trainwreck, prewar Martin D-45's and D-28's, D'Angelico's, etc., then it's a tough point to discuss - you will not understand any rationale behind the value of such items, because they do not have that value to YOU. Just try to accept that people collect/enjoy such things and appreciate either the uniqueness, the quality, or both. Some people pay large amounts for baseball cards. Do they have a practical purpose? What about rare coins or stamps? The nice thing about "collectable" instruments/equipment is they can be used to make other people happy as well. So what does it matter to you if someone wants to pay $23k for a "partial" Dumble? To me it's more silly to pay huge amounts for NEW cables, or audiophile amps...or volume pedals, for that matter. "...but I like the Fuch's amps more" Personally, I have a problem with his methodology. He started out by destroying vintage amps in the process of "converting" them to so-called Dumble clones, a practice most techs find deplorable. There is a finite quantity of vintage amps in the world, and hacking apart a blackface Bassman subtracts one vintage amp, and accomplishes nothing, really - why not only build amps from scratch rather than wiping out vintage stock? "Hacker" is the term used for "techs" that operate in this mode. There are some other terms, but I can't post them here. Two Rock I respect. I wouldn't take a Fuchs for free.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 11 October 2006 at 07:39 PM.] |
William Clark
Member From: Chicago, IL USA
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posted 11 October 2006 09:15 PM
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I was in Mak'n Music in Chicago about 5 years ago and there was a Dumbell Super Overdrive stuck behind the counter at the store. I asked a friend of mine who worked there "Dare I ask, how much for the Dumbell?" He told me that it had been sold to none other than Carlos Santana. At that time, it went for $25k. About a month after I saw the amp in the shop I saw Carlos playing it on the Conan O'Brian show. The only other super overdrive I had ever seen was at Daves Guitars in LaCrosse, WI. It was tagged at $25k at a guitar show. At the time I knew nothing about Dumbell and thought they were crazy for asking so much. By the time I made it through the second pass at the guitar show it was gone. Aspen Pittman has some interesting things to say about his amps in the latest edition of the Tube Amp book. |
sonbone
Member From: Dallas, Texas
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posted 12 October 2006 01:49 AM
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Does anyone know if any Dumbles have been made recently? I thought they went for about $10,000 new. That doesn't seem that much considering the very limited number produced. I suspect that Mr. Dumble did (does?) spend a great number of hours on each amp. Don't know what his other job or jobs are, but at 4 or 5 units a year at 10 grand a pop minus parts, he's not getting rich! |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 12 October 2006 05:23 AM
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quote:
This is still nothing compared to the six and seven figure prices classical musicians pay for their instruments.
Actually, I believe that nowadays few classical musicians own their own instruments, at least the very high-end Guarneris, Stradivaris and such. Instead, a consortium of investors with interests in classical music buy them up and "loan" them to prominent musicians - these are often the same people who sponsor the operas, raise funds for buildings and salaries etc. They get to hobnob with "their" musicians and feel a certain sense of ownership - classical music always was, and still is, a business before an art (don't tell the musicians though).OPEN NOTICE TO INVESTORS:
If you have any grimy old Les Pauls, Stratocasters, Dumbles etc. laying around collecting dust, I will play them for you, O.K.? "Smoke on the Water", "Freebird", you name it. Thnx! |
John Macy
Member From: Denver, CO USA
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posted 12 October 2006 06:11 AM
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My sister and brother inlaw are both working classical musicians/teachers--not in the league to get instuments laid on them as mentioned above, but good working, pro players. Her cello ran $40K and the piano in their house was $75K... Makes my steel rig feel like a bargain... |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 12 October 2006 06:28 AM
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"Does anyone know if any Dumbles have been made recently?"He's not making any more as of right now - it could change, but with his turn to high-end audiophile equipment it's doubtful there will be any more guitar amps. That $10k price was the last thing anyone heard about 4-5 years ago. I don't recall hearing about any new ones since then. |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 12 October 2006 06:41 AM
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...gee whiz, I only asked a question! I'm just a country boy who thought an "Airline" with a six inch speaker was high-tech, and everything since has been another WOW for me. I send my apology for being a "dumbell" about a "Dumble"! |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 12 October 2006 07:01 AM
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"...gee whiz, I only asked a question!"No, Gene - actually you commented on your perceived purpose of an amplifier, which implied anything would do. Many top notch players got these ampsyears ago, and while they have often bought/sold plenty of equipment, rarely do any of them sell a Dumble, and they could make a ton of money off it. If they were strictly kept for investment, that would be one thing - but they *play* these amps. That tells you something about the ACTUAL value in sound - you don't take a $25,000 amp to a gig unless it sounds REALLY good. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 12 October 2006 07:55 AM
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Gene, we know you just made an innocent comment off the top of your head that echoed what many people were thinking on first glance at the subject. We know you are a reasonable guy.  We just took that as a convenient jumping off place to explain how amps could be valued by some players for much more than their mere amplification ability. |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 12 October 2006 08:01 AM
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quote:
...which implied anything would do
Jim...if I really thought that anything would do, I would still be playing through an "Airline". To both Jim and David....I appreciate the remarks contributed by both of you on this subject, and no offense was taken. Sometimes I revert to my previous occupation of "Devil's Advocate", but I do not intend to be offensive...just keeping the discussion active. Seriously, after reading the plethora of discussion about Dumble amps that my comment generated, I sure would like to hear a demonstration of one![This message was edited by Gene Jones on 12 October 2006 at 09:05 AM.] |
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
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posted 12 October 2006 09:14 AM
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Gene, it's my silly opinion that if a player needs a 23K amp to get a good tone, then he ought to go get it. But if a good Fender, Marshall, or PEAVEY amp satisfies the player, then that's what he ought to be playing. I wonder how many of these guys, other that Sliff, have even SEEN a Dumble up close? I know I haven't, and I don't care to. Way too much of Howard's attitude has gotten under my skin, after hearing about this meathead for over twenty years, for me to EVER think much of the man, or his amps.
A guitar amp is a piece of electronic equipment, PERIOD. I don't care if Leo Fender, Howard Dumble, or anybody else built it, it's a machine. Did Howard build his own speakers? Make his own tubes? NO, but a few high-profile players got ahold of his amps, which made him start spouting psychedelic mish-mosh about his amps.
DUMBLE, SCHMUMBLE!!! |
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