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D 10 Thomas with 8&6, '61'D-10 Sho-Bud 8&3
S12 Knight 4&4
Nashville 400 and Profex II
81' Fender Twin JBL's
Asleep at the Steel

A person's tuning is really going to be subject to the "amount of cabinet drop" their guitar has (another topic rehashed over and over). For example, a guitar like the LeGrande III with the counterforce system (or any guitar "without cabinet drop") is not going to be as affected by cabinet drop like some other brand might be. It can pretty much be tuned "pedals up" or "pedals down" to reference 440.
On the other hand, a guitar with cabinet drop could be tuned to 440 "pedals up", but when the pedals are applied cabinet drop will affect all the "open" strings. Granted, the pitch of the strings being changed by the pedals can be adjusted back to the 440 reference, but the open strings will be flat. The alternative in that case might be to tune the open ("pedals up") tuning to a reference higher than 440 (441, 442,etc, depending on the amount of cabinet drop) so that the "pedals down" tuning will then reference at 440. Like I said, my LeGrande III can be tuned to 440 both "pedals up and pedals down". My push/pull, on the other hand, has a bit of cabinet drop, so I tune it to reference 440 pedals down, but 441 or 442 for pedals up to make up for the cabinet drop. I prefer to tune the "pedals down" pitch to 440 since this is in reference to "A" chord (since there is now such thing as "E 440") and seems to sound better with any "open A" type playing I might do. I find that I play "pedals down" much more often than "pedals up". And, playing with E being sharp of 440 doesn't seem as offensive as playing with A being flat to 440. The amount of cabinet drop affects all this and just how close to 440 you can get.

Now Allen, if your question is that of who tunes straight up and who doesn't (whether or not they tune their "thirds" flat to 440, or in other words, "tuning the beats out"), that is a completely different question and one that has been "rehashed" over and over on this forum, ad infinitum!

Now, get ready for the debate, once again!

Again,like someone else said,the axe may have a lot to do with how we may need to tune certain strings.

quote:

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This is not meant to start another tuning war JI v ET. I`m just interested in how many of you guys out there tune straight 440 or very close?

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

However, Paul Franklin says that's how he tunes, and that most other top players he knows do the same. It's the old fashioned way that is time tested. I think for some reason you are getting a lopsided response from tempered tuners here.

But on the C6 neck, I think many people tune all strings straight up 440, because the intervals used create too many tempering problems otherwise.

By the way, I find it helpful to tune only the Es in the open position (on E9). Everything else (including pedals and knees) I tune barred at the C fret. The reason is that the strings are now tuned to my normal bar pressure toward the middle of the playing area. I have found that perfect tuning in the open position will not be perfect with the bar, because of bar pressure and the way the different guaged strings react to bar pressure.

For a little perspective, symphony orchestras tune only their A to straight up 440. Everything else is tuned to the ear (Just Intonation). There are normally no tempered instruments played in an orchestra. All fretless stringed instruments and horns have variable pitch that is played by ear to JI. Singers sing to JI (okay, not all, but we wish they all did). Only pianos, fretted stringed instruments, and other fixed pitch instruments (vibes, harps, accordions, etc.) have to tune to the tempered scale. This is not considered a good thing, but is a workable compromise, and that is why they are only wheeled onto the orchestra stage for special numbers. If you are playing along with a tempered instrument, you may need to tune even tempered or close.

Guitar bands tune mostly straight up 440; however, a lot of guitar players tweak their tuning a little for different keys, typically playing the root chord and flatting the thirds a little to sound sweeter.

The steel guitar is a fretless instrument with variable pitch that is played by ear (at least on held notes where there is time to adjust), so to some extent it doesn't matter whether you tune tempered or JI, because where it counts you will automatically adjust your pitch (we hope) to sound good with the vocal or lead instrument or bass, whatever is dominant at the moment. However, the intervals played as you chord may create a tempered versus JI dilemma. Thus, the straight major chords typically played on E9 will sound sweeter with JI, but minors, 7ths, 6ths, diminished, etc. (chords typically played on C6) may sound better tempered.

The reason this all causes such confusion and heated argument is because there is no one correct answer for all situations. It matters what type of music you are playing and what other instruments you are playing with. Maybe we should all take a cue from symphony orchestras and tweak to JI when we can, and tune tempered when we have to.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 29 December 2002 at 10:31 PM.]

Note this experience. I once did a session for an Hawaiian style ad here in Australia. I was called back to put an ending slide with the tonic and third up an octave. The engineer picked that I tuned the 3rd flat and made me tune up to "440" ... so maybe I'm not so crazy or tone deaf.

Another anecdote is that John Ely, the great non-pedal Hawaiian music convert, gave up trying to play Eharp (tuned C# E F F# G G# A B C# E) because he couldn't use harmonics to tune it. I play this tuning and tune everything to 440 ... the result is a tuning that gives me most of those big jazz chords without the bother of lugging a heavy pedal steel around ... again everything sounds sweet.

I'm with you, Buck. I tried 440, but didn't like it. Made the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

Neil,
Which Newman charts? The ones on his website sharp the E's (442.5).

Tom,
I'd agree that sinus congestion or blowing the nose could affect the frequency spectrum one hears, but I'd have to be convinced that it affects your perception of the PITCH of the note, which is the key measurement for tuning.

FWIW
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 06 January 2003 at 12:25 PM.]

Neil,
The problem I have with tuning the E note to 440 (rather than sharper, like somewhere between 441 and 443, depending on the guitar) is that certain combinations -- like the E to F knee lever change -- is WAAAAAAAY FLAT. Look at the Newman chart -- the current one shows F at 435.5, which is 18 cents flat.
(just a reminder, a cent is 1/100 of the distance from one fret to the next)
That's pretty far from the note the piano player will come up with for an F.

NOW, the important part:
The 435.5 value is taken from the NEW Newman chart, which tunes the E's sharp (442.5). If, as you suggest, the earlier ones were based on 440 for the E's, the F WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE 433. THIS IS 28 CENTS (almost 1/3 of a fret) FLAT OF THE NOTE AN EQUALLY TEMPERED KEYBOARD WOULD PLAY. Yeah, you can tune such that the A+F position C#Maj chord is in tune and fudge it with the bar to be closer, but as soon as you play that open F note along with the piano, you will understand why a lot of folks try to approach 440 as close as possible.

What it boils down to is that there are certain combinations that are way off when you tune all the beats out of the open, A+B, and A+F positions. Also, when you add the 9th, 7th, 2nd, and 1st strings, some really interesting (and not always pleasant) things can happen.

Just my 2 cents (pun intended).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 07 January 2003 at 07:54 AM.]

For those of you that think you can use your eyes to tune and sound good walk over to that electric piano and check a few low notes and then middle notes and then high notes. A piano is not 440. Then check the different individual notes in a guitar chord. Its freakin hopeless !

Then throw out your electronic tuner and train your ears and hands to make it sound good.

The point is to bring the E's up some so you don't have to flat the G#s so much. Same holds true with the C#s and Fs.