I came across this gem related to pitch and relative tuning
http://www.uk-piano.org/history/pitch.html

Presumably Sam and his group tuned to the pianos in whatever studio they used. I can't believe he tuned DOWN for effect, the string tension NEEDED to be high in pre-electric days !!
So, Why are 14 tracks on the CD in the wrong pitch in relation to the key they're played by Sam on his guitar ?

Click here to see the CD Sam Ku West

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Steel players do it without fretting

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[This message was edited by basilh on 23 December 2005 at 05:19 PM.]

The Booklet contains a very well written story by Les Cooke and the comments by John Marsden are a mirror of what I myself think of Les’ stirring work, however, I find the inaccuracies in the preface by Bob Brozman to be a little self indulgent, he takes it upon himself to declare that the golden era of acoustic Hawaiian guitar to be specifically 1915-1934 and continues with the “Gold” theme as he describes the “Top Tricone players and recording artists of the time” as being the ‘Golden Seven’. Stating the tricone era as being (1928-1934)
Bob doesn’t differentiate between Sam Ku West’s 1927 and 1928 recordings and say which were and were not played on a ‘Tricone’. His comparison of Sam and Sol’s “Jazz” playing is rather strange, as what they played was “Swing”.

Until I heard this CD I was under the impression that certain “Signature Tricks and Licks” on the acoustic Hawaiian Guitar were the SOLE invention of Sol Ho’opi’i. How could I have got it so wrong?. Well in fairness, only a select few have had access to the knowledge of Sam Ku West’s recordings. That He (Sam) and Sol (Ho’opi’i) grew up in the same school of playing and influences is obvious, what is not quite so certain is who influenced who (If any).
After careful analysis of the PROFICIENCY of the “tricks and Licks” in question, I am drawn to the conclusion that indeed Sam was the dominant influence over Sol. Whilst there is NO question about Sol’s originality and dexterity on the Electric Hawaiian Guitar, his playing of the Acoustic instrument, whilst brilliant, is just a fraction less spectacular and inventive than Sam’s.

Its an interesting fact that the recording technique in use on Sam's tracks was not only from different engineers and studios, but retained much more artist’s control over the microphone placements. Yes I did use the plural, as I’m of the belief that there was “Multiple Mike Technique” involved in these recordings. Using a FFT analysis and checking out the room reverberation/delay times, it’s obvious that there was a separate mike for the Hawaiian Guitar. The Frequency response of the mikes in use is similar, but the amount of distance to the source is also similar with both the rhythm section and the lead instrument, and even ‘though the studios changed throughout his recording career, the relative mix and placement of mikes remained similar. (On the record labels it says "Electrically recorded")
It’s also obvious from some of the pictures that Sam Ku West had quite an unusual guitar, with “In Line” machine heads ‘a la’ Bigsby and Fender Telecaster of the late ‘40s. But wait, this was 1927-28..Kind of dispels the myth that either Leo or Paul invented the “In-Line” tuners and that “Peg-Head” design.

The tuning of the tracks hasn’t been addressed very well (On the 11th of June 1925 the American Music Industry adopted A440 as ‘Standard’, by 1927 the pianos in most professional studios would have been tuned thus) no self respecting guitarist would NOT tune up before a recording session, and Sam would for sure as he also played concert harp and was well aware of concert pitch, so, some of the records were obviously recorded at an incorrect speed (Fast) and although the playback would be at pitch in the studio, that would only be on the machine they were recorded on. This is apparent in some of the keys appearing to be Eb when in fact they were played in E. Consequently the tempos of those tracks are too slow.
No way did players tune low for effect, in the pre amplification days they kept their strings as tight as possible to gain volume and TONE.

There are 14 tunes at the wrong pitch..Starting with the very first track it’s obvious that there are open strings in use and the tuning is A Major, but the track plays in Ab. Track four (Farewell Blues) is played in A and track 13 (Farewell Blues) is also PLAYED in A Major BUT the transcription plays as Ab. All of this should have been corrected by the engineer processing the tracks for the CD, under instruction from the producer. (Who being a guitarist himself, SHOULD have noticed this discrepancy)
The tracks that are a semitone too low are :- 1-3-5-8-9-10-12-13-14-15-16-17-24-26. the rest are correct..

As for the actual tracks themselves, I can’t fault the playing as it is of “Landmark” proportions, personal favourites being, Hawaiian Hula Blues (Nice open string tricks), Happy Heinie March (Smart open string use) Moani Ke Ala, Sunkist Hawaii , Palolo Hula (which has some VERY clever behind the bar pulls as well as VERY accurate forward and back split slants). I make no bones about my dislike of what has become of the acoustic Hawaiian guitar...erstwhile players would do well to attempt to emulate the tone and feel of the playing on this compilation, you can buy Tricones Weissenborns or whatever, I think it’s the “driver not the ‘bus,” that gets you there.
Without a doubt ‘in my opinion’ a definitive album of “Pre Electric” Hawaiian Guitar, and a MUST for any Hawaiian Guitar player or aficionado. Basil Henriques

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Steel players do it without fretting

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[This message was edited by basilh on 23 December 2005 at 06:21 PM.]

"Stacy Phillips gave us much needed technical help determining the keys some tunes were played in ,enabling Graham to correct the speed of the original 78rpm issues".

BTW your link should be to here:-
http://www.grassskirt.co.uk/16307.html

This is where it went wrong. also quoted from the Grass Skirt site ..

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Malcolm Rockwell,Dave Stewart,Arthur Layfield and John Marsden kindly made transfers from their rare original recordings for us to use

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In the right key

The main folder

Regarding the standard of A=440: i have not heard the recordings in question, but if there is no piano on the recording, Sam Ku West would have had no reason to tune to a piano. Many string bands would simply tune to each other until it sounded right.

[This message was edited by Dan Sawyer on 24 December 2005 at 06:30 PM.]

You accuse Bob Brozman of self-indulgence, but this statement seems similar. It is very hard to know exactly what players were thinking in those days. Yes, they wanted volume, but there were also performances in parlors and homes where musicians had to really play softly and use things like mutes. You mention behind the bar pulls which are much easier when tuning down, especially when you consider the very heavy strings which were used in the old days. It's also quite possible that an acoustic steel player would have tuned lower than usual when he was playing by himself so as to get more bass. Or when accompanying a singer and wanted to use open strings in the singer's key.

And, bear in mind that Sam Ku West was also a concert harp player.. I'm sure he was very aware of concert pitch..You say you haven't heard the recordings in question..The links to examples are immediately above..And here again..
Track16 Hawaiian Hula

In the right key

The main folder

1925 On the 11th of June the American music industry adopted A440 as standard ., now don't tell me that any self respecting recording studio of the day WOULDN'T take advantage of that as a publicity stunt and advertise THEIR pianos as conforming to the very latest of conventions..
..and as I said Sam was a concert harpist , he and the guitarist would have tuned to the piano at every opportunity during the recordings, don't you think ?

Click on this link for confirmation of the date of adoption of the standard.. http://www.uk-piano.org/history/pitch.html

[This message was edited by basilh on 24 December 2005 at 07:17 PM.]

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Steel players do it without fretting

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The odd numbers are the ORIGINAL CD tracks and the NEXT even number is the corrected one.

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I just placed my order for the CD as well. When I originally skimmed through Basil's post and clicked on the index page I thought he had ALL of the tracks from the CD there - I didn't realize they were 30 second clips.

So that's why I wrote "Never mind", said (insert embarrassed smiley face here). I left my comment in there because Mike commented on my comment.

Basil, sorry I didn't listen to your clips all the way through (I listened to about 10 seconds of the first two clips) - I'm waiting for the CD. To be honest, the fact that some of the songs might be a semitone off doesn't bother me much - I'm just looking forward to hearing all of these songs!

[This message was edited by John Bushouse on 26 December 2005 at 09:09 PM.]

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I make no bones about my dislike of what has become of the acoustic Hawaiian guitar...erstwhile players would do well to attempt to emulate the tone and feel of the playing on this compilation, you can buy Tricones Weissenborns or whatever, I think it’s the “driver not the ‘bus,” that gets you there.

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Basil,

I'm not trying to open another can of worms (like I unintentionally did above), but could you elaborate a little bit? Is it the move away from Hawaiian music played acoustically, or something else?