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Author
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Topic: Franklin" change
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Allen
Member From: Littleton, CO USA
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posted 05 February 2003 03:46 PM
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I am having a new Zum built, SD10, and am wondering if it is worth the $$ to have the Franklin change added.
I am just a 2 1/2 year experienced psg student, but don't want to miss a chance to get this axe fixed the way I want for now and the future.
What's your opinion?------------------
Allen Harry
Emmons SD10
Nashville 1000 |
Craig A Davidson
Member From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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posted 05 February 2003 03:54 PM
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I don't have it and really don't want it,but there are others who can't live without it. To me it's like any other lever or pedal. If you can find a need I would put it on, especially when you are starting from scratch. I have 8 and 7 without it and that's more than I can handle. This is a change that some consider candy. In other words it's your call.------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele |
Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 05 February 2003 06:06 PM
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What are you having as your 'basic' set-up? Like Craig, I feel the (so-called) Franklin change is far from vital, but if the licks that are acheived with this 'pull' really 'speak' to you, you may consider it important.I have five 'knees' on E9 alone, but I don't have that one. |
Joey Gaskins
Member From: Newbern, North Carolina, USA
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posted 05 February 2003 06:41 PM
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I have the Franklin change on my RKL and use it an awful lot. It came on my Carter Starter and when I bought a pro-model I had it set up that way. I play mostly southern gospel and find I use it on many songs. |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 05 February 2003 07:06 PM
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Joey, the Franklin change (or pedal) being discussed lowers strings 5, 6, and 10 a whole tone each. I doubt that those changes would have come on a Carter Starter.  Maybe you're talking about another of his changes which raises string 1 a whole tone and string two a half tone. Then again, I might be confused.  |
Reggie Duncan
Member From: Mississippi
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posted 05 February 2003 08:06 PM
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If you play the Day floor setup, I would consider putting is on pedal 4. If I played the Emmons setup, I would use the LKV. |
Dave Birkett
Member From: Oxnard, CA, USA
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posted 05 February 2003 09:26 PM
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I lower the 5th on RKL and the 6th on LKV. I got the idea from watching Tommy White on his video with Lloyd Green. |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 05 February 2003 11:25 PM
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What Dave said.I have the Franklin 4th pedal but added a 6th knee so I could get the split like Tommy. Check this out.You've Got Me (Right Where You Want Me) (Connie Smith)-- Steel Break. To play this you'll want to have the Franklin change split on (2) knee pedals so you can mix it up with your B pedal.Also if you're raising strings 1 or 2 or (both) and lowering the 6th you'll have problems.Not so much on this tune.I can only think of one place where they will get in the way. But if you have his CD you'll know where I'm coming from.To do the Tommy thing you will want the 6th string lower and split on a knee by itself.-----bb [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 06 February 2003 at 12:04 AM.] |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 05 February 2003 11:34 PM
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Oh well.Thought I was posting a link.  Just go to Ricky and Rebels site.Click on 2002 tab.Scroll down to you find the Connie and Tommy file.I love the way this guy thinks.-bb |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 06 February 2003 12:24 AM
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I like both changes to E9 str #1. Therefore, several yrs ago, I devised a way to have the best of both worlds! My E9 neck has 4 pedals & 5KL's. My P1 raises str#1 F# to G# and str#2 D# to E. Then Emmons pedals A,B,C. Then my LKL raises str#4 E to F and #8 E to F/F#. LKV lowers strs#5 & #10 B's to Bb's. LKR Lower strs#4 & #8 E's. to Eb's. RKL raises str#1 F# to G and lowers str#6 G# to F#. RKR lowers str#2 D# to D/C#, and lowers str#9 D to C#. This set-up has served me well for what I do, and I don't have any plans to change a thing! "Big John" http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels |
Michael T. Hermsmeyer
Member From: Branson, Mo 65616 USA
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posted 06 February 2003 03:18 AM
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I have been contemplating the Franklin change myself. I was needing to know what parts I needed. If I play Emmons setup on a Legrande, can I put the change on pedal 4 or is it used in combination with pedal 1? I have a LNV available with two rods, would I just need one more rod to try the change? Then if I like it, am I going to have to have my guitar rebuilt and shift pedals 123 down to 234? I'm not sure I want to go to all that trouble. Since Paul plays Day setup, am I going to run into all these problems? Also, if I like this change enough, who's gonna rebuild my PP?? LOL.
Calling Jerry Roller, LOL.Thanks, Michael T. ------------------
UTILITY MAN PRODUCTIONS
'73 EMMONS D10 FATBACK, '92 EMMONS D10 LASHLEY LEGRANDE,
'85 DOBRO 60DS, '95 DOBRO F60S,
'95 MELOBAR CUSTOM, 1955 FENDER TRIPLE NECK STRINGMASTER. EVANS, FENDER, PEAVEY,
and MESA BOOGIE Amps. |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 06 February 2003 05:44 AM
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Paul Franklin plays an (Emmons floor set-up).And yes the Franklin 4th will work fine on an Emmons Legrande of any model.Chances are you already have the 6th string lower on a knee lever. To (split) the Franklin change. Just add the B to A lowers to your LKV.(IF) you're raising strings 1 or 2 or (both) with your 6th string lower. They will be in the way for a lot of things. But you'll get the idea.--------------bb[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 06 February 2003 at 06:20 AM.] |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 06 February 2003 06:26 AM
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Bobby Boggs is definitely right about Tommy White's break on Connie Smith's tune. Check it out on Rebel and Ricky's 2002 page here:
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/2002.html
It's at the bottom of the page. |
Reggie Duncan
Member From: Mississippi
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posted 06 February 2003 07:30 AM
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Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 06 February 2003 07:46 AM
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Bobby,I am confused. Are you saying the following: 1. Lower 6 a whole tone on a knee lever. 2. Lower 5 and 10 a whole tone on an another knee lever on the opposite knee. 3. And still lower 5, 6 and 10 on pedal 4? Thanks man, luv ya, carl |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 06 February 2003 08:55 AM
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Carl. That's what I'm doing.The reason being.I've had the Franklin 4th since 95 and mix it up some other knees.After buying Tommy's CD and hearing his ideas for the split. I had to have it.Having the Franklin 4th (AND) the (split) is over kill for most.However it was all ready on my guitars and like I said you can mix it with other knees and do things you can't do with the split. The advantage to having the split on opposite knees as apposed to having it on a knee and 4th or (1st) pedal. Is, you can mix the B to A lower with the (B pedal) as Tommy does on his new CD. (Examples) I'm moving On.Walk Through This World with Me.Just to name a few. Regards---------bb  |
Dave Birkett
Member From: Oxnard, CA, USA
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posted 06 February 2003 12:22 PM
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Here's a move TW does on the video. It's in Cold, Cold Heart.
4__5~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I~~
5__5A~~~5~~5LL~~~~~~~~~I~5
6__5B~~~~~~~~~~~5~~5LL~I~5
___*_______*___________I_* [This message was edited by Dave Birkett on 06 February 2003 at 12:23 PM.] |
ajm
Member From: Los Angeles
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posted 06 February 2003 06:44 PM
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I don't know how often you'll use it, but...a) If you're getting a new guitar anyway and already spending a sizeable sum of money, I'd get it put on now rather than later. It's easier that way. You know that you don't have to use it if you don't want to. And you will have another pedal already there if you decide to add a different change at some point in the future. b) If you're getting an Emmons set up I'd put it on the far left pedal (left to right: Franklin-A-B-C). It seems that it's used a lot either right after or right before using the A-B combination. For a Day set up I'd put it on the far right.
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Artie McEwan
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Michael T. Hermsmeyer
Member From: Branson, Mo 65616 USA
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posted 07 February 2003 04:58 AM
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Thanks Bobby, I already lower string six 1 whole tone on RKL, and also on the same lever I raise string one 1 whole tone. The rest of the change is just lowereing 5 and 10 a whole tone right? My LNV has two rods, is this all I need to try this change? Or was there something about lowering string 2? I lower string 2 with a half and a whole step with RNR. This would not work in combination with the RKL. Is this why they are putting this change on a pedal? Or am I totally lost?
Also I see someguys saying that Emmons setup needs the Franklin pedal on the left side and some say it needs to be on the right, which is correct? Or is it a preference thing and both will work? Or should I just go back to bed, my head hurts. Maybe I'm making this harder than it is, I just need to know if I need to buy parts. Not too many steel techs around here.
Thanks for your help.
God Bless,
Michael T.------------------
UTILITY MAN PRODUCTIONS
'73 EMMONS D10 FATBACK, '92 EMMONS D10 LASHLEY LEGRANDE,
'85 DOBRO 60DS, '95 DOBRO F60S,
'95 MELOBAR CUSTOM, 1955 FENDER TRIPLE NECK STRINGMASTER. EVANS, FENDER, PEAVEY,
and MESA BOOGIE Amps. |
Ernie Renn
Member From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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posted 07 February 2003 05:00 AM
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I had the B to A's and G# to F# on independent levers in '77. I got the changes of a chart of Buddy's tuning that Clem Schmitz had at his store in Minneapolis. I didn't use the B to A enough to warrant adding another lever to my set-up when I switched from a push-pull to a LeGrande. I had the first string F# to G# on the fourth pedal on E9. (Which I have now, too.) I put that one on there because Buddy had used the change on Darrell McCall's Lily Dale album.------------------
My best,
Ernie
The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com[This message was edited by Ernie Renn on 07 February 2003 at 05:04 AM.] |
George Macdonald
Member From: Lantzville, BC, Canada
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posted 07 February 2003 09:34 AM
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Question: With the "Franklin Change" on pedal one, would using that and the "A" pedal together, [Emmons set up] cancel out strings 5 and 10 leaving you with just the 6th string G# to F# drop? I use the G# to F# drop a lot and used to have it on the vertical knee that raises my top F# to G# but have opted to raise string 7 instead of lowering string 6 on that knee. Now I lower string 6 on pedal 1. |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 07 February 2003 10:15 AM
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With compensators you could set it up such that the raises and lowers cancel each other out, that might be cool.  |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 07 February 2003 01:48 PM
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Michael T.Hermsmeye:
Your're way over thinking this. The full Franklin 4th pedal change on (E9) is 5,6 and 10 lowered a whole tone each.Most guys don't use 10 but I like it. Roger as for parts.How often do you use your C6th 4th pedal change? If you don't, take the rods and bellcranks and move them to the E9 side. This will give you the idea at no out of pocket cost to you. And (if) I had to choose.I would split the Franklin change.As Tommy White does.See b0b's tunings.Just more bang for the buck.You'll note Tommy has no other changes on the lever that lowers the 6th string.I agree that's the way it should be.Oh it's OK (IF you want to lower the (7th) string a 1/2 tone. Bottom line (I) don't want my 1st and 2nd string raises on with my 6th string lower.(If) you want to play some Tommy licks like in the above posted link you don't either. Ok for whomever asked. You don't want the A pedal to cancel out the Frank pedal. With Emmons set-ups some guys like the Frank pedal first (because) you work back and forth between the A pedal and the Frank pedal a lot.I have the Frank pedal on pedal 4 but I'm fast with my feet. Lastly, guys have played for years without these changes so it can be done. Lloyd does pretty good with only 4 knees but he's better with the bar than me. A pedal set-up is personal thing.So play what works for you.I hope this clears things up a bit.-----------------bb [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 08 February 2003 at 12:27 AM.] |
Dave Birkett
Member From: Oxnard, CA, USA
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posted 08 February 2003 12:14 AM
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Paul Franklin explains his setup on the "Who Came Up with Knee Levers" thread. Click Here. |
Michael T. Hermsmeyer
Member From: Branson, Mo 65616 USA
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posted 08 February 2003 01:25 AM
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Thanks Bobby, I'll give it a try, and take some Excedrin, LOL.
Michael T. |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 08 February 2003 09:04 AM
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Bobby,Another question? If I lowered the 6th string from G# to F# on RKL (nothing else on this lever) AND lowered 5 and 10 a whole tone on pedal 4 AND had the Emmons A B C setup, could I do EVERY thing you can do? In other words it would give me the split, but I would not have the lowering of 5, 6 and 10 on pedal 4. So would this work out ok?. Or would I be losing something? I just have NO place for yet another knee lever. Thanks dear friend, carl |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 08 February 2003 10:30 AM
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Almost Carl.But as stated I'm really in to Tommy's playing.He's mixing the B floor pedal for a very quick unison sound with the B to A lower.This happens very very fast.Not saying it can't be done. It just want be as slick. With that said.There are plenty of licks. You can always put your twist to it.My set-up evolved because I like Paul Franklins (RKR) so much.But you know how I feel about Buddy's playing.I had to have that 6th string lower and split.So I added the 6th knee to the E9 and I now have (Both) Paul, Buddys and Tommy's copendent.Plus I added a light 1/2 stop to Pauls (RKR) so that gives me
F# to G to G#
Eb to E
F# to G to G# I should add I no longer have Pauls G# to E lower.A cool change but you can't have everything. Unless---I added another knee. No I'm not going to do it. Take Care my Friend!---------bb |
Allen
Member From: Littleton, CO USA
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posted 08 February 2003 11:04 AM
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Great stuff!!
Here is what I am looking at for a copedant:P1 Franklin 5&6 down a whole (--)
P2 - P3 Standard ABC (Emmons)
LkL 4&8 up a half (+)
LkR 4&8 down a half (-)
LkV 5&10 down a half (-)
RkL 1 up a half (+) and 6 down a whole (--)
RkR 2 split down a half and whole (-/-) and 9 down a half (-)
Using standard 10 string E9th open tuning. Any thoughts or comments? ------------------
Allen Harry
Emmons SD10
Nashville 1000 |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 08 February 2003 11:18 AM
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Michael: if you try what I mentioned. (Don't) place the rods in the top holes of the Bellcranks as so many inexperienced PSG mechanics do.Your pedal will be too stiff.Instead place the rods in maybe the 5th hole from the cross bar.It should pedal fairly soft with just 2 lowers.My Legrands II is at the gig.I'm thinking I hooked mine a little lower.I have 5,6,&10 plus a whole tone pull on C6th.My 4th is pretty soft for that many changes.I know a few tricks to make that pedal softer.But that's a whole nother thread and with only 2 lowers your should feel pretty good. Hope this helps!---------bb |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 08 February 2003 11:48 AM
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Sorry Michael: I was thinking of someone else when I wrote my last post.Someone who wanted to try the changes on their 4th pedal.Between this thread and E-mail I can't keep track. You fellows with 14 hole bellcrank Legrandes remember don't pry the E-clips off.They will be to hard to reinstall,Instead (Pull) them off so you want bend them.A bent E-clip can be a real pain.In some cases you can ruin them.I have a small set of lock ring pliers.I first turn the E-clips where I can pull straight up or to the side.I then insert the (Hooks) of the pliers in the 2 holes, (eyes) of the E-clips and give a firm pull. They should slide right off.Oh if you're new to it.It may take a couple of tries..-----bb |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 08 February 2003 12:27 PM
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ok Bobby, Please give us your exact copedent on E9th, so I can visualize NOT only what you are doing, but what knees and floor pedal combinations can be used simultaneously. Thanks soo much. And Bobby, IF you can play PF and TW, half as well as you do BE, they might be concerned a little bit for their careers. Seriously, as has been said, "Bobby Boggs played more steel at the age of 16 than most will ever be able to do". You are one blessed and talented young man my friend. God richly bless you always, carl |
Jeff Peterson
Member From: Nashville, TN USA
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posted 08 February 2003 08:12 PM
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There are no 'tricks' to the set-up of a LeGrande...just knowlege of a well designed instrument. |
Michael T. Hermsmeyer
Member From: Branson, Mo 65616 USA
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posted 09 February 2003 03:46 AM
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Thanks Bobby, I am going to print this out and take it with me to the theatre. I have about two hours between shows that should give me enough time to experiment and put it back if I don't like it. I might try what you mentioned about the C6 4th pedal rods if the vertical is too hard to use. I wish those things were height adjustable. Any thoughts there, besides duct tape and a 2x4, LOL.
Anyway Thanks everyone, I'll let you know how it goes.
Hey Jeff, is there any way to upgrade a '92 Lashley LeGrande to LeGrande III specs? I assume that the changers would have to be completely replaced, but what about everything else? Is something like that possible?
Thanks, God Bless,
Michael T.Sorry Allen, I feel like I kinda took over your post. But I hope that this info is as valuable to everyone else as it is to me. I'll probably have the change built into my next steel regardless of how much I'll be using it. Looks like a new standard change.
Thanks.
[This message was edited by Michael T. Hermsmeyer on 09 February 2003 at 03:49 AM.] |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 09 February 2003 09:50 PM
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Carl, thanks so much for the kind words.However I can assure you everyones job is secure. Let me say up front that I don't recommend my copendent to anyone.It's just a set-up that I enjoy playing.
Pedals 1,2,and 3 standard Emmons with the exception of pedal 3.I also raise string 8 a full step with pedal 3 or C pedal.
Pedal 4. I lower strings 5,6,and 10 a whole tone. LKL E's to F
LKR E's to Eb
LKV B's to A. No 1/2 stop at this time.I half pedal the knee for the Bb notes.Having 14 hole bellcranks help make this more accurate. RKR. Both F#'s to G to G#. Also Eb to E
RKL. Eb to D to C# and 9th string D to C#
Staggered (RKL) I have this one positioned out front where I have to reach just a little to get to it.This way it's out of my way when working from (RKR to RKL).Also I have the changes set high in the bellcranks so this knee has very short travel.The changes for
(RKL) staggered are. 6th string G# to F# with B pedal split.I also have string 7 rodded to lower 1/2 tone.I tune this down for a few things and back it off for others.Kinda depends on my mood. Carl, I hope you can make sense of this.Folks,don't let my rambling fool you. I really am much better at playing than writing. ------------bb[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 09 February 2003 at 10:06 PM.] |
Michael T. Hermsmeyer
Member From: Branson, Mo 65616 USA
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posted 18 February 2003 12:32 AM
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Ok, Bobby, I re-did my LNV to lower 5 and 10 a whole tone. Along with my RKL which lowers 6 a whole tone, I have the Franklin change. It's real purdy, but kind of hard to get both those knees at the same time. So I have decided to order the parts to add this change to my 4th pedal instead.
Thanks for all your help.
God bless,
Michael T.Oh and all you LeGrande players, it's a good idea to keep a 7/64th allen wrench in your pick pouch or tool kit. LOL. It's not just for Push-Pulls anymore. Reffering to the original post, Allen, I would go ahead and add the Franklin change to your new steel. It only requires a couple of inexpensive extra parts, and it is real purdy. You may not use it much but it will always be there and a future buyer may like it as well. Could be a good selling point should you ever decide to sell your new Zum. ------------------
UTILITY MAN PRODUCTIONS
'73 EMMONS D10 FATBACK, '92 EMMONS D10 LASHLEY LEGRANDE,
'85 DOBRO 60DS, '95 DOBRO F60S,
'95 MELOBAR CUSTOM, 1955 FENDER TRIPLE NECK STRINGMASTER. EVANS, FENDER, PEAVEY,
and MESA BOOGIE Amps. [This message was edited by Michael T. Hermsmeyer on 18 February 2003 at 12:34 AM.] [This message was edited by Michael T. Hermsmeyer on 18 February 2003 at 12:39 AM.]
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