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Author
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Topic: The eternal quest for tone...
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Mike Winter
Member From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
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posted 10 December 2006 11:10 PM
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I wonder sometimes about the following: If the ultimate tone/sound desired is the tone of say, Buddy Emmons or Lloyd Green in the sixties, why go for all the digital effects, fancy gizmos, fancy volume pedals, etc., that are popular today? It seems to me that if THAT tone/sound is desired, then aside from the actual playing style, the original gear should be duplicated. Just use what they used and you'd be good to go...and you'd save a lot of money in the process. Just a thought.  |
Jack Stoner
Sysop From: Inverness, Florida
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posted 11 December 2006 02:56 AM
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Just because you have the exact same equipment as your hero, that won't make you sound like him. Develop your own sound and style and forget about how someone else sounds. Beside they already have someone that sounds that way - him. I used to think I was going to be another "Chet Atkins" on guitar - even bought a Gretsch Chet Atkins guitar - but then I figured out they already have a Chet and don't need another. |
Larry Behm
Member From: Oregon City, Oregon
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posted 11 December 2006 04:45 AM
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Mike let's find out if Buddy uses a Hilton pedal and a Black Box or Revelation, True Tone pickups and digital effects. He is maybe the number one gear head, why, because he is open to new ideas and sounds, it is part of the fun of the process.Larry Behm |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 11 December 2006 05:50 AM
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"If the ultimate tone/sound desired is the tone of say, Buddy Emmons or Lloyd Green in the sixties, why go for all the digital effects, fancy gizmos, fancy volume pedals, etc., that are popular today?"All just my opinion...before any coffee: Some has to do with live playing - Green used a Deluxe Reverb in the studio (at least at times) and that's a very hard sound to duplicate live. And the push-pull sound comes from an instrument that, while still very good, has limitations some don't want to deal with...so you have to use outboard gear to try to get "there". And it's also just natural progression - not everyone is looking for those sounds, they're looking for a more modern sound, and modern gear is then the way to go. Unfortunately, not many players go for a *personalized*, recognizable sound of their own - they spend a lot of time trying to copy past or present greats rather than developing their own voice. To me, that's the more creative direction to go. |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 11 December 2006 05:54 AM
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Well Mike, give it a few years and let us know how it works out.EJL |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 11 December 2006 10:03 AM
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It seems that people today are still wanting what was good about the tone back in the days, but also wanting the modern benefits of louder, lighter, and lower maintenance. Back then, 80 watts was about as powerful as you could practically get from a tube amp, and even at that rating the weight was very heavy. I see today that people are trying to inject the tube sound into a lightweight rig using either amp modeling devices or actual tube devices, while keeping the power amp portion solid state for all of its benefits. A good example is Paul Franklin. I understand that for years his recording rig has been a Boogie tube preamp and a Mosvalve power amp. The Boogie preamp is basically an old '60s Fender preamp circuit, but with a few added channel switching/overdrive options. So right there the vintage sound is largely re-created, but then the modern power amp does the driving of the speakers. I think the modern sound has more to do with modern pickups and also how guys like to EQ the steel guitar. A lot of the "modern" sound is still done with vintage amp rigs, but perhaps set differently. Brad |
Mike Winter
Member From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
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posted 11 December 2006 10:49 AM
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Thanks guys. It crossed my mind because I have known a number of six-string players over the years who wanted that old vintage sound, so they played old fifties Telecasters or Gretchs through vintage amps...no effects other than an echo plex. Some steelers hardly change anything over the years; others change continuously. I'm still learning, so I figured I'd learn more by asking. Thanks. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 11 December 2006 10:49 AM
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Who says the classic sounds of steelers in the '60s are the ultimate tone? Maybe that '60s stuff would have sounded even better with today's technology. Or maybe it would sound the same, but the modern equipment would be more reliable and trouble-free. The Hilton volume pedal is a good example. It sounds as good or better than any pot pedal, but we don't have to worry about replacing the pots when they inevitably get scratchy (and apparently it is hard to find high quality pots today). Also, maybe we want more versatility than was available in the past. In addition to the '60s sounds of Buddy and Lloyd, maybe some of us also want the great '60s sounds of Jimmy Hendrix and Cream and Wes Montgomery. And we might also want some '70s, '80s, or '90s sounds. Regular guitar players have long enjoyed a huge smorgasbord of different sounds. Why should steelers be confined to the sounds of a few guys 40 years ago, no matter how good they were (and they were good)? |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
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posted 11 December 2006 11:15 AM
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quote:
If the ultimate tone/sound desired is the tone of say, Buddy Emmons or Lloyd Green in the sixties
Those are two very different things, so it seems to me that at best that premise could be half correct. |
Dick Wood
Member From: Springtown Texas, USA
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posted 11 December 2006 01:54 PM
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It's funny that after all these years of playing, the thought never crossed my mind to go buy something to sound like Buddy or Paul or whomever.I always bought a particular guitar because it was well made, easy to play,stayed in tune etc. I feel and always will believe that if you are wanting to sound like your personal hero then only alot of practice and talent will get you 90% there and the guitar will get the other 10% or so. ------------------
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 11 December 2006 06:59 PM
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MIke.I cut the long ramble. I, like Pete and Doug, the guys you have the most professional contact with have simply used the best stuff we could get to get the sound that we wanted. I don't think it's "toys" as much as "tools". Now it's easier to get a "retro" sound if we want. (God they're making "New" Old stuff all the time.) I try, and I know Pete and Doug do a great job on their different sounds for different songs and venues. If a guy wants to get the best basic machinist skills, he of course learns how to read old micrometers, and how to use old calipers, but to make his work as exact as he can, and to compete with todys tolerances, he'll get the newest digital measuring tools. And then he goes to work. I suppose it was easier in times of more plentiful work, just like in the machine trade, or any other trade, and I feel lucky to be able to work so long in a "non karoke"/MADD climate before it all started folding up. Still there are things like BIAB, and so many more ways to record, that a person that wants to play and learn will always be able to do so. That's my 2 cents. EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 12 December 2006 at 08:28 PM.] |
Jim Sliff
Member From: Hermosa Beach California, USA
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posted 11 December 2006 07:53 PM
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"You can get a PERFECT 24bit Tube Amp Model out of a Boss, a Pod, or even a Behringer."Uh, Eric - your medication is wearing off. Not only is the tone a pale reproduction lacking tube dynamics...you can't keep your hands warm at the back of the amp between songs! ;-) |
Mike Winter
Member From: Oregon City, Oregon, USA
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posted 11 December 2006 08:07 PM
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U da man, Eric...thanks.  It was all a hypothetical question anyway, hence the "if" verbiage. The instrument is a kick, and the Forum a true marvel. Thanks to all that make it so. I wish I had begun my steel journey 30 years ago. |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 11 December 2006 08:31 PM
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Mike. Just a few thoughts off the top of my graying head..Well Jim, maybe not "Perfect"... Nothing is.. I still get a kick out of guys that listen to their 78s and 8 tracks swearing that they can hear the ones and zeroes in the CDs and they drive them nuts..... (overheard in the control room of a top studio..) "Look at him out there, he's happy as hell with that old Twin, and spring mike... It makes him feel better.. Great how we snuck that "direct box" in.. Yeah. Do the "Fender Blackface model..". "GREAT CUT!". "Nothing like those Old Fenders, huh Lloyd..... " There are enough examples out nowadays of people not being able to tell.. You're right about the hand warmer thing.. I'd prefer the flames from old mahogany..  EJL |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 12 December 2006 10:05 AM
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IMHO, neither Lloyd nor Buddy use anything close to the tones they used back then. Tastes change, and most players' sounds evolve naturally over time. Some of it is due to equipment changes, and some of it is due to the desire for both refinement and variety. |
Sonny Priddy
Member From: Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA
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posted 12 December 2006 11:15 AM
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I Sound Like Me And Nobody else Does.ha.ha. SONNY.------------------
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Mitch Ellis
Member From: Mississippi, USA
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posted 12 December 2006 09:01 PM
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The last paragraph of Jim's first post hit's "close to home" for me. I have spent alot of time trying to learn "licks" played by the greats, but still, I would love to have my own "personalized" sound. When I play " Farewell Party", the sound of my gear sounds very close to Lloyds. When I play "Look at us" my gear sounds very close to John Hughey's sound. "A way to survive"......... Buddy Emmons. Why is this? All of these men have set "benchmarks" with their tone. I LOVE the way they sound. Still, I want to sound like "Mitch" no matter what song I play. I guess my question is this.....If 90% of steel players use all-pull guitars and solid state amps, whats the biggest thing that makes us sound different?
Mitch |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 13 December 2006 03:27 AM
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quote:
When I play " Farewell Party", the sound of my gear sounds very close to Lloyds. When I play "Look at us" my gear sounds very close to John Hughey's sound. "A way to survive"......... Buddy Emmons. Why is this?
Do you think it could be because you're playing the exact same licks, on nearly the same gear, and shooting for a similar tone?(This is what's known as the "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's probably a duck" theory.) I've probably heard a thousand different guitar players kick off "Folsom Prison", and they all sounded pretty much like Luther Perkins. There's really no mystery in that. Only when you stop copying other player's songs, licks, and sounds will your stuff begin to sound different.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 13 December 2006 at 03:31 AM.] |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 13 December 2006 05:00 AM
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quote:
You're right about the hand warmer thing... I'd prefer the flames from old mahogany.
Cackle, cackle.... Brad makes the point that that's all they had back then. Of course Hendrix used four Marshall stacks, because two weren't loud enough.... Leo Fender's main design parameters, besides making a six-string "guitar" that played OK, were that it could be made cheaply by uneducated workers on currently-available furniture-making equipment. Jim Marshall's only design parameters for his "legendary" closed-back speaker cabs were that they use as little cheap wood as possible to cover four speakers, what's a Thiele-Small parameter?People got used to the noises coming out of this stuff, and now they think it's the only "right" sound. I won't even buy stuff from companies that advertise "authentic vintage tone", "vintage tone" to me can just as easily be "Hawaii Five-0" or "Bonanza" as it can be Eric Clapton with the Bluesbreakers. Remember all those great guitar tones on the old Cowsills records? Of course you don't, thank God. I can't even listen to Janis Joplin cause her band sounded so awful. Now they've cloned her into Joss Stone, too bad I hate blues too....  |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 13 December 2006 06:28 AM
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......like using an antique "slide rule" for scientific notation instead of one of those newfangled TI calculators! |
Jim Ives
Member From: Los Angeles, California, USA
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posted 13 December 2006 01:15 PM
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"Simplify, simplify" words of advice from Thoreau apply here. I just use the amp reverb when playing PSG. Clean is the goal.Sometimes I overdrive a bit when playing the lap steel for the rock band I am in.The rest of the stuff on my pedal board is reserved for when I play my Strat. Jim ------------------
Mullen D-10 -or- Zum D-10 Little Roy Wiggins S-8 lap steel. Fostex VF-160
Fulltone Full-Drive II
Holy Grail reverb
RV-3
Vox wah-wah/volume pedal
Peavey Nashville 1000 -or- 112
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