quote:

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Buddy Emmons? Yes, he helped it get started and was very "instrumental" in it's development, and promotion. But if this guitar would sound bad, not even he could have saved it among the pros.

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I guess the only question I have left is, if Emmons really IS the very best, why don't ALL the pros play it? We all know how many great players don't or didn't. If it's so far and away superior to all others, are we to believe great players who play(ed) something other than Emmons are or were dummies? Run down a list of the all-time greatest steel players -- They didn't all play Emmons and I can't believe that the non-Emmons players are (or were) dummies who don't know they're playing inferior instruments. It only makes sense to conclude that Emmons is a great steel but not the only one.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 07 August 2002 at 02:36 PM.]

Please keep it civil, folks. I'm out of town and can't monitor everything this week.

That said, I think that my Williams sounds as good as any guitar of any brand I've ever heard.

Part of being a "standard" by which others are measure has to do with how many of a brand are manufactured. Many people have heard an Emmmons. Many players have played an Emmons. A Fessy or a Williams will never be a "standard", simply because there aren't that many of them in circulation.

EBay is the "standard" by which online auction sites are judged. Someone could make a better auction site (I'm sure it's been done), but it would inevitably be compared with EBay. That's just one example.

BTW, I wasn't aware this discussion revolved around what is BEST. That's pretty subjective. The STANDARD against which others are measured is a different thing. I would think of that as a known commodity of high quality that many people are familiar with. I think the Emmons brand and the push-pull design in particular qualify. But that's just my opinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 07 August 2002 at 06:58 PM.]

My old friend Nolan Harrison who has spent a life time (he's even older than me by quite a few years)in the muisc bussiness agrees with that.

He said they had many Martin Guitars they had to send back to the factory to get the necks repaired. And they were to stuburn to admit Gibson had better neck.

After Martin did put an adjusting rod in the neck, and Gene Autry wanted a bigger guitar,and they built the D 45 for him, then Martin took the number spot.

I had a Gibson J 45 when I was a young man and it was a fine guitar. Like George Strait sings, "Wish I Had That One Back".

It's kind of like saying Cindy Crawford is the beautiful woman and hers is the face by which all others are judged. Not to take anything away from Cindy but there are plenty of gorgeous women in the world (a single guy talkin' here) and Cindy C. takes nothing away from them by comparison.

A shallow analogy, perhaps but I think the point is clear. Recall all the wonderful tones you've heard on steel guitars other than Emmonses. That would be a long list, eh?It DOES NOT mean the Emmons sound ain't fantastic but there are other entrees on the menu.

I used to think the Les Paul sound was the electric guitar sound by which all others were judged--thought that for years. Then I began to hear great music played on Fender Strats and Teles and changed my mind. Now I hear wonderful stuff played on all sorts of guitars.

It's OK to say that on model is so good that others are imitations of that one. It's certainly true of Martin dreadnaught guitars, Fender Teles and the list goes on. It's true of Emmons guitars, yes. I have a ZumSteel and every time I look at an Emmons guitar I see whose the daddy of my guitar so to speak. It can't be denied, when something's great it gets imitated.

My original point is its sound is not the only wonderful sound. It happens that there are quit a few ex-Emmons guitar players. This doesn't mean they fell out of love with their Emmonses but found a very similar sound on something else that had some other great qualities to offer.
So both side are right--

When I was growing up, Chet Atkins was my idol for regular guitar, Jerry Byrd for non-pedal steel and Buddy Emmons for pedal steel. I'd stare at the Chet Atkins Gretches on the album covers for hours and grew to hate my cheap guitar, knew if I had a Chet Atkins Gretsch then I'd get that gorgeous tone. I finally got a brand-new Country Gentleman and you guessed it, I still didn't sound at all like Chet Atkins. I did sound much better but not like C.A. Got an old 6120 model later, the first C.A. model, and still didn't sound like him.

quote:

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I still didn't sound at all like Chet Atkins.

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problem is that in addition to the 7/64 wrench, we NEED everything else!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 08 August 2002 at 06:08 AM.]

I have an Emmons P-P.
It's cool!

It's plain to see at steel shows which brands are take offs on the Emmons Mica Body/Aluminum Neck/Single Coil P/U thing.

There are also several brands that don't follow in suit...
GFI, Fulawka, Sierra, and probably a few others.

Looking at the Sierra lineage for example... Olympic, Royalty, Stafford Elegance S14U, Crown, Artist, Session Series, it seems that they proceeded as if Emmons never even existed, let alone "Bench Mark".

From the Ask Buddy Site:

Re: Sierra Guitars
From: Buddy
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 08:18:02

Comments
The Sierra guitar has a soft but deep acoustic resonance that few other guitars have, so it's my favorite for the C6 tuning.

Whenever you remove a wing nut, there's an opportunity to drop it. And statistics show that 43% of the time, the wing nut will fall through the only crack in the stage, which is invariably where the steel guitarist sits. So your lost 29-cent wing nut renders your beautiful rosewood/maple inlaid fancy-schmancy Sho-Bud totally useless.

I generally refrain from making statements like "Brand X is the Best, and then there's the Rest" because although they roll off the tongue real easy-like, they're WAY too jingoistic and you're basically preaching to the choir while offending everyone else who happens to have a different opinion or guitar. These kind of pronouncements usually say much more about the guy saying them than they do about the instruments themselves. I know statements like this often come out of joy and pride in one's own possessions, but the message delivered can be skewed by the tone of the statement. Often what's said can come off like chest-thumping, like "I'm smart and you're not."

I recall one thread here a long time ago when a dear friend of mine, so enthused about getting a Sho-Bud and playing it through a Twin Reverb, stated that mica-covered guitars were "kitchen countertops" and "not real steel guitars," and that tube amplifiers were the only amps worth listening to. I told him I appreciated his enthusiasm for his new-to-him equipment and sound, but that he just told Buddy Emmons that he wasn't playing a real steel guitar and that his sound wasn't worth listening to.

Then there are the volunteered opinions coming strictly from left field that aren't even solicited, in response to but not even related to the questions being asked. One forumite used to talk about how the only steel guitar worth listening to is a "brand X with Bill Lawrence pickups," and that anyone who had anything else would sound like crap until they replaced what they were playing with the above-mentioned guitar. Well, okay... except that probably wasn't the answer that the original poster was seeking when he was asking about how to adjust a knee lever on his own excellent (but not "Brand X") guitar. These kinds of statements lead me to believe that the speaker probably can't play for beans, is justly insecure about his abilities, and feels he needs to reinforce his feelings by bragging about what he owns. The more guys that say "yeah, right on..." to those statements, the more he's happy, and he's looking for any opportunity to get the reinforcement.

And there's times when statements like that are simply not appropriate, and that's when they reflect negatively not only on the choices made by other players, many with higher credentials and skills than the speaker, but also their intelligence. Such as, "anyone who doesn't play (what I play) is an idiot," or "go ahead and play what guitar you've got if you want to sound like sh!t." Don't laugh... I've seen it right here.

I tend to make statements, when asked about my equipment choices and what I play, that reflect how I feel about my equipment as it relates to me, why I play certain brands and not others, and perhaps what advantages I've found in some brands and pitfalls I've found in others, usually from personal experiences, since I've been doing this silly game for 37 years.

I do have an enviable assortment of old Emmons guitars because I love the vibe I get from them and the tone they produce. They have their drawbacks, for sure. For the last month or so, I've been playing my Fessenden and I frankly love the ease of action, it's cosmetic beauty (rosewood and maple lacquer cabinet), it's stay-in-tuneness, and its great tone. I will be playing this guitar at ISGC, incidentally.

BTW, it has George Lewis pickups and it doesn't sound like crap.

Bottom line: it's about the player, not the instrument. A skilled carpenter can create a masterpiece with a handsaw and a cheap hammer, where a well-heeled hobbyist with a collection of Makita and Snap-On tools that would make a hardware store owner drool with envy could turn some high priced lumber into a high priced pile of sawdust and firewood.

POSTSCRIPT: Getting back to the original post, I'd agree with Tut Taylor about Gibson mandolins and banjos, at least for the majority of the time they were produced. Gibson used to advertise that "the least expensive Gibson was superior to the best of any other brand," and for a great length of time, that was true. Likewise, Martin flattops set the standard in tone for that style guitar. Gibson could NOT make the same claim for arch-top guitars, though they were the first to manufacture those instruments based on violin structural principles, because there quickly came other builders, such as Stromberg, Epiphone, and D'Angelico, with equally fine competitive products. The availability of comparable substitutes provided by competitive builders, such as with mandolins, resonator guitars, and pedal steels today, makes the "best and rest" statements hard to justify, IMHO.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 09 August 2002 at 07:59 AM.]

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

I recently played on a friend's CD in a fairly low-budget analog studio. Nothing special in the way of steel parts, either.

When I heard the final master, I could barely believe that was me on the CD. (I could tell it was me because of a couple of screwups that I remembered.)

Anyway, the steel TONE (not the playing) was incredible compared to what I normally hear out of my amp.

The guy on the mixer knew how to polish some raw stuff, that's for sure.

I AM NOT suggesting that the high-end pro players just plop something down and that the brilliant engineer makes someting beautiful out of it. I'm sure they give them a fantastic part full of great tone.

But I will guarantee you that it sees a fair amount of tweaking before it hits the final mix.

Therefore, I am not convinced that the exact tone that you hear on a recording is EVER achievable without the exact same signal processing. Live tone is another matter, of course.

I had better not play this CD for my current band, or they might fire me and hire the studio engineer to just play tapes at our gigs!

No disrespect to Martin guitars, but I had a buddy loan me his nice D28 while he was out of town for about 6 months(I need more friends like that!). This guitar was sweet sounding, and played beautifully. But as far as recording, a beat up old Hohner dreadnaught sounded way better. This might have had something to do w/ the dynamics and EQ of the tunes I was recording, but if I subscribed to the theory that "Martin is the best, I have the best, so I need to record w/ the best", my mix wouldnt have sounded as good as it did w/ the Hohner(The cheap German guitar that all other cheap german guitars are compared to!).

"Variety is truly the spice of life!" If we all sounded like Buddy, then Buddys sound would be vanilla, and that would suck!

"Necessity is the mother of invention!" Saw some high school age kids in a funk band the other day, they had the crappiest instruments(Squire Strat, Casio Keyboards, crate amps), but they sounded so great!! I assure you that they didnt sit in their garage and say, "man we would sound so much better if we had a real Hammond B3 and an american made strat. " That thought didnt even cross their mind, they just practiced and got pretty tight w/ what they had.

I am guilty of this philosophy as well. I cant count the times I was sitting on the can reading my Musicians Friend catalog, thinking " man if I only had this $1500 mic preamp, my recordings would sound soooooo much better". When I should have been honoring the latter part of the proverbial "S#@t or get off the pot". Think of all the recording time I wasted by sitting there jonesing for gear I couldnt afford.

I am officially rambling now! I will leave you w/ one definative statement.

BMW touring bikes, the one that all others are judged against!!!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Once we resolve this controversy maybe we can take on issues like peace in the Middle East, world hunger and the Barton Creek salamander.

Or how's this: have an open debate at Scottys convention with delegates from guitars "E," "Z," "F," and anybody else who wants to join in. Maybe we could get Bill O'Reilly to moderate.

I'll repeat myself: This is some fine writing by everyone and I am certainly enjoying it.

And I thought I was the only one that did that!

Alright. Let's have a show of hands. Who keeps their Musicians Friend and American Music Supply catalogs in the bathroom?

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[This message was edited by Lee Baucum on 10 August 2002 at 05:36 PM.]