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Author
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Topic: Carter Starter vs Sho Bud maverick
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Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 17 May 2002 09:12 AM
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Yesterday I gave a lesson to a newbie with a Maverick. It has been years since I touched one, and I forgot just how awful they are. I think they should all be rounded up and burned. It made me appreciate the Carter Starter that much more. Aside from the fact that it has 4 knee levers, the overall quality is so much better.... John and Ann have done a real service to the entire steel guitar community by making the first decent student guitars. I hope they sell a million of them. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 17 May 2002 09:48 AM
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The Sho-Bud Maverick was a very limited instrument. The Carter Starter, on the other hand, has everything you need to work you way through all of the instructional material that is available for the E9th tuning.
If you try to learn to play on a Maverick, you'll quickly run into changes in the tab that you don't have on your instrument. I can only imagine the frustrations of beginning players who start with only 1 knee lever, and discover that even the basic beginner courses require 2 or 3.
I enjoy playing my Maverick (2 pedals, 1 lever) in the same way that I enjoy playing lap steel. The limitations are challenging, and I enjoy a good musical challenge. Beginners have enough of a challenge just learning to play. They don't need the additional burdon of working around things in the tab that aren't available on their instrument.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 17 May 2002 09:54 AM
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Do keep in mind though that the Maverick brought many of us into the pedal steel world back in the 70's. It had it's place and it's a good thing it was there or maybe many of us would not be...But certainly by today's standards the Maverick as well as the Emmons and MSA student guitars from that time period are limited as compared to the 4 knee lever Carter Starter.
tp |
Roy Thomson
Member From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
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posted 17 May 2002 10:37 AM
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The Maverick is the worst steel guitar I ever
played in my life...bar none.
Our local Steel Guitar Club has one here for
new prospective students to try for a month.
I think that is a mistake. It's terrible!
It tends to discourage more than encourage.
It would be a bad day indeed if I saw one of those things coming through my door.
No way! |
Tommy M
Member From: Indiana
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posted 17 May 2002 11:16 AM
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I agree with Tony. A Maverick was the first pedal steel that I, and obviously several hundred other people, owned. I recall advancing to pedal steels with more knees, pedals, and necks. It was a matter, as it is today, of wanting to do something and knowing there are financial limits as to what you can afford. Sure, a lot of these Mavericks on eBay go for the same price or more than a Carter Starter cost. Two reasons: the people buying them aren't aware that a better steel can be bought for a comparable amount of money, and they are being bought because they do have a place in Pedal Steel Guitar History. Remember "all" you didn't know when you started? I still have a soft spot in my heart for my "first".  ------------------
Tommy Minniear
www.ntsga.com |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 17 May 2002 11:24 AM
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Mavericks are real hunks of junk in my experience. The crapmetal they used is brittle and weak. I had students unfortunate enough to own one of these that broke changer fingers because they pushed down a pedal. The levers snap off also with very little effort.On the other hand the Carter Starter works very well and sounds surprisingly good. Out of about 25 of them that I have checked out with new players only one had a small problem and the guys at Carter fixed it right away and at there expense. If you have a Maverick I suggest dumping it on some collector fool on Ebay while you still can. Bob BTW:
Tommy M,
I also have a soft spot in my heart for one of my firsts. But if I knew then what I know now I would have run screaming the first time she smiled at me [This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 17 May 2002 at 11:29 AM.] |
Roy Thomson
Member From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
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posted 17 May 2002 11:25 AM
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I started with 6 string acoustic "Stella" tuned "A" low bass and if I had my choice to-day I'd still take it over a Maverick.Two or three Mavericks for that matter.
Newcomers.. stay away from Mavericks.
They are well named.  [This message was edited by Roy Thomson on 17 May 2002 at 11:25 AM.] |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 17 May 2002 12:04 PM
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Say what you wish about the Maverick but while working for Lynn Anderson in the seventys I got very tired of carrying my 96 pound MSA through airports, taxies,small planes all over the world. So I went down to Sho-Bud and paid $200.00 for a used mavrick.
I worked with Lynn part time for over three years on this guitar, made over $100.000 then sold the little Maverick for $300.00, Do I like mavericks? For the correct perpose, YES! I think the tone is fine,On the early model birdseye, raised neck model. Even used it on a couple of major albums in the '70's, Like it? Naw, but it was the best guitar for the job at the time. I would still prefer it to any thing in or near the price range. But then, tone doesn't matter to most folks. By the way, the steel player that replaced my with Lynn,(Doyle Grissom)also used a late model Maverick for over six years, on the road with her. You Maverick bashers need to back up and try to understand that a good Maverick guitar in good playing condition will make you a lot of money dependably, and sound fine in the process.Don't buy one off e-bay and you won't get hurt for a good one. Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 May 2002 at 12:10 PM.] |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 17 May 2002 12:05 PM
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I think Mav's sometimes sell high on Ebay because people know the Sho-Bud name. They don't know the difference between a Mav and a Pro Model. About a year ago, a well know rock guitarist, who own a small local studio asked me to come by and setup a Steel that he just got. This guy deals in lots of vintage guitars, but knows nothing about Steels. I was disappointed to see his new Steel was a Maverick. I set it up and played it a bit.
I was also taken by how poor the quality was. I tried to gently explain this. The owner said it's just for "different sounds" in his studio. I advised that any serious Steeler would bring their own anyway. He asked what I thought it was worth. I related it terms I knew would understand. I said, "It's comparable to a Squire Strat." He was shocked and showed me his reciept.
He got it at a pawn shop, even trade for a Squire Strat!
[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 17 May 2002 at 12:08 PM.] |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 17 May 2002 12:23 PM
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I also feel some folks are confusing "poor quality with simplicity". The Maverick is extremly simple, but treated with care, a very usable musical instrument.
We sold seven at Christmas time two years ago for $299.00 each and gave the buyers the opportunity to get all their money back when they decide to trade up. I don't see anyone doing this with it's compitition. Speaking of quality, inexpensive and simple,my vote would be for the GFI mini pro model. A true winner that is being used professionally more and more everyday.
Bobbe.
[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 May 2002 at 12:39 PM.] |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
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posted 17 May 2002 12:37 PM
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What's wrong with a Squier strat? |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 17 May 2002 12:40 PM
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Not enough pedals. |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 17 May 2002 12:44 PM
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Nothin's wrong with a Squire Strat.
Here's mine..It ain't no Les Paul or Tele.
It is what it is. Like Popeye!
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patrick donovan
Member From: orange, texas, usa
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posted 17 May 2002 12:51 PM
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Everyone should own a "Maverick"...once. It will make you really appreciate a real steel. I started on a Fender 400..the Maverick was a step up, it had a knee lever..w0w. Bobbe you would sound good playing a cigar box with strings acrossed it, some of us (me) don't have that kind of talent and need all the help (a good guitar) that we can get. Mavericks definitely have (had) a place but "it ain't at my house", the Carter Starter is by far the superior instrument. Regards, Patrick |
Michael Holland
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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posted 17 May 2002 01:10 PM
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quote:
paid $200.00 for a used maverick ........ made over $100,000
I think I've spent 100 grand and made about $200! |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 17 May 2002 01:41 PM
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It's not a fair comparison, apples and oranges here. late 60's technology and requirements vs a modern available Instrument. Keep in mind a majority of the earliest Sho-Buds had one maybe two knee levers. Some things hadn't evolved yet...Then when they did evolve so did the next generation low end STARTER guitars. This doesn't mean that I think that students should run out and get a Maverick, I think they should not ! My opinion is that anyone starting to learn how to play a Pedal Steel is wasting the cash and time if it is not at least a 3+4 guitar.
tp
tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 17 May 2002 at 01:50 PM.] |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 17 May 2002 02:26 PM
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There should be a National Maverick Bonfire held once a year so we could rid the world of these planks. I hear they burn realllll good! |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 17 May 2002 02:36 PM
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You don't sell Carter-Starters, do you Bobbe? 
Like you, I can play a Maverick and make it sound good. Mine's an early raised-neck birdseye model, like yours, and I added a roller nut. I'm not saying that they're not usuable instruments. I'm saying that they aren't good to learn on. Today's lessons assume at least 3 knee levers.------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
CrowBear Schmitt
Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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posted 17 May 2002 02:48 PM
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i started out on a Mav' too. (it was'nt the raised neck model) it was a cheezy axe but it got me started. i sure do prefer the Bud i got now. i'm sure the starter models bein' made nowadays are quite a step up compared to the Mavs.
Steel waitin' to be invited to the weenie roast... |
Kurt Graber
Member From: Wichita, KS, USA
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posted 17 May 2002 03:00 PM
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Bought a maverick in '82', mastered the Hal Rugg- Weldon Lick with this thing. The tone was pretty good, and I have been hooked on steel ever since. I sold it for what I paid for it probably in '85' some time, and upgraded. Best money I ever spent ( I was 17 at the time and I think it was all the money I had). Laugh if you want, but there is a lot of steel that comes out of 3 pedals and one knee. I invested a lot of enjoyable hours on this thing, and I never remember any tuning problems or string breakage that was out of the ordinary. |
Chuck McGill
Member From: Jackson, Tn
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posted 17 May 2002 03:34 PM
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If not for the trusty ole Maverick I would
never have started playing steel. So I am with the Bobster
on his post. Nothing against the Carter. I've found them to be very good instruments
but that first starter steel I learned to play on and played my first gigs with will
allways be the one I remember.The Maverick!
Affordable to everyone. |
Ray Rasmussen
Member From: Santa Rosa, CA,
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posted 17 May 2002 04:58 PM
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Since we're on the subject... I have a Sho-Bud S10 with 3 pedals and 1 knee that has a raised neck, birdseye maple finish, roller nut, and is double raise double lower. It does not say "Maverick" or "Pro 1" on it. Any ideas what this could be? Did Sho-Bud make a model between the two? |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 17 May 2002 05:03 PM
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Confucius say..."Only the most foolish hitch-hiker would berate the tattered vehicle that might give him a ride" (Or maybe that was Charlie Chan?) Anyway, as a kid, many a' night I'd go to bed...and wish I had something as good as a Maverick![This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 17 May 2002 at 05:04 PM.] |
erik
Member From:
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posted 17 May 2002 05:23 PM
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I looked into getting a steel a few years back. I found that the GFI student model was available in the Day setup. That would make it a more versatile choice. |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 17 May 2002 07:10 PM
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Erik, Yessir! A few (very few) dollars more will get you a LOT better guitar(GFI). Bobby Lee, sell the Carter Starter? Haven't even seen one, however I'm sure they are just as fine quality as anything this company makes. All the regular music stores sell them in Nashville, We cater to a different market.
I just don't understand all this Mavrick bashing,Sho-Bud did not build this guitar themselves but contracted it out to a cabinet manufacturing company in Conway Ar.
Sho-Bud did this to make it possible for the less fortunate to be at least, able to get a steel guitar and get started. I bless them for that.The people that say it was "worse than nothing" have a lot a nerve, short on professional knowledge, and needed to see the check stubs that Doyle Grissom and I got because of playing this 14 pound, good sounding, dependable little money making workhorse. I really wish I had more to sell and start more folks on the path to fun, money and all the other perks I have enjoyed being a professional musician. I would LOVE to see everyone play a pro guitar, and learn on a pro guitar, BUT---I don't feel that someone that has progressed beyond this guitar and moved up the ladder should look back and bash this guitar just because he is now able to afford a pro guitar. I never see "old pro" airline pilots or military fighter pilots putting down or laughing at The little "Piper Cub". As a matter of fact, a lot of them own one, for fun.
As far as John and Ann building this starter guitar themselves as has been stated previously, I think they also have contracted the manufacture of this guitar out and they are just the distributers.The preceding is a false rumor! I'm closing this topic. -b0b- If anyone cares to clear this up, I'd be happy to be corrected if wrong. And also , yes, I feel this is a great move forward for the industry, any steel guitar that is a good playable guitar should be looked upon as a move for the good and a move in the right direction. I also commend this company for taking up this slack in our ever growing market place. I wish them VERY well, as I would and will, anyone helping the industry.
But,Maverick bashing? I don't think so. They still have a place in the industry. Just don't pay to much, stay away from e-bay. Remember, Sho-Bud didn't make most of them. So don't let the name fool you.
Bobbe (love all steels) Seymour P.S.
By the way, I would love to buy a few Mavericks, www.steelguitar.net
If they are so bad, you better call me quick and get rid of them!!!!![This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 May 2002 at 07:16 PM.] [This message was edited by b0b on 18 May 2002 at 01:05 PM.] |
Al Udeen
Member From: maple grove mn usa
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posted 17 May 2002 11:38 PM
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I must fully agree with Bobbe on this one. when I was Sho-Bud Product Mgr, with Gretsch in the 70s, the Maverick retailed for $299.00 including a hard shell case. This model was intended to be a starter "no pun intended" model, how can you compare it to any guitar being built more than 30yrs later? It served its purpose well, & I dont think too many people lost money on them, as I see them on here occasionally for at least $300.00 Regards! au |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 18 May 2002 04:55 AM
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[quote[how can you compare it to any guitar being built more than 30yrs later?[/quote]
Obviously you can't. But is there any reason for a new player starting out to not avail him/herself of the newer technology? If we were talking about medicine, would anybody suggest using a 30 uear old treatment for a disease where there are newer and better ones available? The Maverick may have been the best thing around for a newbie in it's day, but that day has long since passed. Today's students need 3 or 4 knee levers. I've not seen the GFI student model so I can't comment on it. For all I know it may be a great guitar. But I have seen the Carter starter, and I think it's the way to go for new players. |
Roy Thomson
Member From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
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posted 18 May 2002 05:56 AM
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Bobbe you said something up the road a bit in answer to a question of b0b's.
" Sell the Carter Starter? Haven't seen one.
We cater to a different market."
Now either you don't market steel guitars or you don't regard the Carter Starter as a steel guitar.
Which is it?
And what is this difference in the market?Your fingerpickin' buddy
Roy [This message was edited by Roy Thomson on 18 May 2002 at 05:57 AM.]
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erik
Member From:
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posted 18 May 2002 06:14 AM
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I don't play pedal steel for 2 reasons:
1) added expense
2) I already play guitar, bass, keyboard, and drums poorly, i don't have enough time to play steel poorly too. That being said, i did at one time investigate buying a budget priced steel. Having read here the Emmons vs Day setup discussions, i reasoned i might be better off with the latter. I found a new GFI being sold by a dealer(not BS) for around seven or eight hundred $(can't remember), with 3 pedals, 4 knees available in the Day setup. If this doesn't matter to someone than the Carter starter is probably the best deal to start off with. I think telling new students that there are 2 styles of pedal setup is significant disclosure when addressing the learning of an instrument. |
Craig A Davidson
Member From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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posted 18 May 2002 06:35 AM
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I think what Bobbe was saying was that they deal in some new and some vintage like D-10 originals, and Fingertip Sho-Buds, and Pro-ll's. This is besides selling new Emmons, GFI, and used guitars like Zums and Mullins. If I wanted a certain kind of guitar I would call Bobbe before my local music store because of a better chance of being able to find it. That would be Bobbe's different kind of market. By the way I started on a Maverick and was tickled to death just to have a steel guitar at the time. I didn't know who Buddy Emmons or Jimmy Day were, I just liked the sound. By the way Bobbe if I spoke out of turn for you I apologize.------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele |
Roy Thomson
Member From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
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posted 18 May 2002 06:54 AM
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Thanks Craig.
You may be right but I find that confusing?
I'll wait for Bobbe. |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 18 May 2002 09:02 AM
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Yes, what Craig said. Exactly. Roy , reread my statements, I don't speak Canadian so there might be a language barrier. (I also don't spell english very well). We sell guitars from six reputable manufactures, all only deal in professional guitars except one that covers both markets,(pro and "starter")I would much rather see a player start off with a good quality guitar than a "get by starter" guitar that a pro couldn't play.
I, being in Nashville, feel I am being held to a higher standard than a pawn shoppe in the so. side of Chicago may be, or the regular music store that would handel a steel guitar just to make money, so I want the very best for my customers AND I want to sell them a product that I can give them their money back on in the future, hard to do with any student guitar sold new. You see Roy, when the customer wins, I do too!!!
Carter Starter or Maverick? We are lucky they are both here I 'spose, I'm glad Carter is building this guitar as I'm sure it will get some folks "started" as well, and so has the Maverick. But I'd like to see all start a little higher up the ladder if possible.There is the chance that any of these low budget "starters " will discourge a new player where a pro guitar wouldn't. I'm sure,even though I haven't seen one , that Carter is building the best guitar that can be built for the money, this is a tough trade off that this company may have the upper hand in dealing with and I comend them for doing so. I'd just hate to see everyone in thirty years , bashing the Carter starter like they are the Maverick, after it started many great pro careers. At least Carter picked up the ball when it was "out of play".
Your Thumbwhere buddy,
Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 18 May 2002 at 09:27 AM.] |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 18 May 2002 09:10 AM
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Anyone out there got any Mavericks for sale? My phone is still waiting for some calls offering me some. Could it be these guitars are possibly more appreciated that this post is indicating? Hey, I seriously need some, If they are so bad, here's your chance to unload. Come on Mike P.,Bob H. etc. Where are they? Love you guys, Lets have fun and play this stuff! |
Al Brisco
Member From: Toronto, ON Canada
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posted 18 May 2002 09:20 AM
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CARTER-STARTER construction clarification!
I had the privilege of spending 2 weeks at the Carter Factory, working with Bud & John this past March.
During my tenure, I not only assisted in building the Pro Models...(in fact I assembled & installed the keyheads & changer on Tommy White's new guitar) under the direction of Bud & John, but I also rodded & set-up app. 15 CARTER-STARTER's, which are manufactured by employees under John & Bud's direction in a separate unit in the same building.
They keep the manufacturing areas separate for business reasons.Believe me, most construction (with the exception of farmed out parts manufacturing), & all assembly is 'in house'! A very well run, efficient operation assists them in being able to market their products with Great Value for a Good Price! |
Stephen Gambrell
Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
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posted 18 May 2002 09:29 AM
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Come to think of it, my first attempt at steelin' was a Maverick that I bought in Huntsville, Alabama in 1976. Never learned to play it, except for "Fire on the Mountain," sort of. Paid 300.00, sold it for 300.00. Maybe I should have bought the Red Baron sitting next to it!
I guess, though, no matter how great or horrible it was, you never forget the first time.
P.S. I can't play the Emmons I've got now, either. |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 18 May 2002 09:54 AM
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Al, glad to see you working in the states!
Thanks for the clairification, I'm sure you had a good time and learned a lot.
Your friend ,
Bobbe |
Roy Thomson
Member From: Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
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posted 18 May 2002 10:04 AM
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I feel better now that the facts are on the table.
Bobbe I hope you get your truckload of Mavericks. I can just see the stampede!!
Stand back! [This message was edited by Roy Thomson on 18 May 2002 at 10:06 AM.] |
Jerry Hedge
Member From: Norwood Ohio U.S.A.
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posted 18 May 2002 10:18 AM
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I think we've gotten WAY TOO hung up in this "Well you need four knee levers, this Effect unit,that amp to be a steel guitar player." I for one wished I'd been a little more serious about learning to play my first PSG (a Maverick Type steel built for Fender by Sho-Bud) before I fell under the fallacy that more knees were better. The thing that opened my eyes to this was hearing Mike Sigler one year at the Southern Ohio show playing a Maverick at a dealer display. This guitar has no limits if you can PLAY STEEL GUITAR!!! The limits are in you as the operator not in the machine!!! Remember about a year, maybe a year and a half ago Tommy White was looking for a Maverick for an at home, practice guitar? Don't learn to play pedal steel-learn TO PLAY MUSIC!!! The instrument is just a tool!!! |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 18 May 2002 11:17 AM
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Jerry Hedge,Couldn't be said better, Tommy has bought at least one maverick from me and you are correct. I'd rather hear him play a Maverick than most others play anything in the professional line. Tommy played lap steel on a couple of my CDs and it was outstanding! No pedals at all. As Tom Morrell said once, "You either play or you don't"! The guitar is just a minor tool in the link. Thank you Jerry for putting it so eloquently. |
compuserve
Member From: ENGLAND
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posted 18 May 2002 11:22 AM
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HI MIKE glad your on the mend,I dont know much about the carter starter guitar,but i think that IMHO that one of the best student steels i ever played was the ZB student .i found it very easy to put extra knee levers As far as the on because the changer was the same as the pro zb range.As far as the maverick goes its better than nothing .
GOD BLESS JIM.------------------
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Topic Closed
The Steel Guitar Forum
