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Author
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Topic: Is tone REALLY all in the hands?
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Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 05 January 2003 01:59 AM
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Recently I had the peassure of hearing Doug "Earnest Bovine" Livingston play on two occasions within a matter of just a day or two. The first time he played a Sho-Bud. The second, a Franklin.Same hands, same amp. Completly different tone. The Sho-Bud had a thicker and deeper sound (which I personally prefer) The Franklin had a brighter and crisper tone. The difference between the 2 was kind of like the difference between the sound of a Les Paul with humbucking pickups and a Telecaster with single coils. We hear a lot about how tone is in the hands, and I don't completely disagree, but I think the guitar, the pickup, the amp (and the way it is set) and even the kind of bar used also makes a big difference. Comments? |
Johan Jansen
Member From: Europe
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posted 05 January 2003 02:26 AM
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tone is in the player, sound is in the gear 
JJ------------------
 Click on the pic! |
Al Miller
Member From: Nashville, TN
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posted 05 January 2003 05:01 AM
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Johan!!
Not one of us here on the forum could have put that answer Any Better my frend .
Tone is something a select few are born with. sound is something All!!! of us can Buy!!
BOO |
Bengt Erlandsen
Member From: Brekstad, NORWAY
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posted 05 January 2003 05:20 AM
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Now if only a couple other players had been there and played those same guitars you would probably have heard that a lot comes from the hands but not everything.Bengt |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 05 January 2003 06:51 AM
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I was wondering if anybody was going to come up with a topic for good conversation this year. Johan put it as good as I've heard and in short order too however what about this? Ever hear a guy play two different guitars and yet sound the same on each? That's not the case with me but I've heard that from several six string players. I use an Emmons p/p or a Sho-Bud through the same gear and there is a noticeable difference in tone. Both are good but different. If tone were only in the hands the rest of the gear wouldn't matter. I'd be using the lightest stuff I could find. I think tone comes down to the thickness of the speaker cabinets and the type of wood used as well as the speakers or any of the rest of your gear. It's all of that stuff. I read somewhere that birchwood was the most exceptable wood for speaker cabinets. |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 05 January 2003 07:06 AM
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Absolutly not! If it was everyone would play the same brand thru the same setup.It is a given that a skilled player is required, just as it is a given that a good cord is needed. |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 05 January 2003 08:17 AM
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A skilled player will only get the best tone that the steel is capable of giving.
An unskilled player will probably never get a good tone, no matter what steel is being played. |
Rick Collins
Member From: Claremont , CA USA
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posted 05 January 2003 10:08 AM
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All of your statements are true to a degree; but have missed the bullseye. The true source of tone comes from the mind and ear of the player. The player will move his hands, feet, and knees in an effort to deliver what his mind perceives to be "his best". He will also "consciously" seek out the hardware which will best aid his delivery. In other words, it takes both,___good hardware and good technique, to attain the best possible tone.I believe it takes only nominal musical experience to recognize "good tone"; but much playing experience to deliver "good tone". Excessive speed in playing and excessive volume have nothing to do with "good tone"; but many unaccomplished players attempt to substitute these two excesses for what they are unsure of in their delivery. I believe the road to "good tone" is to practice (and play to your audience), as if you are, yourself, sitting in the audience and anticipating the best possible tone. And then you will do the things it takes to deliver it. Rick |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 05 January 2003 10:11 AM
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Different guitars do sound different, as do different amps.
I played a country gig with my Williams and my Webb. A month later, I played with the same singer on a different country gig, using the Williams and my Mesa rack. The singer commented that I should have brought the Webb, because it sounds much "better" than the rack.
I had to admit he was right. The Williams doesn't match up well with the rack. My Sierra, on the other hand, sounds "better" with the rack than it does with the Webb.
Still, there's a lot to be said about tone being in the hands. Often I catch myself sounding brighter or darker on a passage than I expected, simply because my right hand position has drifted. An adjustment of picking angle or lateral position can make all the difference.
I also know that I can sit down at someone else's steel and get a totally different tone, without changing their amp settings. Usually I sound "worse" than them, which leads me to believe that tone is mostly in other players hands.  ------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic |
Dave Birkett
Member From: Oxnard, CA, USA
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posted 05 January 2003 10:16 AM
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I agree with Mike. I think "tone" is poor diction. After all, can I adjust what you fellows are talking about with my tone knob? "Touch" would be a more accurate term. In fact, as our hispanophone members will tell you, the Spanish uses this verb for "play" when speaking of musical instruments. |
Jimmie Misenheimer
Member From: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.
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posted 05 January 2003 10:23 AM
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A good set of hands plays a guitar well. Equipment sounds like it sounds. If you have a rig that sounds like it has a nasal infection, and have an excelent player set and play it, you will have a "honkey" sounding guitar being played VERY WELL.
I was personally never a big fan of one of the most famous of all steelmen ever, because of the tone he seemed to always get. This was what he wanted, and it sure wasn't "wrong", it just wasn't what I preferred. Without a doubt one of the finest ever - I just didn't care for the sound of his equipment. If you set _________, you fill in the blank, at his guitar, it would STILL have the same tonal coloration. If you like it, fine. All that I am saying is, the sound - tone - texture, or timbre of certain types of equipment isn't going to change much from player to player.
Just my opinion - no harm, no foul... Jimmie |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 05 January 2003 10:26 AM
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Your Tele vs Les Paul analogy is right on, Mike. Though they sound different, each is perfect for certain tunes or stlyes.Since you like the old MSA sound, I'm not surprized that you perfer the Sho-Bud to the Franklin. That's why I wondered in another post if you'd like the new MSA. I haven't heard it, but I understand it's sound is more modern. I know my Carter has a modern sound, sort of Tele, and will not sound like a Sho-Bud or Fulawaka (Les Paul). It'll be interesting to hear how the new "aged timber" Carters compare. I had a Tele custom made to try to sound like a Les Paul or Tele in one guitar. It came close, but never as good as the real thing. Still the player's skill and taste is the most important element. |
Terry Edwards
Member From: Layton, UT
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posted 05 January 2003 10:33 AM
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JJ nailed it! Imagine what Jimmy Hendrix or Stevie Ray Vaughan would have sounded like if they played Les Pauls instead of Stats. They would still have good tone but the sound and the resultant "style" would have been entirely different. To my ears Sho-Buds are like Gibson guitars and Emmons P-P are like Fender guitars in sound. And I believe the feel and sound of these guitars influence the way we play and eventually determine our "style".Style = tone (technique) + sound (equipment) Terry |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
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posted 05 January 2003 10:36 AM
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The Franklin sounded brighter because I used a buffer amp on a very short cord from the pickup. I wanted a thinner sound that night, because the band had two guitars plus steel.
The Sho-Bud sounded more mellow because I went from pickup to passive volume pedal to amp. I wanted to fill out the lower frequencies that night, because there were no guitars.Both steels had Lawrence 712 pickup. |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 05 January 2003 11:00 AM
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I still love Randy Beaver's statement, made here on the Forum a year or so ago, to the effect that tone is what happens when you've got your technique together well enough that your soul comes through.This just rings true to me. |
Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 05 January 2003 11:48 AM
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Earnest, you get it. Bravo. |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 05 January 2003 01:02 PM
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Most of the "tone" is in the equipment, while the "technique" is in the hands! A lot of players confuse tone with technique and sound. IMHO, Lloyd's playing isn't about tone at all. It's about technique...the perfect intonation (with that wonderful vibrato and slant-bar manipulation), the great sense of timing, the flawless right-hand execution, the beautiful voicings (with just the right blend of notes and chords), the expert volume pedal work, and...his imagination. To suggest that he couldn't sound as good, or play as well, on an Emmons, or any other good guitar, does nothing but cheapen his talents. There is a great difference between the simplistic "tone", and the sum total of how a player sounds when he plays. Most of us would do well to forget about the "tone" thing, and just learn how to play better. my2cents |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 05 January 2003 02:10 PM
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Right on Donny. |
James Quackenbush
Member From: Pomona, New York, USA
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posted 05 January 2003 04:49 PM
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My feelings are that there are many variables going on at the same time..Different steels have different tones...Different amps have different tones....
Then you factor in the different players with different techniques, and they all sound different...
So I say NO, it's not all in the hands, but the hands, and techniques, do play an important role... |
Al Miller
Member From: Nashville, TN
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posted 05 January 2003 05:07 PM
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Donny ,mike and all the others ..
Dont get me wrong I agree with everyones reply.But when I refer to "TONE" im not refering to sound or even a noise for that matter. its HEART ,SOUL, the thing that runs through your blood. some people are born with it and some are not PERIOD.. Now take Tom Kaufman for example that boy has TONE running through his viens . this guy is blind and peels of licks that would make LLoyd green himself stand up and take notice Now thats tone....
BOO |
Willis Vanderberg
Member From: Bradenton, FL, USA
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posted 05 January 2003 05:53 PM
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Why doesn't killer sound or tone or whatever stay the same ?I sound good in one place and the same equipment sounds blah in the next venue .I am playing a LeGrande 111.and can't even come close to the sound of most other guitars.This doesn't really bother me as I like the LeGrande.I definately can't get the highs like a Mullen does.I have two Nashville 400's , a new Evans SE 200 and a Emmons LeGrande six hundred.They all sound good in some places and not so good in others.I do notice they all sound better with no lead guitars on the premises. Bud |
chas smith
Member From: Encino, CA, USA
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posted 05 January 2003 06:42 PM
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quote:
I sound good in one place and the same equipment sounds blah in the next venue .
All things being equal, there are a lot of extraneous factors that affect how we sound beyond how loud the rest of the band is playing: the shape of the room, how much clear hardwood in front of your amp, how many people (each human absorbs 1 sabine of sound( you can think of them as large bags of water (for the misanthropes among us)))... it's why the stereo speakers you just bought sounded better in the store than in your living room and why they sound different again when you relocate them.If I don't sound good, I blame it on the: carpet, ceiling, bass player, Republican Party.... |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 05 January 2003 06:58 PM
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Tone=soul?Well Boo, we'll just have to "agree to disagree", then! But maybe I can illustrate for you...the difference between "tone" and "soul". When people people talk of "soulful" singers, like Hank Sr., Peggy Lee, Ray Charles, Billy Holiday,or Patsy Cline...nobody ever mentions their "tone", do they? Soul is painting the musical canvas using a brush filled with feeling, expression, and emotion. Even a singer like Jimmy Durante had it in his version of "September Song". But his "tone" wasn't all that good! [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 05 January 2003 at 06:59 PM.] |
Johan Jansen
Member From: Europe
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posted 06 January 2003 02:07 AM
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To me, tone and soul are the same, and synonymous words in music. You can also talk about 'musical personality.'It's still the same person, wearing another costume.
With a singer you talk about soul and timbre, with an instrument about tone and timbre, or tone and sound.
I also agree by what Jim Cohen mentioned.If a soul speaks through the instrument, then you have music.And that's a long way of study, practice and most of all , talent. But all things need to be on the right place (an instrument with all the amp gimmicks) and the right time. If I hear Buddy Emmons, I recognise his TONE, whether he plays an Emmons, Sierra, Derby,Fender, or MSA. He may have another sound, but the soul will always be recognised. The same for players, like,Paul F, Tommy W, Curly C, Bruce B, Lloyd G, Joe W etc. Those are souls that are playing, getting a tone!!!!!!! |
Mike Perlowin
Member From: Los Angeles CA
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posted 06 January 2003 03:45 AM
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I think we're not in agreement on the definition of tone. I think it's the sound that's produced. Things like technigue, emotional depth, command of the instrument, etc all contribute to the quality of the music, but that's not what I think of as defining the word tone. Basically I agree with Donny. |
Jack Anderson
Member From: Scarborough, ME
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posted 06 January 2003 04:58 AM
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Rather than disagreement, there are two overlapping but different conversations going on here (as usual). Probably everyone on the Forum agrees with Johan, Jim, Al et al. that soul and technique play an important role in how a pedal steel sounds overall. However, no one can deny that purely mechanical and electrical factors provide the basic raw material with which the soulful, technical artist must work. That part is what Donny and Mike and Chas and b0b are trying to talk about (without, I think, meaning to deny that each player working with the basic elements can end up with very different overall sounds). It might be helpful if we could agree on two separate terms, and how to use them -- e.g. say that Donny is talking about "tone" and Johan is talking about "sound" -- or vice versa, as they are both pretty vague words, and there probably will be a big argument about which one better applies to which. Maybe we could refer to the subset of electro-mechanical [tone] vs. the totality of [sound]. We'd still probably get two overlapping but different conversations on the same thread. Onward into 2003....[This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 06 January 2003 at 05:00 AM.] |
Charles Tilley
Member From: Princeton, Texas USA
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posted 06 January 2003 05:15 AM
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that tone is what happens when you've got your technique together well enough that your soul comes through.Jim, you sure do know how to settle a discussion. Without soul coming through, tone and sound are out the window. TONE AND SOUND are in the soul regardless of the instrument. Charles Tilley. |
Terry Edwards
Member From: Layton, UT
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posted 06 January 2003 06:00 AM
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I think we are talking about two different tones.1. The natural tone a particular instrument and amplifier has. 2. The tone that one gets from his technique. It is the combination of these two that produces the overall tone. A player with bad technique will not produce as good a tone out of a good guitar as a player with good technique. Sometimes I think Buddy Emmons could get tone from bailing wire stretched across a couple of two by fours! Terry |
Kenny Dail
Member From: Kinston, N.C. 28504
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posted 06 January 2003 09:52 AM
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Tone is what you get when you combine equipment and technique. Soul is the phrasing and voicings (including tone)used by the player to express his personal feelings. Our instrument is just an extension of our own personal feelings, our "sound" and "effects" are devices we use to enhance our feelings. We refer to our hero's sound as a gauge for our own sound. I have heard better tone from an old PV 500 or Session 400 and a Boss DD-3 than most players can get with a "rack" full of "stuff." Joe Turner, who is a regular performer at the Saluda, S.C. jam, uses a refurbished Marlin and old Session 400 circa 1978 and an Eleco-Harmonix Clone for effects and I would put his tone and technique in a class with the best of them.------------------
kd...and the beat goes on... [This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 06 January 2003 at 09:53 AM.]
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Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 06 January 2003 10:58 AM
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quote:
It might be helpful if we could agree on two separate terms, and how to use them
Actually, you only need one word. However, the defintion of the word "tone" varies according to the reference. If the reference is to a piece of equipment ("Emmons p/p has great tone"), then it is strictly the physics of the instrument. If it refers to a player ("Buddy Emmons has great tone") then it is the juxtaposition of the equipment and technical ability of the player. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 06 January 2003 at 10:59 AM.] |
richard burton
Member From: Britain
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posted 06 January 2003 11:03 AM
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If we take as read that a great player's tone is enhanced by excellent technique, if that player was incapacitated in some way (say, drunk),and his technique suffered, would his tone also suffer? I'm not saying that some of you guys have first-hand experience of this, but it would be interesting to hear any anecdotes. |
Martin Abend
Member From:
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posted 06 January 2003 01:32 PM
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quote:
(each human absorbs 1 sabine of sound)
what's measured in sabine??? It' s a women's name in Germany...??? ------------------
martin abend Pedal-Steel in Germany
s-10 sierra crown gearless 3 x4 | Regal RD45 | fender hotrod deluxe |
Randy Pettit
Member From: Van Alstyne, Texas USA
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posted 06 January 2003 03:30 PM
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The Sabine keeps the Coon @sses on the east side of the river where they belong. Unfortunately for me, there is no tone in my hands - only in my head. I don't think I'll get the tone I desire until I get to heaven. Until then, "acceptable tone" will have to do - which uses the "Cohen" as the standard of measurement.[This message was edited by Randy Pettit on 06 January 2003 at 03:31 PM.] |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 06 January 2003 05:58 PM
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I've finally attained immortality! Yaaay! |
Andy Greatrix
Member From: Edmonton Alberta
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posted 08 January 2003 11:00 AM
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The tone that comes from the instrument and amp can be altered when the power in the wall-plug drops from 110 to 100 or even as low as 90.I used to play at a club that had a rock room next door. When the band started to play on the other side, the lights would dim and the PA and amps would lose highs and punch.
-Andy |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 08 January 2003 01:41 PM
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NO it is NOT all in the hands. BE said right on this forum,"The reason I went back to Emmons' after playing my Sierra was I had a sound in my head that I could not get out of the Sierra". That is good enough for me. carl |
Randy Beavers
Member From: Lebanon,TN 37090
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posted 09 January 2003 05:05 PM
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Just for the sake of discussion, do you think you can tell anything about someones personality just by listening to them play? This would only pertain to players whose abilities are at a level that would let their personalities or "soul" come through in their playing. I feel like I can tell something about a person just by listening to them play. Are they nervous and high strung, laid back, melancholic? Think about it, someone that you know well that is a "world class" player. Does his playing mimic his personality? |
CHIP FOSSA
Member From: Monson, MA 01057 U.S.A.
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posted 09 January 2003 07:04 PM
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I'm gonna jump in here. Maybe I shouldn't.
When I play, I can tell almost immediately
whether I'm gonna have a good gig, or just a fair one.
I can't explain this in real comprehensible terms. I just hang on to the bar, and like the OUIJA
board, I just let her go where she wants to. You know what I mean. I get really great tone when I grab strings
away from the pick-up, and play with determination, and try to milk the sweet sound of the steel. That's it for now.....PLAY SOFTLY AND CARRY
A BIG SHTICK. Chipsee |
Jimmie Misenheimer
Member From: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.
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posted 09 January 2003 11:24 PM
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Randy - ABSOLUTLY! This is something that I picked up on a few years back, with guitar players. I thought everyone in the world had figgured this out but me, but you're the only other person that I've ever heard mention it.
I started noticing that the different guitar men that we had, played just like their personality. One very good one, that did a fair amount of work around the "Opry", was so hyper that you couldn't be around him. That was the way that he played too.
The best that I ever worked with - considered by pretty much all to be "The Man" in Indianapolis, was the most laid back, easiest guy to be around in the world.
I suppose we're all like that, but all of the "good ones" that I've ever been around, I have found to play just like their personality - even more-so than their mood...
Jimmie |
Randy Beavers
Member From: Lebanon,TN 37090
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posted 10 January 2003 06:23 AM
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Another observation, as most people age their personalities "mellow out", and their musical taste does likewise. We can listen to our favorite players "mature" through decades of recordings and make these distinctions. Some, when they're young and eager, like to play fast and aggresive, and then as they age, prefer a more laid back or "emotional" approach. I know this is the catagory I fall into. I now prefer complex chords and slower melodies that I wouldn't have cared for 20 years ago. This is who
"I am" now. My points may be a little bit of a "thread jack", but I believe tone is more than certain frequencies with certain parameters applied to them. I don't want to be a "steel player", but rather a musician who's insturment happens to be a steel guitar. |
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