I think classical music is both harder and much more interesting than country. For example, in the prologue to West Side Story, at one point there is a 7 note bass line played over 8 beats. You play it 1234 5671 / 2345 6712 / 3456 7123 / 4567 1234 etc. The result is that the downbeat falls on a different note every time, which changes the chord.

The Stravinsky piece I did on my first CD, much of the music is played simultaniously in the keys of F and B natural, with weird harmonies resulting from the interactions of the sounds of the 2 different keys. The first thing the steel plays in this piece is a simple mashing of the A and B pedals, but the bar is also moved up one fret when the pedals are down. Try it. You'll see how unsusual and mysterious it sounds.

On the piece I just finished, there is a section where the different orchestral instruments are playing the same notes, but in 2 different rhythms. It's sort of controlled chaos.In order to be able to record this, I had to program the click track with one click going at 16 beats per measure and the other one at 12, and record them on 2 different tracks and then play back each one seperately in order to play along with them.

This stuff is really challenging, and in my opinion, far more musically rewarding than playing country or rock.

Doing gigs is fun and there is something to be said for getting our in front of an audience and making the singer sound good, but for me at least, doing these recordings is far more fulfilling. I feel I've really accomplished something.

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 02 December 2002 at 09:42 AM.]

I think that Saint-Saens "The Swan"(Adagio) is one of the most elegantly simple, and most beautiful pieces of music ever written.

I do the same thing when I listen to Ellington. I try to figure out what the trombones are doing.

When I listen to symphonic music I try to understand how the instruments that have the same overtone relationships as the steel fit in to the orchestration. French horn, the double reeds, piccolo (just like steel harmonics !)and all that.

So much to hear... so little time.

I love the lush moving inner harmonies. I am sure that is what attracts me to pedal steel, and those who have mastered that aspect of playing. Arranging internal movements is so cool.

Steel lends itself to this because of all the voices (strings) available, and, well, I guess I could go on and on, but...then y'all already know all that!!

Plus there are the great Jazz players and composers as well... what a list!!

[This message was edited by Bill Fulbright on 02 December 2002 at 10:22 AM.]

The very first time I sat down at a pedal steel, I was listening to (and trying to emulate...with only a little luck) a hip quartal sounding string quartet by Keith Jarrett. That will forever stand out in my mind as a defining moment in my personal quest to explore all the possiblities of this thing. Of course after playing "All My Ex's" etc. over 10,000 times in the years following, I sorta forget.

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 02 December 2002 at 11:07 AM.]

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Click on the pic!

[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 04 December 2002 at 07:23 AM.]

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I think that Saint-Saens "The Swan"(Adagio) is one of the most elegantly simple, and most beautiful pieces of music ever written.

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I think besides tuning me in to counterpoint, different time signatures, and usage signatures, ( Con Moto, Mezzo Forte, Ad Libitum, etc), it allowed me to learn how to play with "feel". Aslo how, as with my brief time with Mr Charleton, to attack each individual note as if ones' life depended on it, and how to milk the longest possible sustain without a buzz or other glitch.

I got to meet and shake hands with Andres Segovia, Montoya, and a couple others. I might add that Mr Segovia's Hands were kind of like Paul Bunyan's. Huge. Now THERE's a picker that "Paid his Dues".

With me, I will be found listening to the Classical Stations, Jazz, and to the "Oldies Station" whenever they have a good Led Zeppelin or Jimi Hendrix Rock Block.

I've worked out Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, Bouret ( which has a tag similar to Nr Emmons' "At E's) and a couple other little ditties.

Doesn't seem like there' a lot of call for them in the Local Truck Stop or in the Critter Club Curcuit tho.

Gregorian chants
other 'early' music
Bach
Mozart
Beethoven string quartets and piano pieces
Schubert lieder
Debussey
Bartok

Some of my not so favorites are 19th century symphonic works, maybe because of over exposure. I'm not crazy about any of the 19th Century Russion composers, nor any of those virtuoso piano works (anything by Chopin or Rachmaninoff or their ilk). I don't know why. I can't listen to Copeland, maybe because of those years of bad movie and TV soundtrack Copeland ripoffs......

Hall, who plays a Bb 6 twelve string tuning (NOT a universal) recorded some absolutely amazing stuff. The whole LP was done live, with no overdubs. Unfortunately, some of it is out of tune, and Hall's intonation isn't always perfect. But on those selections where he is on, he is absolutely incredible. I think his version Chopin's Nocturne is one of the finest and most beautiful recordings ever made on a pedal steel guitar. Ever.

I llisten to Bach, Dvorak (I worked up a solo steel arr. of part of the 'Largo" from New World Symph) Beethoven (Fur Elise works great on steel) Barber...Brahms chamber music... classical guitar pieces.
I particularly like orchestral harp pieces some of which I have on CD.I may not know the names but I know what I like

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I'm a huge Steve Reich fan. I think that the impact of his minimalism is so profound in today's culture that we forget that it has classical roots.

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b0b, anyone who can understand the chord structure and theory behind pedal steel would have an easy time with most classical music theory. It's the same I, IV, V, with the VI minor, II minor, and the occassional II and III7 thrown in - only they call it tonic, subdominant, dominant, relative minor, etc. Any guitar player, and especially a steel player, uses more chord and theory knowledge while playing than anyone in a symphony orchestra, except the conductor and maybe a pianist. Classical musicians play the written notes, with little or no need for knowledge of the theory behind what they are playing (but of course professionals have learned theory in their training). Most classical musicians can't improvise diddly, unless they have gone outside their training to learn it on their own. Composers are different. They think in theory, and can know what progressions will sound like even before they are played.

My classical background definitely comes through on steel on ballads and the slow pretty stuff. On my own time I play a lot of classical stuff on pedal steel. It works great on the harmonic pretty stuff from the Baroque through the Classical periods; i.e., Bach, Vivaldi, Pacabel, and on through Mozart (heavenly), Beethoven (the ultimate profundity) and Brahms (boring rehash of Beethoven). The fairly standard major and minor chord progressions work well with the E9 tuning, although you really need an extended E9.

From Wagner (think Star Wars soundtrack), Tchaikovsky, Chopin, and Rachimaninoff (the most melancholy music ever) on it gets very complicated and difficult for steel. From Stravinsky on it is dang near impossible. I was amazed that Mike Perlowin started out with Stravinsky and the more modern composers. I love that stuff, and he did a great job. But the earlier, prettier stuff works so much easier and sounds so great on a pedal steel. You can play most of the themes straight out, without the need for overdubbing and piecework.

Bach hymns are fantastic on pedal steel (Oh Sacred Head Now Wounded, Now Thank We All Our God). If you play them solo you can get a really organ-like sound by skipping every other note of the chord; e.g. C,E, low G, for C chord with C on top. These pieces are slow and stately and will do wonders for your ear, tone and sustain.

The adagio middle movements of Mozart and Beethoven sonatas and concertos have some great themes for pedal steel. One of my favorites is the middle movement of Mozart's Clarinet Concerto in A (that's the piece Robert Redford played on the phonograph for the baboon in Out of Africa).

The biggest problem with playing classical music on steel is the inability to read music (I can read on piano and sax, but not on any kind of guitar). Country, rock and blues are built around short verses that repeat, with short bridges and turn-arounds thrown in. Most classical music consists of long passages with few repeats. Without being able to read, you have to pick out piece and memorize it at the same time. Which is near impossible for long passages. By the time you get to the end, you can't remember what you worked out back at the beginning. I guess it would help if you tabbed it as you went, but it would take forever - and can anyone actually sight read tab in real time on pedal steel?

Considering how much effort and time it takes to learn a single classical piece (Mike perlowin, are you independently wealthy - where'd you get so much time?), the only way I could see doing it would be to work up one piece at a time and record it before starting to learn the next piece. If I ever get one down good enough to record, I'm sure I could never duplicate it again live.

Here's and idea - maybe several of us who like classical music on steel could put together a pedal steel classical CD by contributing one or two cuts each. I don't think I could ever do a whole album by myself in this lifetime (Mike, you're superman).

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Mike perlowin, are you independently wealthy - where'd you get so much time?

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Independently poor would be closer to the truth. I have just enough income to cover my basic expenses, with very little left over. However, that income is automatic. I don't have to do anything to make it happen. So my real wealth is the freedom and time to do my recordings, which are incredibly labor intensive and time consuming. I usually spend 6 hours a day in the studio. Even with that kind of schedule, Firebird Suite took 7 years to complete, and West Side Story took 5.

Thinking of what you went through is what gives me the idea of several people contributing one or two cuts each. In 6 months or a year I could work up to playing a couple of short classical adaptations in real time. I've almost got one or two now, but if I drop them for awhile to do other things, when I get back to them after a few weeks, I almost have to start over from scratch relearning them. I don't have the taping and mixing skills to do what you do. The only way for me would be to work up a number, and then do single takes of it over and over until I got it right.

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anyone who can understand the chord structure and theory behind pedal steel would have an easy time with most classical music theory

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The fact is few, if any of us know calculus, but we all know our basic arithmatic. Music theory is like that. The more advanced aspects of it have little or no practical application to country music or the steel, but the basics of harmony definatley apply to the kinds of things most of us do.

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I have read that Bach's music went undiscovered for nearly a hundred years after his death. He was incredibly prolific, and often had a second job playing in bars (sound familiar?).

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My point is that before getting into formal music theory training, the basic E9 player is already a leg up on most classical music students (I'm talking about harmony and chord progressions, not about simply reading musical symbols). Except for the piano, classical musicians play strings and horns that play only single note melodies, harmony lines, and counterpoints. They don't need to know any theory. They simply learn to read the music well. You don't need to have a clue about what harmonies and counterpoints the other musicians in the orchestra are playing, you just play your part as written.

A young student, with practice, can learn to play, and even memorize, very complicated stuff, without knowing any of the theory. After 5 years of piano, when I was 13, I could read and play very complicated Bach, Mozart and Beethoven piano pieces, without using any theory or even knowing various scales and chord progressions from memory. It's all about reading. You can play in the key of C# without knowing the scales and chords in that key. The key signature tells you the sharps or flats to use, and you just play what is written. The composer knew all the theory and put it there for you.

At some point it does help to get some experience with the various scales and chord progressions in the various keys, especially when playing in odd keys. But, once you learn to read well, you can play anything simply by reading the music without knowing any theory.

If you play by ear instead of reading, then you need to know theory. An that's how all steelers play. They learn a lot of basic theory by necessity. The rest of theory is just more of the same. You've already got the concept of chord progressions and scales in an instinctual way that classical students who only play by reading do not have. They have great difficulty going from doing everything by reading to playing by ear.

One of the neat and unique things about steel is that once you have learned one key, you know them all. You learn to hit the chord strings and pick the scale and melodies at a particular fret. Then to play the same thing in any key, you just move the bar to a different fret. What you do with the strings, pedals and knees is the same at the new fret. No other instrument is like that (except electric keyboards that can now transpose to any key while you play like in the key of C). All other instruments, when you change keys, you have a completely different set of notes all the way up the scale. To play in different keys without reading music, you have to memorize the scales and chords for all 12 keys (or at least the several keys you are likely to have to play in).

To read classical music, you don't need to know much theory (although it does help, especially for sight reading in strange keys for the first time). But to play steel by ear, the way we all do, you have to learn a lot of basic theory, whether or not you realize it and give it all the technically correct terminology. I learned more theory the first week I played pedal steel, than in 5 years of piano, and 7 years of sax. For those instruments I can read, but only know chords and scales in two or three keys. On pedal steel, I can play basic chords and scales in any key, but I can't read a note.

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039300277 2/qid=1038972291/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6518578-3100128?v=glance&s=books

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Editorial Reviews

Ingram
The most celebrated book on counterpoint is Fux's great theoretical work GRADUS AD PARNASSUM. Since its appearance in 1725, it has been used by and has directly influenced the work of many of the great composers, including J.S. Bach, Haydn, and Beethoven. Originally written in Latin, this work has been translated in to the principal European languages. The present translation by Alfred Mann is the first faithful rendering in English, presenting the essence of Fux's teachings.

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Jeff,
Where the heck did you find out about the double harmonic major scale ? That is some obscure and barely functional information even for hard core classical composition students ! For those of you wondering it a sort of arab sounding scale that can be used over a (classical) neopolitan aug 6 chord or (jazz) altered dom 7 chord or for you guys that play E9 :

string
5  3 2   
6  3 2B  3B
7            
8    2L  3
9  3
10       3A

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Where the heck did you find out about the double harmonic major scale ? That is some obscure and barely functional information even for hard core classical composition students

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For those of you wondering it a sort of arab sounding scale that can be used over a (classical) neopolitan aug 6 chord or (jazz) altered dom 7

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Oh, and by the way, you are over-complicating your description of that chord in the center. The modern interpretation of that chord (which is what would interest steel players), it would very rarely be considered an aug6. That would cause more confusion than clarification amoung modern players applying theory. It is a C#7, which is a tri-tone substitution for the G7 chord which would resolve to the C chord. I'm not sure "where the heck" you are finding your theory information, but nothing that I've researched would call that chord an "altered" dominant. This is a technicality, but from the point of view of a G7, the C# note is "diminished" in nature and the numerous descriptions of an altered dominant that I have read require there to be at least one altered augmented note (#9 or b13).

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 December 2002 at 09:19 PM.]

Appreciate any tips!
Jimbeaux

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 03 December 2002 at 09:24 PM.]

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all classical music derives from simple folk music. It's still just the basics any E9 player knows, plus some other stuff.

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Likewise the piece I just finished has a section where the chords were based on stacking fourths together instead of thirds.

Earlier I used the analogy of calculus and arithmetic. That analogy apples here too. Folk music and country music and classical music of an earlier period of time all use simple triad based harmonies, 1, 4 and 5 chords, etc. The 20th century composers are LIGHT YEARS a head of this.

There is a book by composer Nickolas Slonimsky called the Thesaurus of Scales and Chords or something like that. When I tried to read it I was lost on page one. Slonimsky's concepts are that advanced. (BTW Slonimsky lived to be 101, and one of his students was Frank Zappa.)

I did an article in microtonal music for SGW and got exposed to musicians and composers who are working with scales of 19 and 31 notes to the octave. The late Ivor Derrig, who passed away shortly after I interviewed him, had a home made steel (no pedals) that was 6 feet long, with 20 strings, all tuned to low C for a massive chorus effect. That instrument has several sets of frets, painted in different colors. Each set was for a different microtonal scale including 19 notes to the octave, which seems to be a favorite among microtonal players. Derrig also had a Fender stringmaster, on which he also had painted different frets to mark microtonal scales.

Harry Partch, used a 43 note to the octave system. Partch first invented the 43 note system, then invented approximately 30 instruments capable of playing all these notes, and then wrote a bunch of compositions for them. Among the instruments Partch invented was a pedal steel guitar like instrument called a Surrogate Kithera, in which a glass rod similar to a steel bar was placed UNDER the strings and moved up and down along the neck, but where the player could also depress the string behind the bar, causing it to go sharp, almost the exact same way our pedals do. The Surrogate Kithera resembeled a modern steel guitar so much, it even had 2 necks

In terms of complex musical theory, The stuff these guys did and are doing is leaving us in the dust.

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 03 December 2002 at 11:17 PM.]

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They don't need to know any theory. They simply learn to read the music well. You don't need to have a clue about what harmonies and counterpoints the other musicians in the orchestra are playing, you just play your part
as written.

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Classical music theory covers the major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, double harmonic major and minor scales, all the modes of the scales (Dorian, Lydian, etc.), counterpoint, the theory of many kinds of cadences/resolutions (the IV-V-I being the most common, but there are a couple of dozen others I believe), and many other things.

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But all classical music derives from simple folk music.

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I'll work up a bio for my edumacation stuff at some point for you if you want

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edumacation

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Please leave your spelling teacher off the bio.