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Author
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Topic: Emmons Guitars through Fender Amps
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Brian Herder
Member From: Philadelphia, Pa. USA
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posted 08 September 2002 09:41 PM
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I know that there are plenty of guys out there using Sho Buds and Fender amps, but how about Emmons players? Are any of you folks still playing through Fenders? What are some classic recordings that feature the Emmons/ Fender tone combination? |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 08 September 2002 09:57 PM
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"Emmons Guitar Incorporated" by Buddy Emmons, better known as "The Black Album," is a 1968 PP through a Fender Twin, according to legend.  ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association |
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
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posted 09 September 2002 02:44 AM
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Yeah but what does Buddy know about tone?  |
jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 09 September 2002 03:22 AM
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saw buddy in long island around 76, he played a rosewood D/10, p/p through a twin with stock speakers, no effects, what else is there to say, timeless tone, sounded great then, more than "acceptable" now |
Brian Herder
Member From: Philadelphia, Pa. USA
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posted 09 September 2002 07:19 AM
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Thanks guys..I think this topic has some potential food for thought (I'm curious, anyway) ...Ok then..So, if the "black album" made everyone want a P/P, and that is often held up as "the " tone, how come all the hardcore Emmons guys aren't using Twins?...they sure sound different than a Peavey. |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 09 September 2002 07:57 AM
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I've got an old original '65 Twin Reverb
that I use all the time with my Push/Pulls.
If I need the extra wattage, I can dail in
one of my Webb amps to sound really close
the old Fender tone.------------------
Push/Pull Video Clip |
Chris Schlotzhauer
Member From: Colleyville, Tx. USA
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posted 09 September 2002 08:08 AM
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I usually play through a NV-1000. But, on the road with the Derailers, I may get a NV-1000, NV-400, or a Twin. I have grown to really love the tone I get through the Twin, just straight into the amp. No ProFex or anything. Just Fender verb. Awsome tone. |
Dave Van Allen
Member From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 09 September 2002 10:18 AM
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quote:
I have grown to really love the tone I get through the Twin, just straight into the amp. No ProFex or anything. Just Fender verb. Awsome tone.
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Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 09 September 2002 11:16 AM
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I think my ole buddy Dave and I agree but may come 'at it' from two different anglesI think that Emmons guitars (particularly older ones) sound great through most amps . . . . . . and Dave seems to love the sound of most guitars through Fender tube amps. (I don't disagree) As was pointed out early in the thread, the tone benchmark for many, if not most, pedal steel players is the 'Black Album' --- hmmmm, old Emmons guitar through a Twin --- of course they had a piece of outboard equipment that was needed to push it over the top -- BUDDY EMMONS' HANDS. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro |
Darvin Willhoite
Member From: Leander, Tx. USA
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posted 09 September 2002 12:39 PM
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I get a really good sound with my '75 P/P into an old Twin with a 15" JBL, and a little delay from a Boss DD5. IMHO, you can't beat those Fender reverbs.------------------
Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording
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Brian Herder
Member From: Philadelphia, Pa. USA
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posted 09 September 2002 01:43 PM
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Jay, what did you use to record your video clip?
That tone seems OK..  |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 09 September 2002 07:55 PM
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Larry-I will sure echo your post on amps and guitars. I will say, that I had a PP Emmons and Fender Twin with 2 JBL D120's in 1972 in Phoenix and that is just about the best tone I ever got.It just got too heavy to carry around. A little later, I had a Fender Showman head with a 15 inch D 130 JBL cabinet, and it was just about as good. But that cabinet was big.....al |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 09 September 2002 11:33 PM
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I'm playing a '69 D-10 p/p, a '66 S-10 p/p, and an '84 S-10 p/p thru either a pair of '60s Fender Deluxe Reverbs with JBL D120s OR the main rig is a '69 Twin Reverb with a 15" Black Widow. The Fender amps cant be beat. The EQ, the reverb, the power section, that drive when you push them, just perfect. Even though my three guitars sound different from eachother, all three of them Emmonses just love those Fender amps, it's the best tone I've ever achieved. At one rehearsal space I play thru a '71 Fender Pro Reverb with stock fender speakers and that too sounds fantastic. Brad Sarno
St. Louis
'66,'69,'84 Emmons p/p |
Bruce Bouton
Member From: Nash. Tn USA
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posted 09 September 2002 11:36 PM
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What does Dave Allen know! I've offered time and time again to take that old Fender off his hands and give him a new amp but he just won't listen.
BB |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 10 September 2002 01:00 AM
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quote:
how come all the hardcore Emmons guys aren't using Twins?
'Cause they think "the sound" is in the guitar. Of course, the fact that it costs a couple hundred dollars to re-tube a Twin every year or so might have something to do with it too! |
Chris Forbes
Member From: Beltsville, MD, USA
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posted 10 September 2002 04:00 AM
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Dave, thanks for not giving me crap when you played my Sho-Bud through the N-1000 I had set up. |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 10 September 2002 07:43 AM
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Brian,
Yep, that's the old Twin in the clip.
The audio was recorded thru the
little mic on the camcorder. |
Brian Herder
Member From: Philadelphia, Pa. USA
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posted 10 September 2002 04:19 PM
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Ok...now the reason I was wondering about this in the first place is, an Emmons seems to have a midrange that is accentuated by the Fender amp, coming off very shrill and blaring...when I have tried it, anyway. I know that others (the greats, and us common folk as well) use/used this combination before with obviously great results. Has anyone else experienced this middy thing? For what it's worth, I play an old Pro ll through a Fender. I started this thread because I was talking to a friend about it..we have been around, and around on his topic for years..he mostly plays Emmons P/P and a Peavey. |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 10 September 2002 04:46 PM
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No (though I'm not saying that either of us is right), I can't classify the Emmons as having a "lot of mids"! Sho~bud...maybe, MSA...definitely. Emmons, to my ears, is crystal highs, less than moderate mid-range, and thin (but tight) bass. Want an Emmons to sound good through an old T/R? Set the bass at 8-10, mids at 2, and treble at 3. NOW you're in the ball park! ('Course, you gotta run the volume up with these settings.) The mid control in the old Fenders (as well as most other amps!) is way overused. If you want a "full sound", you gotta keep the mids down! |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 10 September 2002 04:55 PM
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quote:
If you want a "full sound", you gotta keep the mids down!
Exactly. ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association |
Cartwright Thompson
Member From: Portland, Maine, USA
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posted 11 September 2002 02:53 AM
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I love the sound of my '66 twin and my Emmons. But of course if you had somebody like Buddy or Hal or Tommy, gave them a Maverick and a Heathkit amp, they would all sound great.
I also just re-tubed the entire amp for the sum of $85. O.K., I didn't change the vibrato tube-why bother? |
jim milewski
Member From: stowe, vermont
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posted 11 September 2002 03:37 AM
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jacking up the mids makes a good amp sound cheap...but, doesn't the twin like other tube amps have a natural mid scoop making it necesary to put the mids back in, it adds meat to the plain strings and helps the guitar cut through the band rather than getting lost in the sound, after reading the post I plugged my push/pull into my twin, which I haven't done in a long time, I'm glad I own a twin and glad this post was started |
Dave Van Allen
Member From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 11 September 2002 03:46 AM
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quote:
thanks for not giving me crap when you played my Sho-Bud through the N-1000 I had set up.
Hey Chris, I am just a Fender addict, not an "amp Nazi". Besides when someone is gracious enough to let me sit in using all their stuff (including picks!) why should I antagonize 'em? You rig sounded fine, once we got the cords plugged in the right holes
[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 11 September 2002 at 03:49 AM.] |
Chris Forbes
Member From: Beltsville, MD, USA
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posted 11 September 2002 04:02 AM
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Mr. Van Allen, you forgot to leave some of your licks on the guitar when you left. I expect you to leave at least one cool lick on there if you play it again!!!! But thanks for the tip on Buckeroo. |
Frank Estes
Member From: Huntsville, AL
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posted 11 September 2002 08:37 AM
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I really like Fender stuff. Back when I first started playing steel, I had a 70s silver face Fender Twin with two JBLs. I never could get the tone I wanted out my Sho~Bud LDG, but that probably had more to do with my ear at the time and not knowing how to EQ it properly. It was too bright. I ended up trading it toward a new Session 500 which is at least as heavy, but it sounded much, much better!I don't like having to deal with the tubes, maintenance-wise, but there is no doubt you can get a real "warm" or "lively" sound with tube amps. I am really impressed with Fender's DSP technology. It makes them sound real close to a tube amp IMHO. I bought a 2001 Fender Princeton 65 to play guitar through and it sounds superb! At 28 lbs and 65 watts, it is quite a performer. It has a 12" Eminence (sp?) speaker. Anyway, the Princeton 65 does not provide enough quality bottom for steel guitar. I played my Emmons push-pull through it at one of our club meetings and it did a fair job without having enough lows. A formica all-pull would have sounded much too harsh through it. Editorial comment: The fact that this amp almost gets the job done with a push-pull is a tribute to the Emmons push-pull inherent monster tone! When I was playing out with our local band (no clubs or such) and I was doing double duty of steel and lead, I would play steel through the Nashville 400 and lead through the Fender Princeton because I needed the separate EQ and I could not find a Peavey Vegas 400 for sale. I finally have a Vegas 400 at the church, since I do double duty there. The Princeton 65 has a line out and I can either run that pre-amp out to the board, have it miked, or run the line out to input #2 on the Nashville 400 if they are short of mikes or slots on the board. Going to the Nashville 400 helps to make up the lack of power the Princeton has for those venues where one needs a lot of volume and cannot go direct. Again, that Fender DSP technology is very cool. I have played through a Fender Stage 160 (160 watts) at our local music store and it sounds as good as a Fender tube amp to me, at least close enough without the noise and having to deal with tube replacement. Oh yeah, the Fender Stage 160 has more power and is considerably lighter than a Twin! [This message was edited by Frank Estes on 11 September 2002 at 08:49 AM.] |
John Russell
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 11 September 2002 06:16 PM
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You can buy that Fender SS head separately. The Stage 160 is the same amp as the Stage 100, the 100 has only 1 12" speaker.As I recall, the old Pro Reverb was a 50 watt (all tube) amp with 2 12" speakers. Almost a Twin but cheaper to re-tube. It was (is) capable of nearly the output of the Twin. The Twin would have to be rated at 500 watts to double the loudness in dB. So it's a nice compromise if you don't like the weight and maintenance cost of the Twin. My current favorite is the Hot Rod Deluxe. Very portable, great tone.
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Eddie Malray
Member From: South Fulton, Tennessee, USA
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posted 11 September 2002 06:55 PM
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I twisted the knobs off a Peavey Session 400 for seventeen years looking for a sweet mellow tone. I finally found it in Fender Twin. I play a 1980 Emmons D10 with no effects. Nothing on this earth sounds better to me. |
Kenny Foy
Member From: Lynnville, KY, USA
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posted 12 September 2002 09:38 AM
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Eddie, The nite you plugged into my sessions 400, from your twin reverb, it didn't take but about 4 good licks to pull the plug on it and plug back into your twin. The look on your face was priceless. I'm laughin as I type this. I'm leanin your way on thinkin. Just hate to plug into the Fender because I'll probably be sellin and buyin. |
Wayne Cox
Member From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA
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posted 12 September 2002 07:46 PM
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If someone has already brought this up,I missed it,so here goes. In my earlier days I,like so many, played through a Fender Twin. Then I sold it and bought another amp, and then another. Eventually I figured out that I needed another Twin,so I bought one.
The first one was the old black-faced model,the second was the silver-faced model. You guessed it! I quickly discovered that all Fender Twins are not created equal! Two more things I've learned...A good tube amp will keep going under low voltage conditions,long after a solid state amp has bit the dust. Finally, IMHO(based on setting up recorders off stage)a Twin can sound fantastic to the player on stage, but the sound has a tendency to drop off,radically, not far off the stage. All in all they are really good amps but I'll probably stick with my Evans. |
Ray Rasmussen
Member From: Santa Rosa, CA,
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posted 12 September 2002 09:22 PM
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Didn't Buddy Cage play an Emmons through a twin when he was with NRPS?
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Chris Forbes
Member From: Beltsville, MD, USA
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posted 13 September 2002 03:41 AM
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You are correct Ray, he played an Emmons until some jerk ripped it off. That's when he got that custom beast made and played that until some jerk ripped it off. Not sure what he has now. He always played through Fender amps, he hates everything Peavey ever made for steel.[This message was edited by Chris Forbes on 13 September 2002 at 03:42 AM.] |
Pat Coyne
Member From: "Probably Somewhere in Texas"
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posted 13 September 2002 07:08 AM
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Bruce Bouton....didn't you record some of the Skaggs stuff with an Emmons/Fender combo? Do you remember specifically what songs they might have been?------------------
"basso profundo" |
Dave Van Allen
Member From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 13 September 2002 01:39 PM
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quote:
I've offered time and time again to take that old Fender off his hands and give him a new amp but he just won't listen.
(prolly 'cause sittin' in front of it has damaged my hearing ) C'mon Bruce, you don't really want that ratty old thing. It smells like a smoky bar when it get hot. It's as heavy as a Volkswagen. Why, it doesn't even have the original speakers in it! Besides, it ain't fer sale or trade But you can play thru it next time we get together if'n you want. dva
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Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 14 September 2002 02:14 PM
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quote:
As I recall, the old Pro Reverb was a 50 watt (all tube) amp with 2 12" speakers. Almost a Twin but cheaper to re-tube. It was (is) capable of nearly the output of the Twin. The Twin would have to be rated at 500 watts to double the loudness in dB.
Well, the old B/F Pro-Reverb was good for about 35-40 watts, and the B/F Twins would give 70-80. Pushing them past that would bring them into clipping (distortion). And, while it's true Twin would have to have ten times the power to sound twice as loud, the real benefit of the Twin over the Pro was the added bottom end, and the cleaner high-level sound! Twice the power won't make you twice as loud, but it can give you almost twice the bass! |
Bruce Bouton
Member From: Nash. Tn USA
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posted 14 September 2002 07:18 PM
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Back in 79 or 80 I did my first master session with Rick Skaggs. We were working on the "Waiting for the Sun to Shine" album. During the sessions I used an Emmons Push Pull with Bill Lawrence pickups and a session 400. Somewhere along the way my peavey blew up. There was a black faced twin with a jbl sitting in the studio so I plugged into that. As I recall ,I cut "Crying My Heart Out Over You" with that amp.Ten or twelve years later I was able to get a hold of that amp. I've used it alot. In fact it's the only amp I usedon the last Garth album.I used a Franklin and an Emmons through that amp. Dave Van Allen has by far the best sounding Fender I've ever heard but it is extremely ugly.
BB |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 18 September 2002 12:12 PM
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I'm using a '69 Twin Reverb with a 15" Peavey Black Widow speaker. The amp has been recapped with real nice paper-in-oil capacitors. The fun thing was changing the "slope" resistor in the tone circuit so that the midrange control frequency now centers around 800Hz and not at the stock 500Hz. Steels seem to honk at or around 800Hz. As a stagehand at the ISGC I noticed that most everyone who used the Peavey 1000 amps had their midrange set at or near 800Hz and cut about 3-6 dB. Bill Lawrence has me thinking that it's a function of the pickups that they generate more power in that band than anywhere else. So with the midrange control on the Twin fixed at around 800 Hz I can really dial in my tone. This Twin sounds great with a Tele as well. Brad Sarno
St. Louis, MO |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 18 September 2002 03:08 PM
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I would've thought changing the value
of the capacitor feeding the midrange
control (the .047) would change the
frequency affected by that control. |
Mike Bagwell
Member From: Greenville, SC, USA
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posted 18 September 2002 04:24 PM
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Brad,What value of the resistor did you settle on? Thanks
Mike |
Dave Van Allen
Member From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 18 September 2002 07:31 PM
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quote:
Van Allen has by far the best sounding Fender I've ever heard but it is extremely ugly
BB must have my Twin confused with my Vibrolux... now THAT"S UGLY!!!  but It's nice to have my feelings about the Twin confirmed by an independant party |
Brad Sarno
Member From: St. Louis, MO USA
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posted 19 September 2002 01:13 AM
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Mike, I've gotta look for my papers or peek inside the amp to get the value. As I understand it, changing the cap value may effect the Q and some other things but since the circuit is a "tone stack" design, it's the slope resistor that effects the crossover point, sort of. Anyway its a cool thing when a Twin midrange sits right around 800 Hz. Very useful on steel. I'll keep diggin for the value. In fact I may have posted it months ago. Brad Sarno
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