|
Author
|
Topic: Sierra Changer lockup problem
|
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 13 July 2002 09:41 AM
profile
In a previous thread, I discussed a problem I am having on string 4 of my Sierra Session 12. The result of that was that I took out all the pull rods on string 4, and the spring too, so as to check for free movement in the changer.
As a check, I did the same on string 3 (where there is no problem).
Sure enough, the difference at the changer is obvious. The String 3 fingers move easily at the touch of my finger. String 4 has some movement, but the bridge end moves only if forced - something is blocking it. I have taken some photos to
illustrate the problem.
I can't see any obstructions - no loose string ends. Its just as if the bridge section on string 4 was too big for the bridge slot - but it can't be that as the problem only started since I changed strings (when I did lose a ball end on str 3).
Has anyone got any ideas what I should do next ?
|
Leon Roberts
Member From: Tallahassee,FL USA
|
posted 13 July 2002 12:26 PM
profile
mickd, This suggestion is predicated on your mechanical ability. When I have a changer problem as you have now, I take the rods off the changer, plus the springs. From your post, you have accomplished this step. Next, loosen all the other strings to the point of no tension at all. Next, find a rod or axial the same diameter as the axial rod on your changer. slide the extra axial rod just past the 4th string changer. Next, pull the spare axial out until the 4th string changer drops out. You should now be able to examine the changer completely. If the ball end of the string drops out, just reverse the steps taken to assemble your guitar. You might find some other problem with the changer. In that case, I would contact the manufacturer. Now would be a good time to tell you that I know nothing at all about your brand of guitar. This is what I do when changer problems arise on my old 70's Sho-Buds. However, the mechanical principles are the same so you might be able to adapt them.
Just trying to help, Leon |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 13 July 2002 12:42 PM
profile
Leon
thanks for the suggestion.
Let me make sure I understand what you are saying.
Do you mean to feed in the temporary axle rod at the string 1 end at the same time as I remove the permanent one from the other end (so as to stop the changers on strings 1,2,3 from dropping down) ?
Has anyone ever done this on a Sierra - I could do with some reassurance that theres no hidden snag here.
Mick |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
|
posted 13 July 2002 12:56 PM
profile
Mick, it seems pretty obvious that you have
a broken piece of string end in the changer.
Do you have access to an air compressor that will put out 150 psi or more? If so it would be worth attaching a "blow gun" air hose attachment to the compressor with your string and springs unhooked from the forth string fingers and WEAR SOME EYE PROTECTION and see if you can manipulate the changer finger while trying to dislodge and blow out the broken string end with the air pressure.
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 13 July 2002 at 12:57 PM.] |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
|
posted 13 July 2002 01:08 PM
profile
Mick, is your top picture reversed? If not, the finger you are moving in the picture is the 9th string, not the 4th!  |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
|
posted 13 July 2002 02:35 PM
profile
Something must be stuck in there. It would be nice to avoid having to slide the changer axle out. But I doubt that compressed air would push it out. |
Leon Roberts
Member From: Tallahassee,FL USA
|
posted 13 July 2002 08:12 PM
profile
Mickd, You understood correctly. Feed the temporary axial in while it pushes the other axial out. This will prevent changers 1,2,and 3 from dropping out. Then slowly pull the temp axial out until the 4th changer drops out. Make sure all the strings have no tension. Like I said in my other post, I'm not familar with your guitar. This works very well on a Sho-Bud. If you feel uncomfortable doing this, try some of the other suggestions. |
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
|
posted 14 July 2002 05:51 AM
profile
Hey Mick. Not to beat a dead horse---if you know there's no string piece in there, well, there's no string piece in there. But....a couple of years ago I had a changer binding problem and spent an extraordinary amount of time ruling out the possibility of a ball end being stuck in there. To my amazement I finally found it. It was profoundly buried and was hell to get out. I worried about mangling the changer in the process because even with a good needle-nose grip on it it was so stuck that it wouldn't budge. It took some real work to get out. Definitely a freak thing, like a penny landing on its edge or something. But the point is that it was so well hidden between a raise and lower finger that I concluded that there was no place left that it could be, and that it must be something else.
Therefore anything....anything....me playing out of tune, hitting a bad note, smelling bad in public, is first assumed to be a ball end in the changer. |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 14 July 2002 09:56 AM
profile
thanks for the replies everyone 
Jerry - I don't have access to an air compressor anymore, so I am going to see if I can execute Leon's procedure without the guitar breaking up into pieces like a jigsaw puzzle 
Jim - I checked and the picture is correct ! You can see that the strings in the distance are thicker than the ones in the foreground (don't get me started on string 9 and the B-> D raise  )
Jon - I hope you're right & it is a string end. If it is, then it beats me where it is & how come its managed to hide from me so well but maybe I'll find out.
So firts thing I've got to do is unscrew the hex nut one end to see what size 'compensator' rod to hunt for.. |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
|
posted 14 July 2002 10:41 AM
profile
Oops, my bad.  |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 14 July 2002 12:54 PM
profile
well, I took off the hex nuts at each end and it looks like the whole rod may be threaded. It doesnt give when I push it with my finger. Does this mean I have to somehow unscrew it ? Or, could it be that its just the ends that are threaded (so the hex nuts have something to attach to so as to prevent sideways slippage of the whole assembly ?).
Obviously, if its threaded the whole way through and I try to push it with brute force I'm not going to get very far. But even if its just the ends, I don't see how I can push the rod through the individual changers as the thread will catch on the changer won't it ? [This message was edited by mickd on 14 July 2002 at 12:58 PM.] |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
|
posted 14 July 2002 01:12 PM
profile
What you were told about the Sho-Bud changer may not be applicable to the Sierra changer at all. I suggest you send an email to Sierra themselves at sierrasteelguitars@imagina.com and ask for their suggestions. Also, there must be someone on the Forum that has worked on a Sierra changer at one point or another that could tell you for sure how to attack this problem.It may be that the entire changer will have to be removed in order to get the shaft out. If you have to go as far as removing the changer, you should be able to find the problem without removing the shaft. |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 14 July 2002 02:09 PM
profile
Jim
yeah - I'll give Tom a call tomorrow night unless someone on the forum pipes up first.
Mick |
Joseph Barcus
Member From: Volga West Virginia "usa"
|
posted 15 July 2002 02:51 AM
profile
Jim that would be a good dream ( a steel builder giving advise with email lol ehehhh thats a good one. take care and I do hope he finds the trouble. Joe West virgina |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
|
posted 15 July 2002 05:56 AM
profile
Especially in this case, email is the most logical solution. Mick is in London, England and I'm sure a phone call to Portland, Oregon will be very expensive! |
Peter
Member From: Cape Town, South Africa
|
posted 15 July 2002 08:39 AM
profile
10 years ago I walked in a music shop in Denmark Street, London. There was a PSG there, built by the owner of the store, but I forgot his name. Maybe the shop is still there? I am sure he can also help.
Maybe look for a link for PSG builders overseas. Or just look in the Yellow pages and make a few calls.
There is also a builder in Holland, Jan Visser.
Hope this helps.
------------------
Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa
[This message was edited by Peter on 15 July 2002 at 09:35 AM.] |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 15 July 2002 12:26 PM
profile
I called Tom today (he was just off the phone to B0b, who'd told him all about my problem - thanks B0b ).Tom was very generous with his time, as usual. The good news is that the changer axle rod is only partly threaded and it is possible to push it through. The bad news is that this will not cause the changer to drop down - it is secured in several other places also. All it will let me do is examine the bushel which sits between the changer shaft and the top of the changer. Theres defintely no way a string could get in there but Tom thinks theres a very slight chance it may somehow have got 'frozen'. There isn't any other way of getting inside the changer. I've just spent 1/2 hour with it under the brightest spotlamp I've got and still no sign of a string. Peter - you won't find any PSG's in Denmark Street these days (plenty of cheap dobros and a few Nationals though). There is a man who advertises in the UK Steelies magazine for PSG repairs and it look like I'm going to have to call him and see if he has a magic wand. I may just try the 'frozen bushel' theory first, though I'm nervous of doing it  [This message was edited by mickd on 15 July 2002 at 12:28 PM.] |
Leon Roberts
Member From: Tallahassee,FL USA
|
posted 15 July 2002 04:13 PM
profile
MICKD. I want to apologize for my post. I didn't realize that your guitar was so "HIGH TECH". However, I want to commend you on having the foresight to discontinue the suggested operation when it appeared that my solution was not the answer. I should have kept my .02 cents to my self. Once again my old U.S.Navy "CAN DO" attitude got me in a sling. It sounded like you needed some help, but evidently your guitar is much more complicated than the old Sho-Buds. The only soul saving thing about my post was I warned you about not knowing anything thing about your guitar and left it up to your level of mechanical ability and the good sense to wait for more accurate information. I hope you can get your horn working properly because I know how frustrating that can be. If you ever get an old Sho-Bud and have problems, don't hesitate to email me.
Leon
|
Joe Smith
Member From: Charlotte, NC, USA
|
posted 16 July 2002 12:36 PM
profile
OK, here is one more idea that might be worth a try. If you can find a small magnetic screw driver, You might be able to pull the string out with it.
Good luck and I sure hope you are able to get it fixed.
Joe |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 17 July 2002 10:44 AM
profile
Leon - no apology called for. I went out and bought a big G-cramp today (thats what its called in the UK anyway - maybe its called a clamp in the States) so that I can do exactly what you suggested. Its still worth a try, as there is a slight chance that's where the problem is
Joe - thing is, I can't see the slightest sign of any string anywhere. Tom told me to stick a really thin long allen key inside and just fish about, so I will try that and see if anything comes up. I will ask around & see if I can get a thin magnetic screwdriver anyway.
|
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
|
posted 17 July 2002 01:48 PM
profile
Yeah--if there's a piece of string still stuck in there, it's WAY stuck and magnetism ain't gonna worry it none. But if Tom's got you fishing, you might try a nail file. I have a pair of ultra thin, ultra long needle nose pliers and that makes a great probe. Even a sliver of thin, stiff plastic (want to cut up your creditcard?) could get between the fingers well.Leon--I take it as a given that anything anyone posts applies, first and foremost, to their specific example (your Sho-Bud). To apply that to a different situation must be done carefully, intelligently and at one's own risk. I appreciated your suggestion and have it filed away in my brain as one more valuable thing I didn't know before but know now. |
Ole Dantoft
Member From: Copenhagen, Denmark
|
posted 17 July 2002 05:36 PM
profile
mickd,
Sorry for not seeing this thread before now !I have a guitar exactly like yours, and when I got it, it had been in it's case for quite some time, following a period of busy road-work. At first I didn't have any problems at all, but after a couple of weeks it developed all sorts of strange tuning-problems, mainly strings not returning to tuned pitch after being pedaled. As it turned out, the changer was all "gummed-up" i.e. there was a sticky substance of old oil and dust and smoke and whatnot everywhere, so I cleaned it as much as I possibly could without taking it apart, and that helped somewhat, but not completely, so I started looking into it - like you've done - with a bright light and I couldn't see anything unusual at first, but I'd seen the advise here on the Forum to turn it upside down and see if anything would fall out of the changer, so I turned a couple of times while excercising the changer thorougly and all of a sudden a ball-end with the usual 1" of string fell out, and NOW when I looked down into the changer there were more where it came from - I pulled no less than 6 STRING-ENDS from the changer, and remember that I couldn't see ANY OF THEM from the beginning !!! If I were you I'd clean, oil and excercise that changer thorougly, both with the guitar in playing position AND upside down in the case, and then see if I could find that string-end !! Hope this might help ! Ole[This message was edited by Ole Dantoft on 17 July 2002 at 05:37 PM.] |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
|
posted 17 July 2002 06:15 PM
profile
I'm not familiar with Sierra, but I believe the newer models have a redesigned changer built specifically to prevent the "lost string end" problem you just might have. If/when you get this resolved, see if you can stuff a piece of foam rubber into the back of the changer to prevent any string ends from falling in there in the future. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 17 July 2002 08:41 PM
profile
That's true, Jim. My Sierra Session was made in '96, and the changer fingers have a "hook" that catches the ball end of the string. I used to have a Sierra Crown that had a ball or two stuck in the changer for years. |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 18 July 2002 11:51 AM
profile
Jim - yes, I heard about the hook; my guitar was made in 93, just before that modification. I certainly will apply the 'foam fix' once I get this sorted out.
Ole - 6 is quite a good crop . I'd settle for just one right now . I'll refix a changer rod to string 4 and try what you suggest |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 18 July 2002 02:37 PM
profile
well, I refixed a raise change on string 4 but it didn't do much because theres no string on there . I don't want to put any more strings back on until this thing is fixed.
I finally tried Leon's procedure, albeit tentatively. I just pushed the changer axle in (using the clamp) until it was flush & then pushed it back again. I phoned Tom mid-way through for reassurance, as it was feeling a little stiff. I now have some confidence to go to the next stage with this manoevre, but first I'm going to try some high-pressure air, if I can find some - can't do any harm. If that doesn't do the trick, then its out with the axle.
Ole - when you pulled those 6 ends from the changer, which end were you pulling from ? |
Mark Herrick
Member From: Los Angeles, CA
|
posted 18 July 2002 07:33 PM
profile
I've been following this thread and am willing to bet at this point you're going to have to disassemble the changer.You'd be surprised how much crud can collect in the axle and down between the fingers; microscopic metal filings, dirt, dried up oil, etc. I did this with an all-pull changer once (not a Sierra though) and had no problems reassembling everything - and it worked great. Just get one of those plastic boxes with dividers, like you use for fishing tackle, and label each compartment. And make sure you document rod locations on the changer before you disassemble it. Clean everything real well with Naptha or Lacquer Thinner and maybe even some very fine steel wool. It sounds like a daunting task, but when you're finished you'll really know the mechanics of that guitar. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 19 July 2002 08:38 AM
profile
If you go that route (tearing down the changer), be sure to write down which hole and bell crank slot each of the pull rods was in. That will save you a lot of grief when you put it back together.
I assign a letter ABCDE to the changer holes, and a number 1234 to the bell crank slots. I keep a copedent chart that has a code like B2 for each pull, so that if I have to yank a rod I'll put it back with the right leverage.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
Ole Dantoft
Member From: Copenhagen, Denmark
|
posted 19 July 2002 09:17 AM
profile
Mickd,
When I pulled those string ends it was a major acrobatic challenge ! I had the guitar upright, then upside down, then ... etc. It's been 2 years since I did it, but I remember taking of several of the return-springs to be able to pull some from the underside of the changer, but I also remember pulling one from the bottom front-side of the changer - the one that faces the middle of the guitar. It took some time and patience, but I never had any tuning-problems with it again. I'm not playing that guitar much these days, as I've got an Emmons P/P now, but I actually pulled it out of the case after reading this thread, and it still plays sooo smoth and actually sounds better than I remember, but maybe that's actually ME sounding better, who knows ? Ole |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 19 July 2002 10:56 AM
profile
Mark - I'm willing to take all the pull rods out, the springs and maybe even the changer axle, but thats as far as I would dare go. If that isn't enough then I'll have to find someone with more experience than me. I know my limits .
B0b - noted; I have labelled all the rods and springs I've removed so far.
I just got back from a petrol station where I tried blowing into the changer using the air hose they have there but it was way too low pressure. I'll try the local tyre firm tomorrow as they should have an air compressor.
Ole - I reattached a string plus spring to the string 4 changer and worked the F lever with the guitar upside down but nothing fell out (yet)[This message was edited by mickd on 19 July 2002 at 10:59 AM.] |
Jim Eaton
Member From: Santa Susana, Ca
|
posted 19 July 2002 12:28 PM
profile
Mick,
You may have already done this, but here is another idea.
Try standing the guitar on it's end, with the changer end to the top when you work the pedals/levers. I had good luck using that position to get stg ends to fall out of a Sho-Bud single neck. They would not come loose in the normal playing position or with the guitar turned upside down as if in the case, but with the guitar stood on its end, they worked free and fell out.
Good Luck
JE:-)> |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 20 July 2002 05:19 AM
profile
Success !!!!!!!!!!!
I started removing the changer axle rod; I had only gone about 1/4" when I stopped and touched the string 4 control finger - suddenly it was moving freely again! Still no string ends have come out, so I can only assume (so far) that it was the bushing on the axle rod that was gummed up and it worked free when I moved the axle.
Now that I've gone this far, I am going to carry on and remove all springs/pull rods and give the changer a good clean. Will also see if I can get a high pressure blower in there to help. I may not push the axle any further as I can see it might be difficult to get it back in. Will now do a forum search on 'gunk'.
Jim - I will try your tip once I get the strings back on again.
Thanks everyone for all the help so far [This message was edited by mickd on 20 July 2002 at 05:20 AM.] |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
|
posted 20 July 2002 06:42 AM
profile
Mick, the fact that it suddenly freed up could indicate that there was a broken string end in it and it dislodged but is still in the changer but currently not causing a problem. I would feel much better if you could get it (or them) out of the changer because it could jam it up again.
Anyway I am happy that your problem is solved. When you are satisfied that there are no strings ends in the changer I would suggest you do what someone earlier told you and use a piece of light foam rubber in the changer to stop this from happening again.
Jerry |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
|
posted 20 July 2002 09:54 AM
profile
I once had a changer bind problem that was caused by one of the little nylon bushings rubbing against the finger separation plate. Tom Baker advised me to whittle a sliver off of it with a razor knife. I did, and it solved the problem.
I'm not sure if your problem is related or not, but it's something to watch for. I hadn't mentioned it until now because there seemed to be a consensus that you have a string end stuck in there somewhere.
Good luck, Mick. Keep us informed!------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 20 July 2002 at 09:57 AM.] |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 20 July 2002 12:58 PM
profile
well, 2 steps forward, 1 step back ..
I reset the axle rod back to where it was to begin with and, to my surprise, the problem reappeared again ! Once again, I pushed the axle in about 1/4 " and the finger was free again.
Sounds to me like this proves it isn't a broken string thats causing the problem and it can't be B0b's 'fat bushing syndrome' either.
But if it's corrosion/gunk on the axle then how come the problem doesnt move from string 4 to string 5 as I push the axle in ?
I can only push the axle in until it's flush with the side of the changer (about 1/4"). I do this using a clamp. To get it further than that I would have to tap it through with another axle-like bit of steel. I have tried to do that, but its difficult. The axle is stiff and I am sure I would have great trouble ever getting it back to the starting position if I were to go so far as free up sting 1 (let alone string 4).
I'm stuck
|
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
|
posted 20 July 2002 02:08 PM
profile
Seems to me a broken string end is indicated. When the axle is moved the string moves maybe even wedging between the axle and the finger. Did you try moving the axle to a point where the finger was free and try to find or remove a broken string?
What a mistery.
Jerry |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
|
posted 20 July 2002 03:39 PM
profile
I doubt that a string could get between the axle and the finger, he would see that. It sounds to me more like a groove worn into the changer shaft. One of Ricky Davis's tricks is to rotate the shaft 180 degrees to get away from the worn area. Any chance you can rotate the changer shaft Mick? |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 20 July 2002 04:43 PM
profile
Jerry - with the axle moved so that the finger is free, I still can't see a broken string end. Mind you, that doesn't mean there isn't one in there. Let's not forget, this whole thing started with a broken string..Jim - if there was a groove in the axle, wouldn't that cause a problem to the next string (string 5 in this case) as I push the shaft through ? That doesn't seem to happen. The control finger on string 5 still moves ok even when string 4 is also ok. I haven''t tried to rotate the shaft. I hate to think how much torque that would take. How would I go about it - what tool would I need ? I just talked the whole thing over with a friend in the pub. He wouldn't know a PSG if he fell over one, but he pointed out that my choice of '2nd shaft' (for tapping through) was not a good one. I took the only thing I could find that was the same diameter as the axle, namely a metal wood drill. Because the drill has a spiral cross section it won't transmit the hammer tapping force efficiently. So I will visit the local specialist hardware store and see if I can get a plain (unthreaded) shaft of the same diameter or smaller, then I can try again.
If I could bring myself to knock the axle the whole way through, then I could clean it up and also clean the finger bushings & then maybe it would slide back in easily.
Keep those ideas coming |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
|
posted 21 July 2002 03:31 AM
profile
Mick,
There is a saying: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
I detect from your postings that you are probably not very mechanically minded. My advice to you is do not carry on trying to fix this problem; take it to a competent steel mechanic before you damage it irrepairably. It horrified me when you mentioned the clamp, and tapping the shaft out indicates that a hammer is also employed. How do you know that there isn't a shoulder on the shaft, preventing it moving in the direction your hitting it?
I don't mean to put a downer on your attempts, but to me it really would be sensible to desist immediately, and take it to a reputable repairer. |
mickd
Member From: london,england
|
posted 21 July 2002 04:25 AM
profile
Richard - your deductions concerning my mechanical abilities are spot-on !
Its ok to tap the axle through though - I checked with Tom @ Sierra, and thats how he does it. I think I've almost reached the end of the line in terms of what I can do, so I will probably be giving Mr Wiggins a call soon (do you know him ?). But having got this far, it would give me a lot of satisfaction to get that axle rod out and to be able to lift the control fingers and maybe see a pesky string end in there[This message was edited by mickd on 21 July 2002 at 04:29 AM.] |
The Steel Guitar Forum
