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Author
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Topic: Question about cutting nut slots
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Charlie Fitzsimmons
Member From: Ledyard, Connecticutt, USA
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posted 28 October 2004 11:18 AM
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Thanks to your help, I have my figured out what size strings I'm going to use. Now I have to fill some of the slots that are cut into the nut, and re-cut them to proper size. I checked Stew Mac and they get about $12 for each file. That addds up to a bit of money for something I may use a few times. What do most of you guys do? Do you own files or bring it to someone to setup? I'm pretty mechanically inclined and I own some smaller files, is it possible to do a decent job without the exact size files for each string? |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 28 October 2004 11:40 AM
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Luthier tools are expensive for hobbyists, sure enough. How about a decent pair of calipers? Wow!As to the nut, files are best, or you can possibly be gentle with a coping saw. If it's for a dobro, Paul Beard sells pre-notched bone nuts, but you still need a saw and a belt sander to get a correct fit. Or a lot of elbow grease. ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
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Jack Anderson
Member From: Scarborough, ME
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posted 28 October 2004 11:54 AM
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I'm faced with a similar decision. I have more than one nut to cut, and certainly like excuses to acquire tools, but a really complete set of nut files would cost more than some of my favorite musical instruments! How do people with experience feel about using small triangular files? |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 28 October 2004 12:23 PM
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By far ... the best set/price I found ...Set of 8 ... $64 ------------------
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
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Jack Anderson
Member From: Scarborough, ME
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posted 28 October 2004 01:02 PM
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Those seem great if the only strings you use are .010", .013", .017", .024", .032", .036", .040" & .050." But, also, don't they file a round slot? There has been a lot of discussion suggesting that it's better for a string to sit in a V-shaped groove to minimize the contact between string and nut. Wouldn't one or more small -- for the highest strings, a very small -- triangular file actually be better in that respect? Granted, it probably would take more care, i.e. more trial and error, to get strings to the appropriate depth (which may be one reason why busy professional luthiers don't want to mess with them).[This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 28 October 2004 at 01:03 PM.] |
Jennings Ward
Member From: Edgewater, Florida, USA
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posted 28 October 2004 01:17 PM
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My remidy for nut files was to go to a good hardware store " ACE " and they can supply you with a lot of differnt tools..Jewelers also use those types of files... May have to special order, but if time is no problem go for it..... Also I make my own nuts from Cow leg bones...If you want to know how, e-mail me and i will tell you......Jennings
BEAUTIFULL ANGELIC SOUND OF STEEL......------------------
EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, + |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 28 October 2004 01:18 PM
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I read up alot before cutting the nuts on my Dustpans.And of course ... bugged Jason Lollar ... almost everyday about something. Unlike bone, corian, etc blanks ... I only had one good "shot at it" ... Everything I read and heard pointed away from V slots ... especially for wound strings . I cut with the 0.013 first ... then strung up all strings ... then cut with the file closest (smaller) to the string gauge . If it "ping-pinged" when bringing it to pitch ... I used the same file ... just kinda rolled it abit ... side to side. Jason said he had just two "special cutting tools" he used for everything he cuts ... but said I'd be wise to get the set. Just tryin' to help ... |
Jack Anderson
Member From: Scarborough, ME
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posted 28 October 2004 01:39 PM
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I certainly understand the need to avoid the "trial and error" approach on those Dustpans! Even with a few bucks in a piece of bone or Corian, you can always flip it over and start again. Guess you wouldn't want to be melting and recasting Dustpans too often.... I think you can have a problem with any shape of groove, esp. on wound strings, if you don't champfer the edges where the string enters and exits; and if the string sits right down at the bottom of the groove, I think you need to provide a bit of slope underneath the string on each side of the nut. These are probably things that the pros do with a few deft movements and not a lot of contemplation.... Another handy tool that would save a lot of time, but doesn't seem worth it if you don't use it a lot (and have a calculator) is a string spacing gauge. Being a scientist, I assume you calc'ed it out the hard way? Or did you maybe take the empirical high road and just copy the spacing from one of your original Ricks? There are sure plenty of people to vouch that whatever you did on those Pans sure works, Rick -- and I don't feel bad prying for your secrets, because whatever you spill, there just aren't ever going to be too many people able to tread where you have trod (trodden?)! |
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 28 October 2004 01:46 PM
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Although I now have four fret files that I tried to select to cover most bases, before that I had decent success with a small (hobbyist size) triangular file. To finish the groove I covered the file edge with some wet/dry sandpaper, holding it tightly with the file and carefully enlarged and rounded out the groove a little. Not elegant but it did an ok job. |
Loni Specter
Member From: West Hills, CA, USA
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posted 28 October 2004 01:51 PM
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I always finish off slots specialy the wound string slots by taking a used string of the same or one size larger, and dragging it through the slot with a saw like motion a few times. It gets rid of the edges just enough to avoid hanging up. |
Rick Aiello
Member From: Berryville, VA USA
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posted 28 October 2004 02:34 PM
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quote:
I assume you calc'ed it out the hard way? Or did you maybe take the empirical high road and just copy the spacing from one of your original Ricks?
Well .. since you asked  I asked each buyer to send me their string gauges and tuning. I determined the safe distance that my nuts would support ... watch it Howard And divided that by five for the 6 stringers ... and six for the 7 stringer. That gave me my Basic String Space (BSS). Then to compensate for string diameters ... I determined the Actual String Space (ASS) ... using
ASS = BSS + (radius of string A + radius of string B)
For the treble strings ... my ASS was real close to my BSS ... But as I got more bassy ... my ASS was much wider than my BSS. I had to do a few "trial and error" calculations ... because my ASS kept extendin' past my nut.  Then I went to my DeltaCad program (another Lollar recommendation) ... and made paper patterns (templates). Sorry you asked ???? ... 
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My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 28 October 2004 at 03:07 PM.]
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Jack Anderson
Member From: Scarborough, ME
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posted 28 October 2004 04:34 PM
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I'm not sorry I asked, but when HowardR gets a look at this thread, you're going to be sorry you told![This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 28 October 2004 at 04:34 PM.] |
Mark Vinbury
Member From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
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posted 28 October 2004 07:31 PM
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I'm with Loni on this.I use brass for the nut on my lap steels and take an old string of the same gauge and rub it or tap it in with a small hammer.This is an exageration of what is happening while you're tuning anyway.A lot depends on whether the strings pull straight from bridge to tuners(need less or no slot) or do they angle off above the nut and need deeper slots to stay in line. [This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 28 October 2004 at 07:49 PM.] |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 28 October 2004 10:35 PM
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I've never used anything but a round rat-tail file. Shot Jackson gave me (2) many years ago. He told me at the time that they were very hard to find, but; are available. I measured them and their thickness varies from .085 down to approx. .025 > They are only 4” long and of course rather brittle and need to be handled with care! The main idea is to roll the file over the sharp-edge of the nut in a downward motion toward the tuning-head, keeping the sharp edge over the nut on the fretboard side. Then when all the strings remain in those slots, their heigth can gradually be lowered by the same process starting on the lightest-string. That way you have your choice. Do you want the top-surface or the bottom surface of the strings level. If you want the top-surface level then each groove will be deeper as you work your way towards the heavier-strings. The rat-tail file always worked well for me, if you can find a source. It's probably the tinyest rat-tail made!------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
(2)-Fender ’49–’50 T–8 Customs
Fender ’65 Reissue Twin-Reverb Custom™ 15”
click hereclick hereclick hereclick here
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Mike Fried
Member From: Nashville, TN, USA
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posted 29 October 2004 09:06 PM
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Stew-Mac sells a brilliant string spacing rule that compensates for string diameter and can be used for virtually any stringed instrument nut - I've used mine to layout nut slots for 6, 7, and 8 strings. It's flexible for curved nuts and looks like a large machinist's rule. It costs less than $20 if I remember right. Sorry I don't have the part number handy, but it should be easy to find on their website. |
oj hicks
Member From: Birmingham, Alabama, USA
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posted 30 October 2004 08:02 AM
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How does the string spacing relate to a three-string bar slant over two frets? For example, frets 3,4,and 5 on strings 3,2,and 1 respectively. I understand the fret spacing is based on a logrythmic scale. Is there a problem with tonality of the middle string on a three-string slant even though the string spacing remains constant?Just curious. oj hicks |
Denny Turner
Member From: Northshore Oahu, Hawaii USA
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posted 30 October 2004 05:19 PM
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OJ,Here's an SGF discussion thread about the geometry of bar slants upon different string spacings. I posted a link there to plot charts I made trying to calculate and answer the very question you have asked here. Here's a link to the plots chart. Aloha,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 30 October 2004 at 05:29 PM.] |
oj hicks
Member From: Birmingham, Alabama, USA
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posted 30 October 2004 09:15 PM
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Hi, Denny...and WOW! Thanks for the reference to the thread and your charts. You obviously spent a lot of time crunching the numbers...must be an engineer, scientist, or mathmetician. I see my friend, Rick Aiello, also made a great contribution...but tell me something that he can't contribute to. Some one in the thread mentioned the design of fretboards on straight guitars (Spanish). I heard somewhere once (or maybe read it) that a world class luthier will try to design the fret board as a small segment of the frustrum of a cone. That is not the case for classical guitars as they are flat as a pancake...but I do note on high quality Spanish guitars the fret board has a slight curvature to it, if one looks at it in cross section. Well...I'm wondering away from the thread...but thanks again for the info. The charts are fascinating. oj hicks |
Denny Turner
Member From: Northshore Oahu, Hawaii USA
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posted 03 November 2004 05:26 AM
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Scientist???? About the closest I ever got to science was shade-tree wrenchin' and monkey doctorin'! But I can do long-division ...and my face is a frustratum of a cone if that qualifies! 
Steelin' for Twinkies and taco sauce... A-low-ha frum Hiwarrior,
DT~~~~~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 05 November 2004 at 10:52 AM.] |
Denny Turner
Member From: Northshore Oahu, Hawaii USA
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posted 03 November 2004 06:17 AM
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I have been wondering if modeling hobby shops might have some good deals on thin saws from China; But haven't had an opportunity to go check.I have often used a metal straight edge clamped to the fretboard side of a nut blank as a string-slots-depth stop-fence to easily keep the string slot depths as desired and even, and keep a nice perpendicular angle between the slots floor and the nut face on the fretboard side of the nut. Feeler gauge blades work good as a fence. Guitar strings or feeler gauges make good nut slot gauges. If a person has more time than money, ...or in a pinch; Feeler gauge blades can also be made into different sized archaic slot files by either roughing up the edge of the blade, ...or by epoxying hard sand blasting medium ("sand") along one edge of the blade ...and even along it's edge's sides to provide a depth of filing surface. Use overnight drying-time epoxy, not quick drying stuff. When epoxying, the blade will have to be prep'ed by scratching up the surface to be epoxied with sandpaper and soaked in acetone to thoroughly remove oil from the blade. Apply a thin coat of epoxy first ... a round toothpick works good as an applicator to work the epoxy onto the blade surface for thorough contact. Then POUR the "sand" onto the epoxy ....which will keep from stirring up epoxy into the dry cutting surface of the "sand". The thicker the epoxy coat, the thicker the sand will attach. Clamp the piece into a clothspin, working-edge down, to hold it for drying in sunlight for at least 12 hours. Sand blasting sand can also be similarly epoxied onto a guitar string to make a wire saw, or the guitar string wire saw blade can be made to cinch up in a coping saw or hacksaw handle. Common cheap knife blades can also be filed / tapered into thin working blades / edges that can be roughed up for use as an archaic fine / thin file. I also recently bought 8 "stay sharp serrated blade" knives at Wallyworld for my kitchen ...for $1.89... that I'm sure would work a nut in a pinch with a bit of thinning / tapering for the small string slots, with the edge already serrated. Any port in a storm!.............. Aloha,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 03 November 2004 at 06:28 AM.] |
Gene Jones
Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 03 November 2004 06:24 AM
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I still haven't figured out how they determined the height of that tree in my geometry class by measuring it's shadow!  www.genejones.com |
Mark Vinbury
Member From: N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
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posted 03 November 2004 08:20 AM
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I can see some attention being paid to string spacing at the nut,but,trying to regulate the depth to thousanths seems like a waste.Correct me if I'm wrong,but as soon as you rest your hand and a steel bar on the strings(which is most of the time) a thousanth or 2 of height differential at the nut will be negated.
[This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 03 November 2004 at 08:33 AM.] [This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 04 November 2004 at 05:10 AM.] |
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