A novel idea occurred to me as I thought about this problem. Change the force. Instead of tension on the guitar body, make the force compression. How? Modify the changer and the nut. Instead of mounting these on the surface of the body, make the frame of the changer extend through the body and make the frame of the nut extend through the body as well. Attach tensioning rods between the nut and changer to counter the tension of the strings. Also attach tensioning rods between the nut and the tuner frame. The idea is to make the tension of the strings and the tensioning rods equal. So now the body is not in tension anymore rather it is in compression.

If the tension of the top and bottom are equal the body of the guitar will be straight (provided it is strong enough to withstand the 500 pounds of compression). The force will be transmitted into the body evenly throughout the thickness of the guitar rather than on one side as is the case with current guitar designs.

I can see two major benefits of this approach. The first is the virtual elimination of cabinet drop making the guitar easier to tune and play. The second is increased sustain due to increased pressure on the body.

[This message was edited by Karlis Abolins on 27 June 2002 at 02:36 AM.]

Brilliant post. ONlY one problem.

Sound!!!!

IF, you can retain that, I am with you all the way! NOT sure you can, but maybe.

God bless you with your ideas and willingness to number one, accept there IS a problem. And number two; to try and figure out a solution. I applaud your efforts,

A two-to-three cent drop is both obtainable and acceptable (read...insignificant), IMHO.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 27 June 2002 at 08:32 AM.]

Four pedal steel guitars have already eleminated cabinet drop: Fender 1000, 2000, 400, & 800.

"A two-to-three cent drop is both obtainable and acceptable (read...insignificant), IMHO"

With much Christian love and respect, a 3 cent drop is totally UNacceptable to me. ONLY Zero drop is acceptable to me.

I predict one day that WILL be standard. Without having to use a counterforce option like the LeGrande III.

When, I haven't a clue.

God bless you,

Karlis

[This message was edited by Karlis Abolins on 27 June 2002 at 12:03 PM.]

quote:

---

Kyle, your solution about carbon composite necks will shortly be seen on your new guitars.

---

I believe one of the reasons my D-12 Dekley has little to no cabinet drop is that the massive, almost solid, Pakkawood necks are bolted firmly to the body, keeping the body from flexing. I'm hoping to do some work on this guitar over the next two weeks and will be able to report my findings at that time.

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Are you telling us that there will be zero cabinet drop on all of the ne MSA guitboxs?

------------------
Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

With my brand new Emmons LLII SD-10 it is also 2 cents.

I guess you could say that's my 2 cents worth.

I, likewise, agree. I bet I'm often 2 cents off with my bar placement. Even with a good ear, it's not always easy, especially above the 12 fret.

However, one must realize that this stress, once the open strings are tuned, is "ZERO" stress in relation to a given pedal(s) and/or knee lever(s)) additional stress.

In other words, WHEN the A pedal is engaged, and another string drops, it is NOT due to the 300# of static pull. That pull is already there!! And the opening tuning has NO strings that are in a dropped state. UNTIL some additonal pull(s) occurs.

Rather, it is ONLY the two pulls on the A pedal (in this instance) that has an affect on a string or strings dropping. So 300#'s suddenly becomes 50 pounds of pull. NOT 300.

Something that MOST cabinets can easily handle with OUT the problem we all face more or less.

So what we are looking at here in the case of the A pedal and the 6th string dropping as an example is: The root cause is promulgated by the two B strings ONLY being raised.

Now the 64 million dollar question is; WHAT is allowing that 6th string to drop?

WHEN you find this, the solution should be quite easy. The Problem is and has been all along, I have found NO one that can satisfy me that it is in fact the cabinet bowing that is causing MOST of the drop.

Ron Lashley said it was NOT! His words to me on 2 different occasions were,

"I KNOW what is causing it. AND, it is more than one thing".

I tried my best to get him to tell me. But that was never to be.

God rest his precious soul,

I DON'T WORRY ABOUT DROP BECAUSE MY EARS CAN'T HEAR A 2 CENT DROP AND I ENVY YOU GUYS THAT CAN HEAR THAT.

quote:

---

I bet I'm often 2 cents off with my bar placement.

---

You are correct.

The reason that the "Jeff Newman" tuning guideline* is so popular, is it takes into consideration just what you speak of.

Jeff would be the last player on earth to recommend we shapen our E's by a full two and one half cycles IF, it were NOT for cabinet drop. His ears are just too good for that. Few players on earth play MORE in tune than Jeff. Along with his awesome teaching attributes.

The reason the 442.5 works is because MOST players are always pulling toward the A chord rather than pulling toward the E chord. This is because that is what A and B do!!

Cabinet drop is creating an almost "false" situation. We WANT The 4th string to be 440. But dang it, when ya go down on A and/or B it aint 440 no MO!!! (If you are from SHY-Cargo that means it is LESS than 440 hoss. )

So we purposely raise the E's so that as one engages these pedals cabinet drop lowers the E's back to 440 where it belongs! (Or there abouts.)

*Note: NOT all guitars need 442.5. Some need less. Rarley do they need more. Experiment with yours, using Jeff's chart as a starting point, until you find one that will allow you to play OVER the fret. You will be suprised.

May Jesus bless you in your quest(s)

Here is my reasoning: The anti-detuner device is not engaged UNTIL a given pedal is depressed on E9th, UNLESS the guitar has the device installed on the C6 neck as well.

Which I understand, is not too many. In other words, while it is availabe on both necks, most opt' to have it only on the E9th neck. Its cost just doesn't justify it. BE would be an exception, because he is one of few that plays more on C6 than E9th.

I do not know whether Buddy has it on his C neck.

In another thread, someone posted that bowing of the cabinet IS the root cause of so-called" cabinet drop, because E9th strings drop just as much when C6 pedals are pressed. He added that because the pedals on the C neck are closer to the middle, the drop would be even more. Or words to this affect. I have not thought about that in years.

So tell you what, I have a LeGrande II sittin in my music room. I am going to flat find out. I will let ya know later.

That WOULD prove it once and for all. My guess it, it 'taint so. IF it is, I will be the first to say it!

I did it (jes lack ah had gud cents! )

Below are the parameters and the readings.

Stats:

1. In order to make the test evenly reliable, I chose to chime the 6th string at the 12th fret, because it is a .022P and even normal picking can throw the measurement way off. The only other (better) way I know of is to use an Ebow. But I don't own one.

2. I used a tuner I purchased from Emmons' that has proven to be quite accurate. It is an analog (needle) type.

3. I compared the drop on string 6 on the E9th neck ONLY during the testing.

4. I used ONLY the A pedal and the 6th pedal.

5. The A pedal pull rod is about 2 and 3/8 inches from the right edge of the left front leg.

6. The 6th pedal is about 15 and 1/4 inches from the right edge of the left front leg. Or, pretty close to being in the middle of the guitar.

7. I waited for the "attack" of chiming the string to subside before noting the reading.

8. My tuner is calibrated in 10's of "Cents" meaning, each line reprents exactly 10 full cents of movement up or down.

9. Because of this, accurate interpolation is a must. Many have not had experience in this procedure. What has to be done is to "see" invisible lines when viewing, where each line represents 1 cent (or less).

This is not easily done without experience.

I am blessed with having been taught how to do this with RCA in my working career when reading volt ohmeters using a needle. It takes some practice to say that it is 4 cents (volts) versus 5.5 cents, etc.

But it CAN be done and in some cases people have with much experience honed it to a very accurate scenario.

The findings:

1. A pedal pressed--6th string E9th dropped 9.2 cents.

2. 6th pedal pressed--6th string E9th dropped .8 cents.

Enough said. I stand on my premise that most of the Cabinet drop is NOT in fact coming from the cabinet bowing.

I will not debate it further.

The composite Body of the Millennium has the sound characteristics of wood while possessing other attributes which wood does not have.

Consistency is achievable with composite material, therefore, each Millennium will sound exactly the same, while the sound generated from each piece of wood varies due to age, moisture content, tightness of grain, etc. All these inherent variables relative to wood create inconsistency, which explains why each wood guitar, even the same brand, can have different tonal characteristics.

In addition, composite material does not recognize temperature variances, neither prolonged nor sudden, and composite material weighs far less and is many times stronger than wood.

G# (0.022") tuned to 0
press A pedal==> -9.1 cents
press A+F==>-9.9
tune B's to C#==>-4.2

I also experience +2.2 cents RAISE when E is lowered to D on 8 and +2.5 when both 8 and 4 are lowered to D# (2nd string D is also lowered to C# on that lever).

I believe that flexibility between the nut and the bridge is a key factor. FWIW.

The trick is to get a happy medium. I can live with a half cycle or even one (2-5 cents) without serious tuning problems. I'd be happy with that on the guitar in question.

What you say is probably true for a D-10, but it is possible that, since torque is applied to primarily the front left quadrant (peghead end) that the amount of flex could be disproportionate toward the front. But, like I say, I am neither engineer nor physicist -- nor mechanic.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 June 2002 at 04:46 PM.]