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 Ever been out of tune on a recording??? (Page 1)
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Bob Carlucci Member From: Candor, New York, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 08:57 AM
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Man I am!!... I was just listening to some old records[cassette tapes actually[ I have played on... yikes pretty frightening!! I seem to recall most of the "pitchy" stuff[parts of solos,intros etc] was on LOW buget sessions, where I did not get paid, and the "artist" had to look under the floor mat in his car for nickels to pay for the recording time. There was NO money for retakes and a lot of nasty stuff was left on, when it should have been burned with the rest of the trash.. I am beginning to think I stink, and that the out of tune stuff is the way I REALLY play!!!... PLEASE someone tell me that YOU have sounded out of tune on a "bottom feeder" studio date.... bob |
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richard burton Member From: Britain |
posted 23 April 2005 09:16 AM
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Your'e not alone, Bob. On one recording session, many years ago, I was getting to know the song, and playing along with it, noodling, seeing what fitted, for the recording proper. I hadn't even got my picks on. I hadn't tuned up yet, the steel was only just out of the case. Sure enough, after this first run-through, the producer said 'that's fine, that's just what we're looking for, adios amigo'. I can't listen to that recording, it's just terrible. R B |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 23 April 2005 09:22 AM
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What do you call "IN TUNE"? With the guitar that's never in tune? The singer that's never in tune? The piano that's tempored differently that you? Fiddle player "IN TU NE"? With your tuner that's different than what your ear want's to hear? Just exactly what do you call, "IN TUNE"??? Sort of an average somewhere in the middle? There is absolutly no such thing as being perfectly "in tune". And it's a good thing there isn't. Music sounds much sweeter and richer, much warmer and soulful, less plastic if not perfectly (close) to being in tune. Sure, "out of tune" can be over done, but so can being "in tune". Ever listen to the "Motown Sound"? Never even close to being in tune, ever! But sounded great, exciting, soulful, I loved it. Get you tuning close, then just count the money! $$$$$$$$$$$$$ Bobbe bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 23 April 2005 at 09:28 AM.] |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 23 April 2005 09:31 AM
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Out of tune? In relation to what??? |
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Eric West Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 09:37 AM
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I call them "Window Flippers", as in listen to them halfway home, and flip them out the window. In the winter they become Ice Scrapers™. Some of the ones where I was noticeably "in tune" got flipped out the window first. It is as Bobbe says, and why I've found that following ears around can really drive you nuts. Even your own. That's why I use a "Secret Tempered Tuning Chart" I got in a seance. Anybody that it sounds out of tune to, I figure just isn't sofistacated enuf to hear all the notes, like that east indian stuff. It hasn't missed yet. EJL |
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Les Anderson Member From: Rossland, BC, Canada |
posted 23 April 2005 09:47 AM
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A while back there was a thread in here about electronic tuners and how the cool dude musicians would never use one. Does this thread give an electronic tuner some credibility for some instances? In a bar or club gig setting, being in tune can be “close” and it will sound good. In a studio setting, there should be no second guessing. Either you are or you are not. Plain and simple. ------------------ |
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Bob Carlucci Member From: Candor, New York, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 09:54 AM
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Eric.. Don't do that to me.. I almost peed myself laughing ... Window flippers!!.. that was a beaut!... Well if anyone needs ice scrapers, I have BOX full. window flippers...Its a good thing we don't use vinyl any more!! bob |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 23 April 2005 10:32 AM
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Bob C., now you see why I'm an Eric West fan. How can anyone that nuts be that intelligent? Yea, window flippers! Love it! Les, there is no "in tune or not". bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 23 April 2005 at 10:34 AM.] |
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Bob Tuttle Member From: San Angelo, Tx, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 10:42 AM
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An old timer once told me that if the band is a little out of tune with each other,...."It sounds like there's more of us." |
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Jennings Ward Member From: Edgewater, Florida, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 10:49 AM
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IN TUNE?? WHAT IS THAT??? IMPODDSBILITY, THATS A FACT......YEARS AGO I ADOPTED THE ATTITUDE, PLAY OUT "OF TUNE" AND IT WILL SOUND LIKE THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE IN THE BAND.. CHET TAUGHT ME THAT TO MAKE ALL MY MISTAKES INTENTIONAL, INCLUDING TUNING.... BUDDY SAYS IF IT IS NOT PLEASING TO THE EAR, WELL, YOU CAN GUESS THE REST COMING FROM HIM.. I WILL NOT QUOTE HIM.. EVERYONE WOULD THINK I AM LYING, LAYING, PRONE, WHATEVER. JUST EAT A LOT OF POSSUM AND ENJOY LIFE.. JENNINGS........... ------------------ |
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Lee Warren Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 11:06 AM
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Can you tuna possum? |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 23 April 2005 11:17 AM
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No, but you can tuna fish............. Show me a player of any instrument that thinks he's perfectly in tune with a whole band, and I'll show you a guy that can't hear very well! And believe me, there are a lot of players that think they can hear that really are delusional about pitch. Show me a farmer in high heels and I'll show you a "dairy queen". (makes as much sense as arguing about tuning!) [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 23 April 2005 at 05:07 PM.] |
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Dave Mudgett Member From: Central Pennsylvania, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 11:17 AM
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Bob C., you're not alone. I agree, there's no 'exactly in tune' in practice, but sometimes it's not questionable, but flat-out 'not right'. Particularly, recordings of live gigs can be frightening. In the maelstrom of a loud live gig, the subtleties are lost on the bandstand, but the recorder don't lie. But I still like to hear this stuff - I can't ever get better until I hear and acknowledge the problems. |
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Lee Warren Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 11:23 AM
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Every session I've done has been so in tune, and the licks so original that I get paid 10 times scale ... THEN I wake up! =) LOL |
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Tony Prior Member From: Charlotte NC |
posted 23 April 2005 11:30 AM
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still am  t |
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Bob Carlucci Member From: Candor, New York, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 11:33 AM
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10 times scale!!!.. what kind of scale??? carp? crappie? pike? tuna? gefilte?  bob |
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Farris Currie Member From: Ona, Florida, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 11:52 AM
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Give me an E,then 12 beers,man what a sound! |
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David L. Donald Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand |
posted 23 April 2005 12:05 PM
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The question should be.. who HASN'T been out of tune in a recording. Being in tune on a recording is an The best music productions are a combination of wrongs [This message was edited by David L. Donald on 23 April 2005 at 03:39 PM.] |
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Robby Springfield Member From: Viola, AR, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 04:46 PM
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Bobbe S. "There is absolutly no such thing as being perfectly "in tune". And it's a good thing there isn't. Music sounds much sweeter and richer, much warmer and soulful, less plastic if not perfectly (close) to being in tune." You'll have to tell the rest of us where you're buying your drugs! |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 23 April 2005 04:58 PM
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Bobby Springfield, I bet you don't even know that E 9th Fretboards are temperd differently that C 6th fretboards, do you even know what musical temporing is? Do you know the difference between a musical mathamatical scale and a tempered scale? I bet you really play in tune. I'd love to check your guitar for you sometime, I guess you think you are "in tune" if the needle on your Korg indicates 440 on every note, huh? Why do you think Peterson tuners are set up to tune you "out of tune so you can be in tune". Bobby, let me see you add to this post by telling us all how you tune! How do you tune? To what? The singer? 440 to every thing? Bet your E to F lever really sounds great! Drugs? Don't need them, I have ears instead. What do you use? |
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Jennings Ward Member From: Edgewater, Florida, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 05:01 PM
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DAVID, YOU ARE STARTING TO GET THE HANG OF IT NOW......" ImPossumBility." WISH I HAD THOUGHT OF THAT....GOOOOOOOOODDDD..... WHO CARES IF YOU ARE IN TUNE IF YOU HAVE A BEAUTIFYLL CROSSEYED BLOND EYEING YOU...??? FERRIS, ONLY 12 ???? IS THAT THE FIRST HOUR??? LARRY THAT CACTUS JUICE IS WICKED..I STILL PREFER MY POSSUM,,,,,,,,JW ------------------ |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 23 April 2005 06:12 PM
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Imagine a big string or brass section being perfectly in tune. The violins would sound like one big loud violin, and not very warm or pretty. Why have a dozen horns in a band if they sound like one? Yes, kid all you want, but being slightly out of tune will sound like more. This is the object. More and prettier. There is a famous Nashville country group in which the steel player told me that their "band was always exactly in tune". I saw them live on TV one night and they were so far out of tune that the whole town thought it was hilarious. I confronted the steel player about it a few days later and his reply was, I couldn't have been out of tune, I have a LeGrande III with compensators. Some folks reasoning just can't be argued with. The steel was black too, so it had to sound good! All the instruments in the band should have been painted black. Yep, Black. This was like saying, well, never mind. There is a happy medium here folks, it can't be exact, nor should it be, but lets get it as close as we can! (To our ears) Come on guys, lets hear some thoughts on this very important subject, |
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Jonathan Gregg Member From: New York City |
posted 23 April 2005 06:36 PM
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The problem is that obviously at some point in tthe proceedings you thought you were in tune, whatever that means... and then when you hear these sourish tones coming back at you, you start to question your judgment... |
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Jonathan Gregg Member From: New York City |
posted 23 April 2005 06:37 PM
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btw, leave it to the man from Candor to raise this squeamish issue... |
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Robby Springfield Member From: Viola, AR, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 07:04 PM
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Bobby, first, my name is Robby instead of Bobby. What do I use to tune with? I can safely say that I don’t use excuses! Let’s see…tempered tuning, mathematical scales, and different tempered fret boards??? Topics like that weren’t around when I played on my first few hit records. Oh yes…they are still calling me for session work…and I don’t even mind the producers or the artists or driving across town or even the set up and tear down time. As a matter of fact, I am still grateful to be working after 38 years of playing steel and I didn’t even have to start another business to stay alive. Everyone knows, including me, that “perfect tuning” is quite the battle. Funny, I always thought that the fret board was just a guide to get you close and the rest was up to the player’s ear. You’re right; I had no idea that there was a mathematical solution to the tuning issue…I should have ask you! I’m sure you would have told me…or should I say, US! For the record, I tune one note on each neck with a tuner and tune the rest the old fashion way, by ear. And of course, my E to F is a little flat, but nothing that a little bar slat or a few other tricks won’t take care of. Don’t get me wrong, I still fight it like everyone else but I’ll be D___M if I’m gonna walk off from the record and say, well you know the singer was out of tune or the guitar player’s B string is always sharp on the 3rd fret…sounds like a losers limp to me! The whole point here is the guy that started the thread could use some encouragement from some of us…not a know-it-all chiming in with “it can’t be done”! I guess someone, maybe you, forgot to tell Buddy E. or Jimmy D, John H. or Paul F. that perfect tuning is impossible. They sound pretty good to most of us…but I’m sure none of us have the knowledge that you do. As for drugs…maybe you SHOULD try something to lighten up a bit. I was just kidding…KIND OF! But you seem to have taking it very personal. All I can say is…BRING IT ON! Or you could just forgive and forget and I could come over and take some lessons from you on this tempered, mathematical, fret board stuff before I lose all my gigs. Ta Ta |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 23 April 2005 07:35 PM
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Pretty good answers Bobby, I mean Robbie, sorry about the name. I guess you were kidding, you did admit that there is no such thing as being perfectly in tune. Drugs to lighten up? This is the second post you have refered to drugs. Whats with this? Now, how do you tune? You seem to have more fun attacking me than you do talking about how you tune "perfectly". Why don't you put the personal problems you have aside and tell us in depth how you get every note to be in tune with your "perfect" recording session. Do you temper tune by ear? Peterson tuner? How are your "F" notes in relation to the piano's? Do me a favor and leave drugs out of any posts that involve me and stick to the facts that will help other players, and possibly me, I'll listen with an open mind, I'm not assuming to "know it all". But I'd like to, if you and anyone else care to add something other than attacks. Teach me, this is how I learn, |
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Jim Phelps Member From: just out of Mexico City |
posted 23 April 2005 07:46 PM
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I agree with Bobbe, I'm always ready to learn, and I'll be the first to admit I have a lot to learn, especially from a real professional seasoned master session man. I've heard Bobbe on plenty of records, what have you played on that we've heard of, Robby? Yes, I know you've played with Frenchy Burke and a couple other big ones, but attacking Bobbe won't win you any friends here, and your drug references are way off base. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 24 April 2005 at 03:08 AM.] |
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Mike Headrick Member From: Jasper, TN, USA |
posted 23 April 2005 08:17 PM
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My thoughts: Being in tune and playing in tune are two different matters. I've recorded several top players over the years. I've heard others on demos they may have thought would never see the light of day. The best get a little pitchy here and there. It's the nature of the instrument pitted against the nature of the man. These great steel CDs you hear take time and patience. Sometimes there is magic on a first take, and sometimes there is frustration and compromise on a final take. Other times a player may leave a session thinking he nailed it, and then hear a "tuning" variance later that he didn't realize was there. So...I think I am correct in saying that none of us play "in tune" all the time, even the masters. |
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Robby Springfield Member From: Viola, AR, USA |
posted 25 April 2005 10:13 AM
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Hello Boobe, I mean Bobnoxious…it’s me again! Let’s get right to it shall we? Attacks? Let’s dial in on that just a moment…kind of like tuning up! You know how to do that don’t you? Allow me to quote you on your first reply to me… “Bobby Springfield, I bet you don't even know that E 9th Fretboards are temperd differently that C 6th fretboards”. Sounds just like an attack on my intelligence to me. By the way, I just copied and pasted your fine works here…have you ever heard of a word processor with spelling and grammar check? And one more quote from you… “Do you know the difference between a musical mathamatical scale and a tempered scale?” Why Bobnoxious, we barely know each other and your ASSuming so many things. Was that another attack on me or is that just your usual degrading M/O? Here we go again with another quote from you… “I bet you really play in tune.” Now that one really hurt, Bobnoxious!!! And just a couple more quotes from you to drive the point home… “I guess you think you are "in tune" if the needle on your Korg indicates 440 on every note, huh?” “Bet your E to F lever really sounds great!” And you said I just wanted to attack you????? Seems to me you drew first blood. You said “teach me”…well here goes with something that you really need to learn. STOP opening your mouth and sticking both of your feet in! Of course, I’ll be polite here and speak to Bobnoxious rather than Bobbe SeyLessHearMour. Have you gained any weight since you quit seeing Dr. Sn__ ? You see, most people I know that have overcome their drug habits don’t mind talking or joking about it…how about you? If this was just about me, I wouldn’t waste my time writing this C-Rap cause I could care less what you think of me or say about me. What bothers me is you talk that way to many people on the forum and I can only imagine what goes on behind closed doors in your own home. I have read some of your post on the forum and I think that there are a lot of people that would like to tell you where to get off but just couldn’t bring themselves to do it. Well, I have never been one to be that politically correct and I don’t need to buy anything from you. You also told me to stick to the facts so here goes: 1. Players CAN make a steel guitar and other instruments sound perfectly in tune! |
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Jon Jaffe Member From: Austin, Texas |
posted 25 April 2005 10:50 AM
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Wow! Dissonance that would make Bartok wince. |
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David L. Donald Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand |
posted 25 April 2005 11:06 AM
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Bartok could control his dissonance.... Look guys, this is a slagging match, and WAY off topic now... As for me.. neither wins.. you BOTH lose. Both have made valid points levened with BS. So either get back on topic, or call it a day... Bob C. asked a legit question... I think "relative tuning" is what works, Even the SAME song done in a different key in some ways. |
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Terry Edwards Member From: Layton, UT |
posted 25 April 2005 11:26 AM
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Come on guys. A little SGF etiquette is in order. You don't go attackin' a steel players tuning techniques!! A steel tuning technique is about all a man's got he can call his own! It's not about being in tune. It's about trying to tune this d@mn instrumnent. Everybody gets as A for effort. Now go have a beer, put on your favorite "out-of-tune-country-classic" and enjoy life. Sheeeesh!! Terry |
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Bob Carlucci Member From: Candor, New York, USA |
posted 25 April 2005 11:38 AM
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Geez.. you guys ever notice every time I post something its as though I whacked a hornets nest with stick at a backyard wedding and then ran away??.. Even when I'm trying to be good, murder and mayhem follow!!... Please calm down Bobbe and Robbie my good friends.. Its all good. Its just a discussion forum... I think we're all taking this a bit too seriously.... Bobbe, you've always tried to help me out,always very kind, and that fact is REALLY appreciated!! bob |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 25 April 2005 03:25 PM
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I could continue this "slug match" and may even find a small amout of fun in doing so, but I'm at a disadvantage because I don't have any knowledge of who I'm dealing with here. I have never heard of the person that is attacking me. He claims to be a big studio players of 38 years, however, of the thousands of players I know the world over, this is one that has slipped by. He made the statement that many people want me to shut up, keep quiet, and go away. It would be a lot cheaper and easier if I did. But as someone that always wanted to play better, know more about steel guitar and share knowledge, I have always hoped that everyone wanted what I did, and that was to learn from my fellow players and generally get the best info from as many places as possible. This is a steel guitar forum that is read by thousands of steel guitar fans and many great players. Everything that is written here should be for the purpose of ferthering the love and learning of steel guitar. Sure, humor doesn't hurt, and looking for long lost friends is a feature here, the great news on the events and announcments page, the for sale page is nice and a lot of fun for all. There can be the sharing what we all have learned over the years, this is a wonderful thing. HOWEVER, the personal bickering, fighting, arguing between two people, any two people, that don't even know each other, yes, I said don't even know each other, can be of very little value to anyone. It matters not who started what, who said what, or why it was said. The bottom line is, keep this forum positive for the masses, it needs to have intelligent value for the players that have the love of steel guitar and want to learn, get to know great people to share with and have fun and be positive. I can take my personal disagreements to email, telephone or the lawyers office, but I feel this great forum should be used for it's original purpose, and this isn't to do what is happening here. I would really like to hear from you players on this, what do you guys want to see this forum used for? Post it here or email me personally. Bobbe |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 25 April 2005 03:37 PM
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Richard Burton,Les Anderson, Jennings, David L. Donald, Jon Jaffe, Terry Edwards, Jim Phelps, Johnathan G., Dave Mudgett, and Lee, Thank you for offering your personal thoughts on this matter. Some good tuning advice and some good personal advice. This intelligent and considerate posting is very constructive for all. I will apoligise to all I have mentioned if I have offended any of you. NOW,,,,,,,,,, Lets get on with some positive tuning thoughts. Bobbe |
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Bill Brummett Member From: Greensburg, Pennsylvania, USA |
posted 25 April 2005 06:07 PM
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As a very old timer -- I go all the way back to starting out taking lessons from Shot Jackson in Shreveport, La. in 1949 -- I have always felt that so called perfect tuning never sounded quite right. I've always tuned an E string to whatever was handy and then did the rest by ear, regarless of the neck tuning I was doing. In reading and re-reading this thread, my take is that Robbie's first post started out AGREEING with Bobbe but somehow he got the impression that Bobbe believed in absolute "true tuning". And then --mind you, this is my impression and I may well be wrong -- that he threw in the "drug statement" as a joke. But it's easy to see how someone might be offended by something like that. And then it escalated. From what I've read here my interpretation is that both guys have the same general philosophy about absolute tuning and the other stuff went way off track without each party really hearing what the other was really saying. I think the forum should be a place where folks can disagree. Wouldn't be much of a forum if we couldn't. I can't think of another instrument which has so many different ways of getting the same note(s) and this guarantees us of many disagreements. But as long as the disagreements don't get personal, then that's healthy. |
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BobbeSeymour Member From: Hendersonville TN USA |
posted 25 April 2005 06:18 PM
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Bill, you may be correct, I hope so. Sometimes another point of view can be a little clearer. |
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Terry Edwards Member From: Layton, UT |
posted 25 April 2005 06:26 PM
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There was a young steeler from Tunisia Who suffered a case of amnesia His tuning quite sharp Tho’ he played from the heart The result would most certainly please ya |
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Ed Byerly Member From: Portage, Ohio, USA |
posted 25 April 2005 06:37 PM
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I think it's great that folks can give their honest opinion on these pages! I have to say that I have learned more than my fair share of knowledge from these pages and from Bobbe in particular. I would like to thank everyone that takes the time to participate!! I don't believe anyone really wants to slam anyone else---could be just some misunderstood humor. Anyways---lighten up, life is too short! Friends are too few. As far as tuning...just do the best you can for the listener's sake & then keep the bar positioned where it belongs... (I believe that's on the corner of Fourth & Main). I don't spend my whole break tuning, I just crank those little knobs until it's "Close enough for country". ------------------ Ed Byerly |
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Michael Garnett Member From: Fort Worth, TX |
posted 25 April 2005 07:16 PM
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So we took a thread asking an honest question and turned it into a battle of semantics. What is "in tune?" Is it what your ear tells you, or what the little plastic box tells you? I vote for the ears. Oh, and by the way, my dad's equal-tempered tuning can beat up your dad's just tuning. Who cares? Let the other guy play however he wants! Bob, to answer your question, and to try to get this thread back on subject, I have had some pretty interesting intonation issues, which I attribute to lack of experience, and having a studio mix with too much "Me" in it, which are both, interestingly enough, my own fault. I've found that if the steel is too loud in my earphones, it's hard for me to listen to the rest of the instruments, and accordingly, I play out of tune with the overall mix. I am usually flat, because I'm still used to looking at fret markers as a crutch. So far as the instrument itself being in tune, that's very important. No matter how good your ear is and your intonation with the bar, if your guitar isn't in "tune" with itself, it won't sound good. And therein lies the problem with our, and all other musical instruments about tuning. If you're out of tune a certain amount, it'll sound good. If you're in tune exactly, it won't. I tried tuning everything straight up 440, and gave it up after a day. It just sounded horrible to my ears. Then I did some research and found that Western music has been written and played in tempered tuning for the last 300 years. This is because music tends to change chords frequently. So, if you tune your guitar (or piano, or bass, or any other instrument) to 440 every time, you will only be playing "IN TUNE" for one key. For most of us, that's E and C. The further you get away from that key towards the tritone (opposite the tonic on the circle of fifths) the more out of tune you'll sound. I love music theory class, it makes me sound like a nerd. -MG P.S. - That's why I'm buying a Dingwall bass! Keep that B string sounding, baby! [This message was edited by Michael Garnett on 25 April 2005 at 07:27 PM.] |
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