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 Steel Without Pedals (Page 1)
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Gene Jones Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA |
posted 09 December 2006 09:56 AM
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It seems to me that some of you guys in the "Steel without Pedals" are ethnocentric about steel guitar styles, but there are many pedal steelers who began without pedals. We are all steel guitarists, so why do we have this line of demarcation between us? A steel guitar player is a steel guitar player...does it really matter if some mechanical pedals are used by some? ------------------ [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 28 December 2006 at 04:45 AM.] |
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Andy Sandoval Member From: Bakersfield, California, USA |
posted 09 December 2006 10:28 AM
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Doesn't matter to me. I started out on dobro and am learning to play lap steel and pedal steel also,I enjoy all of them. The lap and pedal have their own unique challenges that that when finally learned can be very rewarding. |
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Matt Rhodes Member From: Houston, Texas, USA |
posted 09 December 2006 10:49 AM
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Gene, When we're not practicing, gigging, or at our day jobs, we have to stand for something. How can we make any progress on an issue if we can't argue about it? I for one know for a fact that a pedal steel guitar is far superior to a non pedal. ------------------ |
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Gary Lynch Member From: Creston, California, USA |
posted 09 December 2006 11:37 AM
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Gene, What brand/model was that non pedal you used with the Rogers Brothers? |
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Gene Jones Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA |
posted 09 December 2006 12:46 PM
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The first was a Supro twin, followed by a Fender three neck Custom.....and then 15 years later, a Fender 1000. All of them were "steel guitars"! ------------------ Some songs for the season: |
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Bill Hatcher Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA |
posted 09 December 2006 12:53 PM
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Really no line. This is just a forum for this instrument. Keep from clogging up one big forum on all steels. Makes it easy to get the info you need on what type of steel you play. |
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John Bushouse Member From: |
posted 09 December 2006 01:20 PM
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Y'all started it, with the forum "Pedal Steel." But we're open to lots of steel guitar styles - Hawaiian, surf, country, Indian, even mechanical steel. |
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Scott Thomas Member From: Oregon, USA |
posted 09 December 2006 01:51 PM
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Yeah, plus Gene where are you going to retreat to when you get tired of hearing about copendants, cabinet drop, Day vs. Emmons, U-12 vs. double 10, is it plastic or carbon fiber, Jerry Garcia's solo on "Teach Your Children" (and hey, how about that Robert Randolph?) etc. etc. ad nauseum. Can you tell I have spent some time over there on the "Dark Side"? Just enough to know I don't want any part of it--yet! (But try me next week.)  Oh, and to be sure, we have our own issues over here, and I know you have been posting long enough to be able to recount some of them. (Please don't.) |
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Nathan Hernandez Member From: Riverside, California, USA |
posted 09 December 2006 02:44 PM
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The reason I play non-pedal steel guitar, and switched to non-pedal, is I feel, and this soley is a personal oppinion is that Pedal Steel guitar has lost a bit of its soul! It could be the type of music I listen to or the time period of it. I know that peopple like Speedy West were useing pedals at this time but its not the way pedal steel is played today. It was more about style, and tone, it seems, back then, and now it seems to be sound and speed picking instead of style, and Im sorry but todays tone to my ears is dry. I cant pick out one individuals style of playing to anothers when I listen to todays music. This is not the fault of the players but the producers and the same goes for the dry tone. Dont get me wrong I love the pedal steel guitar players, David Brazinsky is one of my top 5 players to see and he is a friend, and Blacky Taylor is my God and my teacher. But I do believe, that if you dont have pedals,,, all your left with is the essance of style,,,, and tone,,, and the forever search of that. As far as pedal steel guitar being a "superior" instrament,,, there all made out of the same stuff,,, wood metal and wiers!!! Its just that pedals makes it easyer to find that next transition with a gliss. But on the not of the subject at hand we are all brothers and we all play "STEEL GUITARS"! But when I talk to pedal steel players I seem to get the same response,,,"why do you play that, you cant play this on that, and the ever frusterating, why dont you play a REAL steel guitar". Im am glad that there is a place for us to convers, and argue on the forum as non pedalers!!!!!!! |
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Bill Creller Member From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA |
posted 09 December 2006 07:09 PM
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The guy who said "why don't you play a real steel guitar" didn't know what the hell he was talking about. |
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Richard Sevigny Member From: Vancouver, BC, Canada |
posted 09 December 2006 07:43 PM
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I agree the definition is a bit artificial. That being said, I don't think non pedalers are any more "insular" than the pedalers. Playing with pedals involves a different headspace and seems to me to be a lot more chord/texture oriented and less linear. Without pedals requires slanting which makes it more "right brain" oriented IMHO. I think we all have a common interest in "steel guitar" or we wouldn't frequent this board. Once we're here, we have some divergence because there are technical differences between the instruments and the needs of the players differ. I love steel guitar in all its forms, even if I'm admittedly (CAUTION: heretical statement follows)not a hardcore country or hawaiian fan. There's still lots of common ground for us to meet on. The Steel on the Web, Music, and Humor sections are places were we all mix it up. |
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Al Terhune Member From: Newcastle, WA |
posted 09 December 2006 08:06 PM
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quote: Ooooh, I don't know. If you think about the combinations presented with several pedals and knee levers and ten strings (or more), I find pedal steel more brain taxing. I switch on and off again from preferring lap to pedal, but slants--in my narrow opinion--really are more technique and practice-oriented than brain thought. And many pedalers use slants when playing. I do when I play pedal, just because I incorporate it from lap and it gives me even more combinations. With lap, you do have to be more creative, and I love that about having no pedals. Playing lap has made me a better pedal steel player, no doubt. I highly recommend both -- life's too short. For those who feel their "Hawaiian" music would suffer, take a look at Basil. He knows how to produce some nice Hawaiian music on a pedal steel. Al |
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Bob Hickish Member From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA |
posted 09 December 2006 08:10 PM
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Gene Love the tunes you posted ! one thing I can say for Standard steel - its were I started and after leaving the pedals in 79 ! when I went back to playing ! -- 20 years later -- I found the last remaining brain cell had pas away , when I picked up my old String Master there was life . I don't think I have had more fun playing Steel than I am now ! so I think I will just enjoy what you do with your guitar through you music and look for that elusive cord on fender . after all I achieved mediocrity back then and I'm all-most back . Take care Bud ! your tops Hick [This message was edited by Bob Hickish on 09 December 2006 at 08:13 PM.] |
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Kay Das Member From: Singapore and Irvine CA |
posted 09 December 2006 09:37 PM
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An example of a pedal/non-pedal "agnostic" recording, "Still My Soul", with Chuck Lettes (pedal) and myself (non-pedal) alternating at the link below: featuring both steel types; a case may be made that they are in fact complementary musical instruments. http://www.hsga.org/membersrecordings/ChuckLettes/StillMySoul.mp3 ------------------ |
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Andy Sandoval Member From: Bakersfield, California, USA |
posted 09 December 2006 10:06 PM
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I know when asked, "what instrument do you play" I have always replied, steel guitar. |
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George Keoki Lake Member From: Edmonton, AB., Canada |
posted 09 December 2006 11:09 PM
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Gene...Luv ya guy, but I gotta disagree with you. The Pedal and Non-Pedal are as different as the Violin and the Cello. When I read the comments in the Pedal section about all the mechanics, etc., I'm left bewildered as I have NEVER played a pedal guitar and have absolutely no desire to start at this late stage of the game. Don't get me wrong...I think Pedal Guitars are great. In the proper hands, (and feet), they can do what we Non-Pedal guys can only dream about. But the style of playing is so different from Non-Pedal even though we all use picks and a bar....(the Violin and the Cello both have 4 strings and use a bow). Let's keep the two in separate threads....I'm happy.  [This message was edited by George Keoki Lake on 10 December 2006 at 03:56 AM.] |
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Edward Meisse Member From: Santa Rosa, California, USA |
posted 10 December 2006 12:21 AM
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I'm with George. I just don't want to even think about all that mechanical stuff. I also don't want to haul all that stuff around with me. I'd never play pedals. But go on ahead. It's a fine sounding instrument. Love your tunes. |
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Philip Bender Member From: North Vernon, IN, USA |
posted 10 December 2006 12:42 AM
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Aloha all, I got my start on a converted Spanish guitar with raised nut. and studied the Oaha system. Between then and now, I have tried to play Sho Bud s-10 & d-10 in 2 Gospel groups, and found the experience fantastic, had to do with Who I was playing for, not what. Don Fullmer and I have been playing together for 4 years or so, and with him on pedal steel, and me on whatever non pedal steel I pick up, we, at times come up with some pretty hot licks. As JB said, it's the player, not the instrument that makes the difference, viva la difference. We all should appreciate the gift, and keep on pickin. Back in gear again, thanks be to the Lord and medicine. Thanks for the great Forum Phil Bender |
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basilh Member From: United Kingdom |
posted 10 December 2006 12:48 AM
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OK, then how do you see this, NON pedal (Fender Deluxe-8) :- Steel Guitar Rag Pedal (Emmons D-10) :- Sleepy Lagoon Because, I see the first one as beyond beginner level sitting at the intermediate stage, and fairly easy to perform to that level, Whilst I found Sleepy lagoon as EXTREMELY difficult to play to this standard. The above two tunes would seem to contradict that statement and I don't know why ? I suppose it depends on the player and the tune ! [This message was edited by basilh on 10 December 2006 at 02:47 AM.] |
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Howard Tate Member From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA |
posted 10 December 2006 07:21 AM
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All I know is, they are both the most gorgeous sounding instruments in the world. Non pedal is much harder for me to play any thing above the most basic tunes, I guess because I learned on psg. Bas, you always get such a beautiful tone out of whatever you play. ------------------ |
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Bill Creller Member From: Saginaw, Michigan, USA |
posted 10 December 2006 10:39 AM
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Hey Phil, glad to hear you are up'n at 'em again!! |
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c c johnson Member From: killeen,tx usa |
posted 10 December 2006 11:49 AM
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I play both + dobro and love em all. I tried standard guitar but the only thing I was able to learn was that open G on the 3rd fret so I quit. cc |
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Al Marcus Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA |
posted 10 December 2006 06:49 PM
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Gene-Good post and I liked your Christmas songs. "I know that peopple like Speedy West were useing pedals at this time but its not the way pedal steel is played today. It was more about style, and tone, it seems, back then, and now it seems to be " Nathan-Yes Speedy West had style , and tone and feeling in his playing. He did it with pedals or nonpedal. So it seems that the pedals didn't stop him from playing with good tone and feeling back in those days. So you may be right about that....al ------------------ [This message was edited by Al Marcus on 10 December 2006 at 06:55 PM.] |
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HowardR Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y. |
posted 10 December 2006 08:14 PM
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I STINK ON STEEL GUITAR!!! THERE, I SAID IT......... |
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Edward Meisse Member From: Santa Rosa, California, USA |
posted 10 December 2006 08:42 PM
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That CAN'T be true!  I'm not very good. But stink? Naw.  You can't be that bad.  [This message was edited by Edward Meisse on 10 December 2006 at 10:55 PM.] |
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Tracy Sheehan Member From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA |
posted 11 December 2006 01:44 AM
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For those who think non pedal is not real steel, try playimg sitting next to Reece Anderson ot Tommy Morrell to name a couple. |
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Don Kona Woods Member From: Vancouver, Washington, USA |
posted 11 December 2006 01:30 PM
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Howard says, quote: Howard, that's because you perspire too much when you are playing it. Just relax and this will stop your sweating, and everything will be OK. Aloha, [This message was edited by Don Kona Woods on 11 December 2006 at 06:33 PM.] |
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Gary Boyett Member From: Colorado |
posted 11 December 2006 02:24 PM
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Howard, Have you tried an air freshener? [This message was edited by Gary Boyett on 11 December 2006 at 02:29 PM.] |
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Marty Smith Member From: California, USA |
posted 11 December 2006 03:02 PM
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Just about every pedal steel player I've seen in the past few years have sounded about the same. And most of them you can hardly hear. I have never heard a non pedal steel player sound the same one to another, and 9 times out of 10 were at a nice volume that you can hear.The non pedal guys seem to do more solo's and beter stage apeal.Thats what I have seen lately.Its apples and oranges. Marty |
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Randy Cordle Member From: Illinois, USA |
posted 11 December 2006 07:39 PM
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“Why do we have this line of demarcation between us?” Gene, thanks for the question that begs self examination for our own reasoning. I find it very interesting to read the comments of folks from the two camps of steel guitar. The very nature of the question elicits the hackles going up as the challenge is issued to our basic leanings as steel players. It is also a testament to the nature of forum members that there are so few shots taken. That said, my interest focuses on lap steel. My primary reasons are due to the lap’s visceral nature. There is something quite appealing to me about an instrument that in simplest form is nothing more than tensioned strings played with a sliding bar. I really do subscribe to the different strokes for different folks philosophy, and have learned that as time marches on I may develop an interest with pedals, levers, and all those other terms that I have no idea of their meanings, nor care to at this time. Over the course of a lifetime one of the best things we hopefully develop is the ability to exercise acceptance for things that we ourselves do not fully embrace. In other words, I really don’t know with certainty that I won’t be playing Klezmer music on the Glockenspiel in the future, and I sure won’t throw any stones at folks that pedal for pleasure. So, “Why can’t we just all get along?” As far as the need for different topic areas, I’m also in agreement with a previous post that it allows us to quickly go to the area that interests us more as lap or non-pedal steel players. Following the forum for a while has definitely indicated to me that there is indeed different issues with the two types of instruments. |
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George Redmon Member From: |
posted 11 December 2006 10:13 PM
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I play pedal steel, and i attempt non pedal steel guitar. I also am sort of a rebel of steel guitar. I do not play that nasty commercial whinny sickning sweet whinny E9th stuff. I play C6th, it's what i prefer musically. That is why i enjoy the beautiful sounds of non pedal, and long to play that style as well. I have guys all the time tell me i am not playing what a steel guitar is suppose to play..i say respectfully ..STICK IT! i hate that nasty nashville crap. Now don't get me wrong, i know there are some beautiful E9th songs, i just have no desire to play that way..do you guys follow my reasoning? if i played a fender telecaster, it would not be the chicken pickin' type of guitar that is associated with that guitar..i sure hope i am making myself clear. But anyway, i love reeces lap steel work..just tops in my book. |
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Rick Collins Member From: Claremont , CA USA |
posted 12 December 2006 09:53 AM
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quote:Now you know how that funny smell got into its case.  Try this: |
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Ray Montee Member From: Portland, OR, USA |
posted 12 December 2006 10:34 AM
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GENE: THANK YOU! I had posted a topic on "what should we call it" about one year ago. I even begged Jeff Au Hoy to lend me his "bunker" for my survival. Sure is a lot of opinions out there; many valid; some factually questionable. I love to play one of my Ricks.....as it is so EASY to play! The slants all fit in so nicely and are true and accurate. If I happen to be at my Emmons or Bigsby and someone requests an olde Jerry Byrd type arrangement, I simply play it "without" using the pedals; or, throw one in if I want to, for the heck of it. The pedals are there as a musical option and not a way of life. I too, feel we're talking about one instrument, just ONE! For those of us that learned on a lap steel, stepping up to a pedal steel is a mere advancement. Not some kind of historical feat. Now you have them so they can be used as often or where ever. When I go to a steel jam tho', and listen to 20-30 pickers doing all of their Jeff Newman pickin' exercises over and over in each and every song, I DO FIND IT DIFFICULT to play much on the Rick, as my mind is automatically delving up pedal phrases or licks or whatever, just like what the olde ear heard prior to my turn to play. To me, that's the only handicap. I can play the SAME TUNE on either guitar, without any particular difficulty aside from string spacing. I will occasionally grab the wrong set of strings or whatever. KEEP up the good work GENE! |
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Rick Collins Member From: Claremont , CA USA |
posted 12 December 2006 11:00 AM
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I play steel guitar and I also play pedal steel guitar __ probably both at about equal playing skill level. Always, I play pedal steel, volume pedal to amp only __ and never use a volume pedal with the steel guitar. Steel guitar is more of a challenge; and I also derive more personal satisfaction from steel guitar than from pedal steel. |
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Nathan Hernandez Member From: Riverside, California, USA |
posted 12 December 2006 11:46 AM
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I think the recent (like 2 to 5 years)explosive intrest in the non pedal steel guitar instrament(the jump in the prices of these instraments is a partial indacater) music and players is a sign that the pedalsteel may have reached or peeked in its progression, or may be running to the end of its course. Now this is a loose statement because there is allways room for improvement (and Im a prime example of that). But it seems to me that players who have been playing for a couple of years are looking for more or a different insperation. I do see all steel players as playing the same instrament, pedals or not and love what they play. But sometimes,,, when you here non-pedal players talking about music its about the players and tone and technique and style,,, I heer pedal players talking about how to tune what pedals/levers/strings and cabnet drop and howd you make that sound. Once again this is a loose statement. I plan on going back to pedals some day,,, but not any day soon! |
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b0b Sysop From: Cloverdale, California, USA |
posted 12 December 2006 01:02 PM
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Gene Jones asks; quote:There isn't, at least not on this Forum. Discussions about steel guitarists (the musicians) should be posted in the "Steel Players" section. Discussions about the instruments should be posted in either "Pedal Steel" or "Steel Without Pedals". I have never, ever considered making separate sections for "Pedal Steel Players" and "Non-pedal Steel Players".. We are all steel guitarists. That's why there is one "Steel Players" section. There are two sections for the instruments because steel guitars can easily be divided into two categories - those with pedals and those without. Some people have an interest in one but not the other, so it is a convenience for them. ------------------ |
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Ron Randall Member From: Dallas, Texas, USA |
posted 12 December 2006 01:26 PM
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Thank you Gene Jones. (I still have your old T8 Custom Fender and love it) Wed night church, I play an 8 string Resonator. Thank you b0b. That explanation says it all. Me play Steel Guitar. |
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Ron Brennan Member From: Edison, New Jersey, USA |
posted 12 December 2006 01:44 PM
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Howard, You really gotta do something about your playing....Ummmm, move to Hawaii... Leave NYC Better yet, move out to the country...why yes, New Jersey!! Rgds, Ron ------------------ |
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Alan F. Brookes Member From: Brummy living in California, USA |
posted 12 December 2006 05:47 PM
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Nowadays I usually play non-pedal on the C6 neck of my pedal steel and just keep my feet off the pedals ! |
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Jeff Au Hoy Member From: Honolulu, Hawai'i |
posted 12 December 2006 11:21 PM
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There are issues associated with steel guitars that don't have pedals. There are issues associated with steel guitars that do have pedals. I don't get what the confusion is. |
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