I'm thinking more about producing a video of the HUF to offer proof of its reliability. In the meantime, I'll be checking out a number of crafts personnel, who could best serve my interests. Easy on the eyes is the desired end result, with a more relaxed style of playing the steel guitar. Thanks Michael for your offer. Both "Lucky 7", and the HUF will be treated to modifications, that will enhance their adaptability to modern steel guitars.

I'm sure some people have learned to play steel blind. Plenty of people play piano blind. But the top concert pianists watch the keys closely when they play. So do the top steel players (although they might be able to play some with their eyes closed if they wanted to). I think we all make the final adjustment by ear and vibrato. But the eyes help us get in the right vicinity quickly. Your HUP will make that even easier.

I suggest you make some HUPs with clear plexiglass. Steel lovers love to watch the bar of a good steel player. We already sit down way in the back while six-stringers dance around out front. Let's not put another barrier between the steel player and the audience.

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But the top concert pianists watch the keys closely when they play. So do the top steel players (although they might be able to play some with their eyes closed if they wanted to). I think we all make the final adjustment by ear and vibrato. But the eyes help us get in the right vicinity quickly. Your HUP will make that even easier.

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I have to say I strongly disagree. If a top concert pianist appears to be looking at the piano keys for reference...he/she just appears that way...in actuality they could play it blind folded...they know the pieces they're playing better than you can imagine.

I've known a few Top Steel Players...I would argue they look at the fretboard more because they prefer to look at their Steel over staring at other perfomers on stage or into space.

Take it or leave it, that's my opinion...learning the fretboard is a big part of learning to play the steel but at some point you've got to move beyond that. There should be a point where you are no longer LEARNING the fretboard but just KNOW it...when you know it you don't need to see it.

So, like I said earlier in this thread...the HUF could be a good learning tool for the beginner but it should not be a crutch and should be designed to be easily removed once you've gotten past using your eyes to play.

If you use your eyes to play you'll always be one step behind, for one thing your brain has to work harder.

The first guitars had no fret markers...Violins, Violas, Cellos, Basses still don't have them...how did Stravinsky know what to play? hehe

P.S.
FWIW...I played classical piano from the age of 5 before getting bit by the Jazz bug in my teens...I often look at my piano keys when I don't have anything to look at but NEVER to determine what to play...I think this should be every musicians goal...to know their instrument well enough to play it automatically by feel. I also play Dobro and guitar using the same approach.

[This message was edited by Stephen LeBlanc on 25 October 2002 at 09:22 AM.]

I would suspect that the majority of the readers of this Forum are not in the category of "Top Steel Players".

"but it should not be a crutch and should be designed to be easily removed once you've gotten past using your eyes to play."

I think the word crutch may be a bit harsh. Once again, I think there are many, many weekend warriors and bedroom pickers on this Forum who will never achieve a level of proficiency whereby one would no longer need any visual aids while playing. (I am right at the top of the list in that category!)

Perhaps the steel guitar builders should start building their guitars with removable fretboards.

Reviewing your past reply has prompted me to respond to your suggestion to make the hands visible. In actuality the player's hands rest far above the level of HUF. The audience has a clear view of his bar hand, and right hand attack at all times.

I had to put down this erroneous notion, before it becomes an accepted hang up among those who find the HUF interesting.

First, I admire ANYONE with the ability to see beyond "what is here"......and further, for their creativity and motiviation that continues to drive them to a successful conclusion of their dream.

More power to you and your dream, in all sincerity.

From many years of experience......I would strongly urge you to solicit the most knowledgeable experts in our land to view, examine and "play" your invention.

Whence that is done, use "THEIR words of praise" for the promotion of your invention and not merely your own. Remember what people told Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, the Wright Brothers, Wm. Piper, Sr. and William P. Lear when they first pitched their "invention"? Even though these great inventors KNEW they were right........few believed or supported their initial views. That often is the reason "personalities" are used to promote and help sell virtually everything from entertainment to T.P. The public listens to famous people heaping praise while turning a deaf ear toward a true inventive expert stating facts. When that occurs, the inventor often ends up in a defensive stance.........

I believe Bobby Lee, Stephen and Mr. Hoffner each made sound responses to your own comments. They were non inflamatory and were direct to the point. I somewhat share their views.

ANYONE that can say they honestly "BELIEVE" that bar slants are reserved merely "for show" and in essence, "went down the road......." with the advent of the pedal steel guitar.......I truly believe is badly misinformed. IMHO. And who really cares about Buddy Emmons ability to SPIN his BAR while playing a tune. So WHAT! A trick is a trick! I admire him and all he has done musically and for the steel guitar.

Would you really have the @#*~ to personally tell the Jerry Byrd's, Billy Robinsons, Kayton Roberts, Howard Whites, LLOYD GREENS, and Jeff Newmans, and others, etc., of this world, that with the introduction of pedals, their style, technique, skill and masterful playing abilities are "out of date", contribute nothing to music, and/or were
"a waste of time"???

Are you merely trying to sell a product here via the Forum.......or, are you attempting to demonstrate to all of us with many years of forward and reverse slanting behind us, that "WE" collectively don't know what we're talking about but you do? Now, I ask you........

I've played pedals since 1956. When, might I ask did you start playing pedals?

I slant as required/desired on Bigsby, Emmons and/or Rickenbacher....and will continue to do so.

I learned to visually sight and position my bar accurately on the guitar during my very first year of instruction.

Keep in mind that the fretboard in
the photo is merely a prototype. I fully intend to produce a fretboard that will be one of quality, and fine workmanship. What you see in the photo, are "tree" positions for relevant chords.

I will respond to your reply, and I will do so soon. For now, I'll just say that bar slants are a means to quell a raging determination to overcome, and defeat the difficulties involved in
reaching for melody lines. Trading bar slants for string pulls does not fare well with me.

I've used pedals for over a quarter century. My 4 & 5 string grab melody lines would not be possible using bar slants. That is the style played on my homemade steel guitar.

There was never a dull moment using pedals, since Bud Isaacs introduced the split pedals with a song called, "Slowly I'm Falling More In Love With You". When steel guitarists who played "straight" steel heard those changes, they converged on him to inquire about the new sound. I would have to look into the facts, by making inquiries, but there is no need to go there. My musical pleasures are derived from the same sources as those of yours. Jerry Byrd's "Among My Souvenirs" is a good example of music that I enjoy. I actually have a great deal of respect for Dobroists, and lap steel players. I attended the Canaan Valley Music Festival about 20 years ago. It was there that I met a Dobroist with the name Johnny on his guitar strap. I sat in with him, during his set. He was unbelievable, and I
marvelled at his abilities. I would imagine he could have torn the place up playing lap steel.

BOb, you have presented a very strong argument by pointing out the merits of straight steel, and bar slants. I'm in agreement with you, and I thank you for the informative reply.

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I'm against it. What is it?- Archie Bunker

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Maybe Bill is on to something, maybe not. For all we know he might be a mechanical genius whose ideas will totally revolutionize our instrument and prove to be the most significant improvement since the inception of pedals. He might also be a total kook whose ideas are utterly worthless. The bottom line is that we don't know.

I suggest that 1- Bill you build a prototype and bring it to the convention and rent a booth so we can all try out your inventions and see for ourselves how they work and whether or not they improve the instrument. and 2- the rest of us reserve judgement on them until we've had some hands (and feet) on experience with them.

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My gear: A piece of wood with some wires attached

Please do me a favor, and go back to where you quoted me ever saying that the HUF was designed for beginners. Nothing could be further from the truth. Someone else mentioned that in one or two of their replies. I became very annoyed with the comment, but I refused to respond because I'd hoped that others would quickly read through that bit of nonsense. Instead you seem to have a penchant to proliferate someone elses view, which leaves me no other choice, other than set the record straight. The truth of the matter is that beginners never once entered my mind while developing the HUF. It is designed for players who wish to advance their technique by knowing precisely where to place the bar at all times. Beginners may progress to this advanced state of the art fretboard when they have paid their dues, (as I have done). I'll repeat my words one more time, never did I say that the HUF was designed for beginners.

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It is designed for players who wish to advance their technique by knowing precisely where to place the bar at all times.

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Sorry to chime in again ...but I'll help clear up who brought up the word 'beginners'. My advice to you, take it or leave it, is to focus your design on aiding beginners...intermediate-pro players shouldn't need a fretboard to know precisely where to put their bar.

Again, this is just MY advice based on MY experience...my thoughts here are not aimed at insulting anyone...you should stop taking them that way.

Regardless, I love the spirit of invention...my brother is always tinkering to make things better or creating completely new designs for things. My Dad spent hours customizing his Pedal Steels. I admire what you're doing...I just happen to think some of your energy is being misplaced.

No Johan, it does not resemble the (HUF). The fretboard is no longer needed in the (HUF) application. I really need a clear close-up photo to make a determination that would reveal any similarities. Thank you for noticing the unusual photo, and for sending it with your reply.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 09 November 2002 at 12:07 PM.]

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Let's not put another barrier between the steel player and the audience.

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Good point, I think, and--no offense or disparagement given--at the same time, the thought occurred to me about how a mirror in front of the fretboard might serve the purpose (such as on fine pianos). But then, my next thought was to bet you had tried it as a preliminary testbed!

[This message was edited by James Cann on 23 January 2006 at 08:31 AM.]

I started on violin and piano, later moving to woodwinds, primarily saxophone, which I studied at college. For the last three years have been playing dobro, mostly in bluegrass situations, and backing your standard sensitive singer/songwriter type. I also play guitar, mandolin, and bass. Now, I am adding the pedal steel to my long list of stuff that I will never be able to practise enough.

I'm sure there are some, even plenty of people that can play pedal steel well without sight. That is amazing, but there are a great number of different ways in which people learn. I think that this should be factored into this sort of situation.

For those that don't learn at all visually, the answer seems fairly simple...don't attach a visual learning aid such as an upright fretboard to your instrument.

I think it is good that someone feels that he need not be bound by history to learn only in a way that others before have done. His own needs spawned his creativity, and he has shared. I appreciate that. And as to other members contention about other points he has made, well, I imagine all of us can become rather defensive when our imagination, creativity, and skills are challenged. Please give a guy a break. I hope you'll do the same for me too. He's proud of what he has made. He didn't post his picture to say that anyone else is doing anything wrong; but we have tried to tell him that it is wrong because it is not the right thing for us. Different strokes, no?

I have held an odd assortment of day jobs in my life. I have often wound up teaching things to people, and from my experience I can tell you that there are people who can only learn to dance by having moves explained to them aurally. There are people who can only learn to throw punches properly if you actually put your hands on them and mold them like clay. There are also some who can learn everything you do just by watching, but will stand by dumbfounded if you describe it to them.

There are also a lot of people who are better than me at any of the things that I do, but have greater difficulty teaching those things because they don't know why they are able to do the things they do.

The use of visual references I, personally, find more useful on steel guitar than on any other instrument I have spent any time on. I think the reason is largely because of the lack of direct contact with the strings. Sure, the trailing fingers and blocking palm are in contact at most times, but it is the bar and finger picks that come into contact with the actual ringing strings.

On the piano, guitar etc, there are set points to place your fingers at which you don't actually need to be 100% accurate to be in tune or at least relatively close.

On fretted instruments, you can feel the relationships between the frets as your fingers move up and down the board.

With keyboards you can feel the relationships between the offset white and black keys. You can feel the edge of the next key over from one you have depressed, all of the keys are the same size, and lay in the same order, etc.

On any string instrument that has you push the string all of the way down to a fingerboard, you can feel the string you are playing. Behind a steel bar, you can't tell if you've picked the wrong string from how it feels, you need to hear or see...or both.

I'm not saying any one instrument is harder than another, as they all have their ups and downs (ever try playing something fast on the trombone? or attempt a glissando on the mandolin?). I am however saying that from my experience it is harder to make large, fast jumps on steel with accurate intonation, without the use of visual markers.

I can't imagine doing any gig in which I could always hear myself clearly. Perhaps it is because I have always played acoustic instruments, often with electric instruments in the band. There are times, mostly mercifully brief, when one has to use any weapon in one's arsenal to get through a situation when you are unfortunately deaf to your own playing.

I think it might be an interesting experiment to cover one's fretboard, and try to play a set of relatively complicated changes without any visual markers whatsoever. I think one might really find out how much one does play with the aid of sight.

Alright, enough from me. Thanks for the space to write.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am no longer pursuing my ambitions relating to the development of new ideas. Poor health has vastly decreased my energy. I want to wish you the best of luck in your steel guitar practice sessions.

Bill

I just noticed that this thread started in 2002!

I have now realised that I was getting into material that was largely in response to posts from that time.

I apologise. I will try to keep it all a little more current from now on.

My best regards and good luck with your health of course.