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Author
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Topic: Tuning straight up 440??
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John Steele
Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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posted 08 June 2002 03:02 PM
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I think Damir's comment point out an interesting phenomenon.
I've played with guitar players that I've clashed with... and not necessarily that they're out of tune either. When they're soloing and I'm doing pads, I sound out. When I leave him alone and play nothing, he sounds fine. When he leaves me alone, I sound fine.
In any situation, whichever instrument is dominant at the time sounds intonally correct.
The intervals are a subjective thing, I'm convinced. (I know, I know.. "subjectivity".. the reason this forum exists  )
I've also worked with guitarists who are more aware of this, and are dead on all the time. They're rare, it seems.
-John |
Chick Donner
Member From: North Ridgeville, OH USA
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posted 08 June 2002 03:42 PM
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I guess I'm the one who's missed something in 35 years of playing . . . but, I always DID "tune the beats out" WHEN I COULD HEAR THEM over the band/jukebox/drummer tuning, etc. I guess I'm just pleasantly surprised that after I finally "went electronic" 3 or 4 years or so ago, having bought a Korg DTR-1, that the basic Newman chart "tunes the beat(s) out" on all three of my guitars (2 Emmons PP's and an old ZB). It just makes it much easier to "touch up" while the lead player is doing his thing on the first set, or right after someone opens the door in February.
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Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 08 June 2002 07:48 PM
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Want to know the truth? It doesn't matter how you tune...as long as you can play it in tune. |
chas smith
Member From: Encino, CA, USA
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posted 08 June 2002 08:12 PM
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quote:
Did this composer have his 'concert grand' tuned to a strict ET?....it would be worth asking his piano tuner!
These guys get the best that is available.
quote:
Want to know the truth? It doesn't matter how you tune...as long as you can play it in tune.
Yup!After the orchestra strings were recorded, they were talking, in the control room, about how string sections are like a flock of birds flying. It only looks like they all turn at the same time. |
William Steward
Member From: Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands
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posted 09 June 2002 10:19 AM
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Although the subject of tuning may have now have been beaten thoroughly to death (and best summed up in the "whatever" comment) my point about the piano tuner was that a really good one can nail that 'subjective' jello to the wall by knowing a pianist's/composer's preference (in beats per second). I was implying that it is unlikely that the piano was tuned to exact ET or it would sound a bit sour in the extremities. The tuner's credentials were not in question - sorry to drag this out. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 09 June 2002 01:13 PM
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quote:
...string sections are like a flock of birds flying. It only looks like they all turn at the same time.
LOL! I never heard that one before.  ------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
Robert Thomas
Member From: Mehama, Oregon, USA
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posted 12 June 2002 07:08 PM
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I have always tuned straight up 440. I have never had a problem being out of tune with the band. At 440 your steel is in tune with everyone elso tuned to 440. If you are out of tune after that, you are having a problem with your ear and where you place your bar on the strings. Someone who knows when he is out of tune with everyone else just moves his bar to the point where he is in tune. That is the nice thing about a steel guitar, you can move the bar to the place where it should be. |
Jeff Peterson
Member From: Nashville, TN USA
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posted 12 June 2002 10:34 PM
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As a mechanic as well as a player, I'll tell ya'........almost every guitar is different as to tuning. I have not stepped on any toes in a while, so I guess I'm due. Again, as a mechanic, I work on all makes of guitars, and due to different reasons, they
ALL have to be tuned differently....temper-wise. Some fabulously named and made guitars I've worked on have had the worst cabinet-drop I've ever seen....thus, compensating in the open & pedal tuning is a must. I won't name names, of course, because I might get another guitar of the same make that is not that bad. Not that bad being 2-2 1/2-3 cents off on the E's. Now, (finally), I'll say flat out....any of you that own a guitar other than a Lashley III that say you don't have at least a 2 cent drop....I want to meet you and your guitar out back anytime. Just kiddin'.......about you, not your guitar.
Given the way these guitars vary, you need to calculate the amount of drop...try pressing your first pedal, and checking your 6th string for example, and then tempering,(or whatever...don't get over technical with me), your tuning to be 'in tune' with all your other strings........I never said this would be a five minute job. If you can hit your first pedal, watch your tuner, check your 6th string and not see a drop.....you're playing a Lashley III, all other guitars will show a drop of some degree.....the same with the first two pedals pressed, you'll see your E's drop to some degree. This is why some tune open to 442....'cause when you press a pedal....it puts you in tune.
Because of the difference in drop from guitar to guitar, I feel it is impossible to lay down a 'standard' for tempering a steel guitar tuning.....most will be close, but given ya'lls exacting standards, there is no standard....I would tune, and listen to the band or recording and then make my adjustments. What we hear from a solo performance and playing with other instruments may be different. |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 13 June 2002 06:46 AM
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quote:
I'll say flat out....any of you that own a guitar other than a Lashley III that say you don't have at least a 2 cent drop....I want to meet you and your guitar out back anytime. Just kiddin'.......about you, not your guitar.
My Dekley D-12 had about that much drop when it was new 20+ years ago. However I checked it recently and the tuner's needle doesn't move at all, on any string. The strings on it are old, but I guess age has settled everything in.  quote:
If you can hit your first pedal, watch your tuner, check your 6th string and not see a drop.....you're playing a Lashley III, all other guitars will show a drop of some degree.....the same with the first two pedals pressed, you'll see your E's drop to some degree.
Neither of those changes alter any other non-pulled strings on my Dekley, and it's the same on both necks! BTW, The tuners I checked it with are a Korg CA-30 and the built-in tuner in my Boss GX-700. ------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-
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C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 13 June 2002 07:09 AM
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I have never sat down to a PSG (except my Fender 400) that did not have cabinet drop until I tried every way I knew how to defeat the LeGrande III. (Which was unsucessful. It simply DOES what it was designed to do!).I am NOT saying there on no other guitars out there without cabinet drop. I just haven't ever seen one (Fender excluded). But this I do know. When properly adjusted, the LeGrande III has NONE, zilch, zero! It does however HAVE "cabinet raise", as every steel I have ever sat down to does (Fender excluded). Example: Engage the lever lowering the E's and the 6th string will raise in pitch. This causes a dilemma for me. Reason: In all the years I played lap steel, I never once had a problem tuning to C6. But with that dang cabinet raise on a PSG, it makes it IMPOSSIBLE for me to tune the B6 tuning to suit my ears. Since the 6th string is raising much than the 5h string the resultant minor chord (strings 4, 5 and 6 E's lowered) is OUT of tune. Oh well carl |
Don Benoit
Member From: Okanagan Falls, BC
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posted 13 June 2002 08:02 AM
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Common sense says that because the band tunes A to 440, the steel's A's should be tuned to 440 to be in tune with the band. Then when you tuned the E's harmonically, you will find that the they are around 442 or 442.5. Then tune up all your other strings and pedals with harmonics. Ricky's way of tuning is 100% correct and Buddy Emmons tunes with harmonics also. Now, let's all spend more time practicing!!------------------
http://members.shaw.ca/dben/psg.htm
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Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 13 June 2002 09:37 AM
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Some other issues that Jeff didn't mention are:
Strings: Different strings must be tuned differently. The overtones need to be compensated for. If a string is going dead it will not be tunable. The only time I can get a string in tune is when it is fresh or all the way dead. On the E9 tuning if you use a wound 6th string it will ring very differently than a plain.Bar pressure: ones own personal way of using the bar affects the notes in a big way. Different steels:
If a steel does not accentuate the even overtones within its basic construction it will always sound flubbery and never quite dead on with intonation. Even an individual note can sound off somehow.
I know that we are all supposed to say that all the steel brands are great but they are not. Neck: Try playing an open major triad on 3 strings. Then play another major triad at the 8th fret on the same 3 strings. Move on up to the 15th fret. If you have any ears at all you will find that each triad is very different sounding. The only way to play in tune is to train your ears. Tuners are a usefull tool in some situations but are absolutly useless when it comes to playing in tune. I just think a bunch of you guys are just plain bonkers when it comes to the cabinet drop thing. The guitar I use for sessions and most gigs these days is my Franklin and it has cabinet drop but I have no more problems playing it in tune than I do with any other steel. If you use your eyes to find out if your guitar is in tune it will probably never be. Bob |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 13 June 2002 10:30 AM
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quote:
If a string is going dead it will not be tunable.
That's a real good point, Bob.
Carl, I don't see how you can stand to play every day on strings that are two years old. Do your ears a favor and put on some new strings. I think that you've proved your point about string breakage by now. You deserve a new set of strings! ------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
Franklin
Member From:
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posted 13 June 2002 11:58 AM
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Here's my two cents.The steel has to sound in tune with the center pitch of the band. Without continuously developing the musicians ears this tuning battle is lost everytime no matter what tuning method is chosen. I can vouch that Ricky most definately has the ears it takes to work professionally in any arena. Hang in there! You're right on the mark with the silent majority on this topic. Once the bar is on the neck, whether anyone can play in tune without highly developed ears is a bet not worth taking. The bar is the ultimate tuning device. I tune to my version of JI. Using JI there are combinations that are inherently out of tune without some sort of remedy. We can probably all agree on that. Instead of tuning to ET which is believed by some as the ONLY remedy for this problem, I chose to solve that problem by using compensators on the strings that were creating the problem within JI. I have no problem playing all of the seventh, ninth, and first string combinations in tune with the band. ET is only ONE way to solve the problem. Compensators is the OTHER way which is my preference. ET also brings to the table a few inherent tuning problems of its own. The end result to this debate will always be this, ALL tuning methods are some sort of compromise. We must choose the one most pleasing to our way of listening. Whether its an orchestra or a small band, the steel player will either play in tune or not. Since I have recorded many times with full orchestration as well as playing live with an orchestra I can state from firsthand experience that one setting does not require any more tuning abilities than the other. If you can play in tune with the first three instruments (Bass, Piano, Guitar) the next fifty instruments or so added to the track will not make any difference to your tuning at all. Why? Because they all are tuning to the same center of pitch coming from those three combined instruments as we should. Paul |
Ray Montee
Member From: Portland, OR, USA
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posted 13 June 2002 11:59 AM
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Recognizing that I'm NOT nor will ever be the professional steel player as many of you fine Forumites obviously are, I simply have to say that regardless of which corner you're in, I could play 100 SLOW verses of Steel Guitar Rag on my 32 string Bigsby quad (in TUNE!) while a few of you guys are content to stand on the side of the stage debating the technical and/or proper way to tune your instrument. HOW MANY TIMES HAS THIS SUBJECT BEEN DISCUSSED ON THE FORUM and some folks still can figure out the simple fact that if you're out of tune.....somebody ain't gonna fit into the "good" sound of the group.
Never in my life, until the invention and introduction of the electronic tuning device, have I ever seen/heard so many steel players playing so horribly out of tune with the rest of their group and yet displaying a measure of self confidence unsurpassed.
I wonder if that's why some bands are shying away from steel guitars....? Having two necks with 10-12-14 strangs in perfect tune with one's own personal tuning gadget.....does not necessarily make a pleasant sounding harmonious group. There are other musicians and instruments that must be dialed into this forumla.
Since the advent of tuning machines, one can see more and more of the "independent" attitude among steel players.....if'n you get to the stage early and watch them set up.
It's like.....I'm in tune (just like B.Emmons or J.Byrd or H.Rugg or J.Newman) so to H--- with the other members of the band.
After playing my Bigsby and Emmons for decades and having everyone tune with/to ME... to my high "E" note, I NEVER ENCOUNTERED tuning conflicts.....unless somebody in the group was TONE DEAF!!!! (or simply drunk!)
Then, some years back, I broke my own rule and played with a group that had an electronic keyboard with player who had even taken music lessons.
Night after night I chased my strings, tuning pitch, etc.....all over the place and at the end of the four hour gig, I was still "OUT OF TUNE". Then....I discovered the little moran could electronically adjust his PITCH by turning a little knob like on a tape recorder........ Once we placed some duct tape over his little knob, EVERYONE was successful in staying in tune all night, week after week.
Today, so many pickers seem locked into the misconception that "I'm in tune" without any regard to where the other band members are at relative to a standard pitch of one kind or another. HOW DOES THIS WORK?
This attitude would be interesting if it were applied by "The Four Tenors" or "The McGuire Sisters" or any other close harmony
vocal or instrumental group. No matter HOW you get there....you either are IN TUNE or OUT of TUNE! There is no GRAY AREA IMHO.
To prove this, detune your 5th string on your E9th neck....just give it a partial turn, lower it a smidgen, and then play for not less than two hours...using pedals and the like. Forget that contraption called a tuning device! If you fail to determine that your rig is out of tune or what you should do about it, then you need some real help.
I'm leaving town in an hour.....so no ugly emails expecting an immediate response, okay? If you cain't TUNE IT.... you shouldn't be on lesson #2 yet. |
Kenny Dail
Member From: Kinston, N.C. 28504
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posted 13 June 2002 01:15 PM
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Some food for thought...the older the strings...the less the string detunes or, the less cabinet drop. If you change strings too frequently, you will have tuning problems untill they are "used" enough to settle in. I am sure the old timers and some of the more experienced players will agree with me. As amatter if individual preference, you can tell when "your strings" need replacing. I always loosen and snap the wound strings and replace the unwound. Of course, as long as the intonation is good, and they ring...keep on playing the unwound until they go dead or break. ------------------
kd...and the beat goes on...
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Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 13 June 2002 01:35 PM
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quote:
...the older the strings...the less the string detunes or, the less cabinet drop.
Kenny, I hadn't heard or noticed that, but if true, could explain the lack of detuning on my Dekley as the strings are over one year old!  I'm waiting for a break from gigs and to recuperate from my recent move to disassemble the changer and do some work on it. I will test the detuning again with new strings after I get it back together. |
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
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posted 13 June 2002 07:53 PM
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I know that when I was obsessed with intonation (checking cabinet drop and worrying about calibrating each string and change) my intonation was much worse than it is now. The ear is the best judge, imho. For most of the sessions I do (other than tracking) I tune to the track (I get the tone center from the track and tune appropriately, by ear). As Paul says, the ultimate control is the bar. I know that there are combinations that are inherently out of tune given the way my ear works. This is not only acceptable, but is one of the primary interesting things about the steel guitar: that it is capable of playing in tune (unlike the piano or guitar). I have learned how to play with pianos, string sections, etc, but there are many other ways to accomplish this other than to accept the compromises that fixed pitch instruments have been forced to take (ET). The fundamental principle is to take the fret markers as a guide, not a rule. |
chas smith
Member From: Encino, CA, USA
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posted 13 June 2002 10:30 PM
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I had one last year where the tracks came from the "orchestra factory" in Seattle. They were so out of tune with themselves I had to be told who to play in tune with and disregard the others. |
Kenny Dail
Member From: Kinston, N.C. 28504
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posted 13 June 2002 10:33 PM
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Jim, You do have a great guitar...however, may I recommend that you only change a couple strings at the time. Of course, if the changer needs cleaning...Go for the whole thing. All kidding aside, As your strings age and settle in, you will find that the "drop zone" is affected due to loss of the elasticity of the strings as they "age". I don't do much studio work so I don't change my strings a frequently as a studio player does/should. Just thought this might get a laff or two.  ------------------
kd...and the beat goes on...
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John Lacey
Member From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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posted 14 June 2002 07:02 AM
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Paul, once you find the "center" of the band for a tuning reference, do you tune the beats out for all of your major pulls, factoring in the compensators? |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 14 June 2002 07:54 AM
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Also, Paul,
What strings on E9 do you feel need to be compensated, given your pedal and lever changes?How 'bout C6? Hope you see this -- I'm sure we'd all be interested in your answers. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 June 2002 at 08:16 AM.] |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 14 June 2002 12:01 PM
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Till Paul gets back.Given his codedent. I would like to guess and say he uses lower return compensators on strings 2,4,5,6,8 and 10 on E9.Only a guess of course. I too would be interested in knowing if he uses any other compensators like on strings 1 and 7.Always good to see you post Paul. EDIT: I forgot Paul lowers his 6th string 2 whole tones with a knee and a whole tone with his 4th pedal.Since Franklin guitars only have double lower I guess you can scratch the 6th. [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 14 June 2002 at 12:20 PM.] |
basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 14 June 2002 01:24 PM
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A=440 in most modern music, not anything else. www.waikiki-islanders.com
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quote:
Steel players do it without fretting
http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk [This message was edited by basilh on 14 June 2002 at 01:25 PM.]
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Franklin
Member From:
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posted 14 June 2002 06:34 PM
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Yes, Once I find the center of pitch I then tune everything by ear. Major Triads sound the sweetest to my ears with none to minimal beats. I have return compensators on strings 2,4, 5, 6 & 8 on the E9th. I wasn't refering to return compensators earlier in this thread. I was refering to "tuning compensators" which I use on strings 1, 7, and 9 with certain pedal combinations. On the C6th tuning compensators are definately needed on strings 4 & 8. Strings 1 (D note) and 9 may need a little tweaking depending on the players pedal setup. It is my understanding that tuning everything straight up came about because of the desire to play these strings mentioned above with all open and pedals down positions and NOT because JI or tuning the beats out did not sound in tune with the band. This is an important fact the continues to be overlooked. I am very content using the compensator remedy and it works perfectly well in the studio which is in my opinion the most critical tuning arena any musician faces.
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chas smith
Member From: Encino, CA, USA
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posted 14 June 2002 08:21 PM
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Yes because if the guitar doesn't sound like it's in tune with itself, it sure won't sound like it's in tune with anyone else. | |
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