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if I were to try to nail the Joe Pass style

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he is choosing very specific 3-5 voice harmonies in his chording

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First of all, if by describing a style, you're saying that he picks specific 3-5 note voicings, this is something that many jazz guitarists do. It's also something you can readily do on C6 with 3 picks, the right technique, and the right tuning (no middle-D). If you are referring to specific kinds of harmonies, then I have no idea what you are talking about since you refuse to give any specifics of what it is about his style that can not be played on C6. Also, his style relies heavily on motion supplied by the bass movement, something that can be done on C6 obviously.

This discouse isn't going anywhere. I can't keep refuting simple, generic statements without evidence, only to be answered with more generic statements. Simplistic, unsupported statements are easy to make. Refuting them is hard because I gotta do too much thinking. I'll say this, I wouldn't want to play Joe Pass harmonies or any kind of traditional jazz harmonies with the middle-D. You take a common sense tuning, and stick an uncommon-sense note in there so that you don't have to move the bar two frets, and then rationalize it/justify it by saying you can get "modern" voicings. I'm done. The middle-D is a bad idea. Bye.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 07 January 2003 at 11:40 AM.]

If you could point me to an example of a steel player doing something like this I would be very impressed. I don't think it's there on a standard C6th, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

Notice that Joe never plays more than 4 strings at a time, which lends support to the argument that you don't need to strum to play jazz.......

1_________________________________________________________________________________
2_________________________________________________________________________________
3_____9___________13L_________________________________________________________2___
4__________________________________________________________________5(7____________
5_____9_________________________8___________9___________8(5________5__________2___
6_____9(6_________13____________8(6_________9(6_________8__________5______________
7_________________13_______________________________________________5__________2(8_
8_____9_________________________8___________9___________8_________________________
9_________________13(5____________________________________________________________
10___M1_C1________M1_C2________M2_C3_______M2_C4_______M2_C5_______M5_C1____M9_C1_

You are exposing my nonexistant reading ability,......

OK I admit it, I posted the first example I found of Joe Pass's playing I found on the internet....

I suppose I should find an example of Joe Pass's playing that proves my point, but maybe I should leave sleeping dogs lie.

But I still would like to hear an example of steel guitar playing that matches the Joe Pass style.......

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 08 January 2003 at 12:52 PM.]

I guess my challenge isn't whether it would be possible to construct the chords in a Joe Pass solo piece on the C6th tuning. I know that it would be possible, Joe Pass's chordal palette isn;t particulary complex (it's pretty standard 50s bopish mainstream jazz). What I would like to hear is an example of a steel player playing in that Joe Pass solo style (with the walking bass mixed with comping and soloing). That's what seems particularly 'guitaristic'. Not the voicings (which aren't difficult) but the performance.

Note that I am not suggesting that Joe Pass's style is superior to what a steel player could do. I can do things in the jazz idiom that guitar players would love to play (but can't because of the limitations of their instrument). Likewise that particular (guitaristic) playing style is relatively hard to pull off on the pedal steel. Maybe it's easier than I thing, but I have never heard a steel player do it.

And back to the original issue of b0b's 12 string tuning. I simply don't understand how adding notes (without pedals) to the copedent takes away anything. Anybody who has spent time with this instrument knows that any time you can have a note available without the use of a pedal that's a big positive. I do understand (boy do I understand) the limitations of using 3 picks when playing jazz on the steel, and do understand why those C6th standard 'strums' were developed (to get around the limitations of the 3 pick technique). But I just don't get how adding an additional string takes away from the C6th tuning, as long as the player is willing to do the work required to add 1 or 2 additional picks, which gives much more flexibility in terms of string choice, voicing, attack, etc.

One thing to consider is that adding the middle D greatly increases the efficiency of playing scales/modes all across the neck. Anybody who has studied jazz improvisation knows how important this aspect of soloing is.

Another thing to consider is that the world's formost bebop steel player and the creator of much of the standard C6th copedent (Buddy Emmons) uses a middle D on his current 12 string C6th tuning.

This last is all that really needs to be said. In terms of playing mainstream jazz/bebop, Buddy is it (he wrote the book).

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If you listen to Joe's solo playing, he is choosing very specific 3-5 voice harmonies in his chording, picking these with his fingers

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I guess my challenge isn't whether it would be possible to construct the chords in a Joe Pass solo piece on the C6th tuning. I know that it would be possible

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First you say it matters. I refute it. Then you said it didn't matter.

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I can do things in the jazz idiom that guitar players would love to play

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How about a couple of examples. Harmonies, bass, melody. That sort of thing.

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One thing to consider is that adding the middle D greatly increases the efficiency of playing scales/modes all across the neck. Anybody who has studied jazz improvisation knows how important this aspect of soloing is

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You move the bar 2 frets. You gotta move it 1 fret for all the chromatics anyway. So you move it 2 frets for that one D note you occasionally play. Or you get a floor pedal for the note. And anyway, anyone who studies scales for using in improvisation know that most of the time you don't actually PLAY the scale, you just use it as a pool of notes from which to draw from. No rules says they all have to be at the same fret! If you play diminished scales, half the notes are on a different fret. If you play wholetone scales - you have to move 2 frets to get a note from the scale at the upper register of the fret. What about harmonic minor scales - you're moving the bar all over the place!

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I simply don't understand how adding notes (without pedals) to the copedent takes away anything

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Read all my previous posts. I collectively gave a number of reasons. Extended chord voicings not available with 4 picks, arpeggiation, etc. etc.

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Buddy Emmons) uses a middle D on his current 12 string C6th tuning.

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First of all, his incredible technical virtuosity puts his in a position where he can control any problems with it (you know, like using his bar thumb to mute the string). Us mere mortals need all the help we can get, and a non-common-sense note doesn't help. And besides, does he actively play that tuning - on records, at shows, etc.?

I use that and concur with Jeff ,that is very important pull.

Another good pull is lowering the 6th string E to D(there is your D).

I use them both and wouldn't play without them for the old jazz tunes.

Al, I've always thought of Winter Wonderland as a country tune. It's mostly triads, isn't it? Merle Haggard, Faron Young, Randy Travis and Chet Atkins have all recorded it. (Actually, the song transcends such labels. I'm just yanking your chain. )

The more I think about it, the more reasons I can think of that you might have wanted to make the switch.. care to satisfy my curiosity? It sounds as if this extended C6 is going to be used for the kind of things that you used diatonic for up until now.

Here's a guess; the C6+9 tuning gives you a much bigger range, with that low C. The addition of the d's makes the tuning a pentatonic scale, so it's conducive to thinking in terms of scales or of chords, and to blending the two concepts together, which is always a big challenge and goal.

I like 6th tunings because of the way they can be conceived as either a fattened triad, a major triad superimposed on its relative minor, or a gapped scale, and you've taken that one note farther, retaining the scalar concept with a bigger range. Also, when you leave a scale step out of the tuning it eliminates temperament compromises and leaves some modal choices open - there's no sevenths in your open strings, and the fourth only in the bass, so you can slip into Lydian or Mixolydian colours very easily without changing the tonic position.

Is this the kind of thing you were thinking?
I like the "inner d" idea myself. Also, even if you don't go back to a diatonic tuning, it must have been a big education
for your right hand to work with it.

It also might be true in the long run that a diatonic tuning makes more sense on an instrument without pedals. What do you think?

[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 10 January 2003 at 10:30 AM.]

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 10 January 2003 at 10:45 AM.]

Jeff. there are a number of books out their with transcriptions of Jazz Guitar solos, and I'm not going to buy any, one because that's not my bag, and second, because my reading is so bad it would be a whole lot easier for me to learn it by ear. I'll post some other 'guitaristic' examples and you can listen to them if you want.

I agree with Bob that it might be a good idea to fool around with the D in the middle (you can do as Buddy and Paul F did and put this change on pedal). I played the standard C6th for over 2 decades, and this tuning really works for me. I didn't know how much of a difference it would make until I tried it...

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I'm not going to get in deeper than I already have in this....

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You haven't gotten in "deep" at all. In fact, you have not provided, IMO, a single piece of real proof to support your generic claims for the superiority of the D note in the tuning. The only attempt was that Joe Pass transcription which took 15 minutes of my time to refute by figuring out the chords and writing the tab to show you how to play them. Not that that would be proof anyway, since there are always alternative harmonies that could be used just as effectively. Of course, you're under no obligation to supply any proof, and you haven't.

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I'll post some other 'guitaristic' examples and you can listen to them if you want.

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No need. I have plenty of examples.

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you can do as Buddy and Paul F did and put this change on pedal

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I have it on a floor pedal and I've tried it.

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I played the standard C6th for over 2 decades

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Means nothing to me.

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I didn't know how much of a difference it would make until I tried it...

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   1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9     10    11    12    13    14
 1_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____
 2_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____
 3_____|_____D_____|_____E_____F_____|_____G_____|_____A_____|_____B_____C_____|_____
 4_____|____BC_____|_____D____DE_____|_____EF____F_____G_____G_____A_____A_____|_____
 5_____|_____A_____|_____B_____C_____|_____D_____|_____E_____F_____F_____G_____|_____
 6_____E_____F_____G_____G_____A_____|_____B_____C_____C_____D_____D_____E_____|_____
 7_____D_____D_____E_____E_____F_____G_____G_____A_____|_____B_____|_____C_____|_____
 8_____|_____B_____C_____|_____D_____|_____E_____F_____|_____G_____|_____A_____|_____
 9_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____
 10____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____

When I improvise in the key of C, this is what the neck looks like to me. That's not to say that I know the notes by hard, or that I am equally efficient at using all of them, just that any C major (or D Dorian, or G mixolydian, or whatever) pattern that I use can potentially rely on these major scale notes, because the string, fret, and pedal patterns that I know use these notes. Wherever you see two notes on the same fret, it means that I may or may not use a pedal. Of course, this does not include the chromatics. That's another matter. But the point is, thinking in terms of a single extra D note to save the bar movement is preposterous. I do the same with the other scales I use (diminished, whole-tone, jazz minor, harmonic minor). Bar movement all over the neck is just the reality. Of course, the other side is all the disadvantages that I see, spelled out in all my previous posts. .. Jeff

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 10 January 2003 at 10:47 PM.]

I think its time for me to head down to the bar for a big glass of Anafranil.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 11 January 2003 at 01:49 AM.]

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I think its time for me to head down to the bar for a big glass of Anafranil

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What's giving you a headache, my comments or the fretboard?

Ok, I admit I'm being overbearing on this. But we've had this disucssion before several times, and, not that I'm entitled to anything, 'cause I'm not, but it sure would be nice to have an example, some proof, anything to show why you feel that this is a superior tuning. You say it works better in modern jazz. What do you mean by that? Don't name a song that no one ever heard of, spell out a specific musical idea. You say it works better in ensembles? What do you mean by that? What SPECIFIC aspect of playing in an ensemble makes it better? You say you can play certain scales? Then tab one of these scales out. How about it - just show us something - anything!

b0b, if you would like me to lay off this thing, I would be glad to do it. Just give me the word, and I'll leave it alone, and you guys can go ahead with anything else you want to talk about.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 11 January 2003 at 06:19 AM.]

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When you play arpeggios, do you cross-pick, or roll, or what?

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When I play I don't try to be the entire string quartet. I try to fulfill the musical role of the viola. In a jazz context I find myself gravitating to the role of the trombone section in an Ellington arrangement.

How I hear music is more related to quartal harmony than triadic stacks of intervals with alterations. I also tend to play parts that are contrapuntally based in the middle register. So in my case having the low C string doesn't do me much good. I almost never played it within ensemble situations. Having the D string in the middle offers a different set of options that I find much more useful.

Another thing to think about is how closely related the E13 tuning is to the C6 tuning with the middle D. There is allot there that has been used in a standard way for quite some time now.

I understand your system of logic with your tuning. It is a beautiful thing. The thing I don't think you understand is that there are many different musical systems even within the limited context of jazz that each offer valid ways of expressing oneself. One of the most important things I learned from getting a formal musical education is that right and wrong have nothing to do with playing music.

I have also found that what I need to deal with as a steel player under the gun on the bandstand has very little to do with the crafty stuff I was practicing all day.

I could give you specific intervalic/musical examples of why the middle D thing is more practical for my needs but you tend to relate everything to your own personal closed system of musical logic. If you can only comprehend music within one fixed system then you already have all the answers.

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you tend to relate everything to your own personal closed system of musical logic.

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