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Author
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Topic: How many are deleting the low C string on C6?
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Nick Anderson
Member From: IL
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posted 05 February 2003 11:06 PM
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Just interested to see if this is a thing that a lot of people are going to or if it is just a few. Any big name players doing this? Thanks,
Nick Anderson |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 06 February 2003 12:53 AM
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Curly Chalker once told me that regardless of whatever his pedal set-up was, he would still tune his C6 in this fashion, from the bottom: A-D-F-A-C-E-G-A-C-E. Unless he has changed lately, Stu Basore tunes this way, however; I don't know of anyone else who does! "Big John" http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 06 February 2003 06:19 AM
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Many years ago, when I was playing full time, heavy into studying everyone's setup, and also heavy into Curly's playing (although I still can't touch any of it), I set up my D-12 with his C6 tuning. I had the above setup on the bottom strings and put a D and G on top.To me, it was very good for playing the P8 and P5 stuff, as the pedals were easier to push. However I did miss the slurs of the Boo-wah pedal  . Then I saw Buddy Emmons in concert, was totally floored by his magnificent playing and effortless use of the C6 pedals (when he used them), and switched back to the standard setup.  I recently tried the middle D (C# on B6) concept on both a 12 (without the low B) and 13 string (with the low B) Universal, but missed the chord strums and "standard" licks that I have played for 30+ years, so I went back to my D-12. ------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 (coming soon)=-
Stereo Steel rig w/Boss GX-700
IVL SteelRider w/JV-880 |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 06 February 2003 06:46 AM
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I've read somewhere that Terry Crisp among others had dropped the low C and added the D note in his tuning. I don't play a C6th but I do use a type of Universal which is the same thing as what you're talking about. I don't have the low B string and have a C# tuned between my 8th string E and my 10th string B. I don't think I'd ever go back to the regular U-12 again and if I ever had a C6 I'd probably use this set up (low to high) F A C D E G A C E D.......------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 06 February 2003 07:55 AM
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Yes, BE and a few others are, or have tried dropping the low C and adding a D note between the middle C and E notes. But I believe the standard by FAR is what it has been for years.I really don't see this becoming standard for a very long time, if ever. It simply messes up too many things that most don't want to give up. carl |
Jay Jessup
Member From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
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posted 06 February 2003 08:10 AM
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What I have done on one of my steels is put that D pitched between the C and E on the 10'th string in place of the low C, it's out of sequence and somewhat awkward to use there but it's also out of the way for normal C6 stuff and you don't have to change anything under the guitar to try it out. |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 06 February 2003 08:56 AM
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Carl, The last I was aware of what BE was doing with respect to experimenting with the middle D is that he had yet to figure out what the pedal pulls would be. I am not aware of where this project stands, or even if he has ever made a recording or played live with this altered tuning, or totally abandoned it. Do you have any info?
Thanks .. Jeff |
Reece Anderson
Member From: Keller Texas USA
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posted 06 February 2003 08:58 AM
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I have always used a C note on the bottom of my Bb6th. (which would of course be like a D note on a C6th) I can still play a major chord with the root on the bottom, and to do so I lower my D (4th string)a whole tone and my F (7th string) a half tone and play two frets back from any chord. To achieve the same thing (D chord open)on a standard C6th with the D note on top, play the 1st,4th, 5th and 10th string with the 5th pedal engaged. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 06 February 2003 09:35 AM
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I dropped the low C on my Williams when I added the "middle D" a few months ago.
This week I changed my "pedal 5" (actually pedal 2 on the crossover) to lower the 10th string a step and a half: F down to D instead of up to F#. This gives me the root tone of that D9th chord, which seems to be more important (to me) than the F#. I really like this change. Combined with the middle D, it gives me a 1-5-b7-1 on the low 4 strings; very handy in rock music.
Also, I tune the whole neck up a step from standard, so that change is really an E - very "guitaristic" for the blues. I've been having a lot of fun with it.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 06 February 2003 at 09:39 AM.] |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 06 February 2003 09:41 AM
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I recently added Paul Franklin's 5th pedal changes to my guitar, which can be seen here:
http://b0b.com/tunings/pf_c6.htm
It raises strings 7 C-D, 8 A-C, and 9 F-A. It's not a hard pull at all, and gives me the middle D note when I want it. |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 06 February 2003 10:11 AM
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Hi Jeff,No, I don't know how far BE has gone with the idea. Just know he was experimenting with it. I know the reasoning behind it. It is the same thinking that precipitated the D note for the first string in lieu of the G note. It is a long way from C to E (musically) and yes, there are times I would love to have it; as I am sure BE does. But to give up that low C and D root on the 10th string and/or the low root of the boowah pedal, is simply too much for me to even consider dropping the C. And it DOES mess up the standard C6 voicings. The idea of putting it lower; like on an 11 string guitar appears to have some merit. This I might go for. It would be like the so-called "chromatic" strings on E9th; albeit on the bottom instead of the top. Out of sequence of course, but nice to have. Often aiding a stacatto attack alternating thumb and fingers when picking. Time will tell which settles in as the standard. And finally this. It has been said that the PSG has "no standard". From years of study, I believe it IS indeed approaching that. If one talks to the manufacturers as I have, they are shipping more and more their stock set-up which has been posted several times on this forum. Sure there will always be some that dare to be different. But just like many things, evolution brings similarity more often than not. God bless you Jeff, BE and all you others out there, carl |
chas smith
Member From: Encino, CA, USA
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posted 06 February 2003 11:34 AM
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On a 10 string, I normally have an E, for E, G, A, C, .....and pedal it down to D or Eb. |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 06 February 2003 07:02 PM
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I just LOVE that C to A (boo-wah) change, and I have the pedal 5 change on a knee lever...which makes the D far more convenient. |
Byron Walcher
Member From: Ketchum, Idaho, USA
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posted 06 February 2003 08:56 PM
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How about lowering the middle E a whole tone on a knee lever like Dour Jernigan does. Does anyone have this and does it solve the problem?------------------
Lashley Legrande D10 8x7,Emmons Legrande 8x7, Sierra Lap-Top, Webb Amps
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Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 06 February 2003 08:58 PM
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I know that Curly Chalker used to use a "G" on the bottom or tenth string, that was back in the 60's however. |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 06 February 2003 11:27 PM
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I have dropped the low C so that I could add that middle D note.So far it has been working for me. There are many pro players that are into it but I feel uncomfortable speaking for anyone besides myself. Bob
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Ernie Renn
Member From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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posted 07 February 2003 04:55 AM
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The C6 tuning on Buddy's road guitar, (the black Emmons LLIII,) is fairly standard.To include the D in the middle he opted for a 12 string extended C6 tuning. ------------------
My best,
Ernie
The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 07 February 2003 05:35 AM
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My setup on B6 transposed to C6 would look like this: Basic tuning low to high:
F A C D E G A C E DPedal changes are as follows: Pedal 1...Raises the 3rd string C to D and the 4th string A to B. Pedal 2...Raises the 2nd and 6th strings E's to F and raises the 7th string D to D#. Pedal 3...Lowers the 5th string G to F# and raises the 10th string F to F#. Pedal 4...Lowers the 7th string D to C#, lowers the 8th string C to B, and lowers the 10th string F to E. Knee lever...lowers the 3rd string C to B. That pretty much does it and the normal combinations seem to work out OK for what I do but I'm no great 6th player so what do I know ------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 07 February 2003 07:57 PM
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quote:
How about lowering the middle E a whole tone on a knee lever like Dour Jernigan does. Does anyone have this and does it solve the problem?
I have it set up on a floor pedal and occassionally activate it but it is not part of my standard copedent. Doug Jernigan uses it often for a perfectly voiced 6/9 chord with the 9th string root. He also uses it with pedal 6 so that he has the tonic on the 2 (E) string as the lead melody with the 6/9 chord underneath. This pull is not a common pull and having a separate string for the D is extremely rare among major C6 players, Terry Crisp being the one well-known exception. If you want some more details, ask Ricky Davis. He is in C6 country (Texas), knows all the players, and can fill you in on the copedents of the major C6 players. If you have the option, it is, IMO, far more useful to have a pedal pull (knee lever preferable) that gets you an F note. |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 08 February 2003 01:31 AM
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Ok since you asked...ha...
I know of NO Texas steel player that has a
"D" note in the middle of their C6th open tuning.
Yes many may lower the middle E(like I do) to D........but there ya have it.....
Ricky |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 08 February 2003 05:34 AM
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Ricky,
Does Terry Crisp still play with a D string? If not, do you know when and why he stopped using it? Thanks .. Jeff[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 08 February 2003 at 05:37 AM.] |
Dan Tyack
Member From: Seattle, WA USA
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posted 08 February 2003 08:05 AM
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I took off the low C because for what I do on this neck the low D is a lot more important. You really have to play with it for a while to understand it, but for me it is as important as having the fixed A notes in the C6th tuning. As a caveat I don't really play 'C6th' on this neck, I just try to play music. I really don't care who else uses it, but I know it works for me. ------------------
www.tyack.com
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rhcarden
Member From: Lampe,Mo / USA
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posted 08 February 2003 09:06 AM
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------------------
Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7
[This message was edited by rhcarden on 08 February 2003 at 09:07 AM.] [This message was edited by rhcarden on 08 February 2003 at 10:38 AM.] [This message was edited by rhcarden on 08 February 2003 at 11:40 AM.] [This message was edited by rhcarden on 09 February 2003 at 07:42 AM.] |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 08 February 2003 09:33 AM
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I'm sorry Jeff; I don't know if Terry is still using that or not...
Ricky
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Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 08 February 2003 12:19 PM
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Nick Anderson asked quote:
Any big name players doing this?
Dan Tyack responded quote:
I really don't care who else uses it, but I know it works for me.
Dan, you are more than welcome to not care who else uses it, but the original poster (Nick Anderson) asked this perfectly legitimate question, and the thread has been trying to answer that question. The point of your post with respect to this topic eludes me.
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Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 08 February 2003 03:49 PM
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To answer Bill's original question, Dan Tyack is the only "big name" player I know of who has actually removed his 10th string to add another string in the middle of his C6th neck. ("Big name" meaning with major recording and touring credits to his name.) Bob Hoffnar has also done it, but he's a relative newcomer to the steel world.
Doug Livingston (another "big name") uses the middle D, but it's on a 12 string - he still has a low C.
Buddy Emmons (the biggest "big name") still performs with a low C string. Many players use non-standard knee levers to fill the midrange "gap" in the standard tuning, while many others don't see it as a problem at all.
I don't think that there's much of a trend to remove the low C string from the tuning. Most people use the C6 for western swing, traditional jazz and bop. There are some very well-established chord positions in those musical forms that require the low C string.------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic |
John Hawkins
Member From: Onalaska, Tx. on Lake Livingston
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posted 08 February 2003 04:58 PM
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I don't know how to do a repeat of a "QUOTE" like I see on the forum but what b0b says in the last paragraph of his post is what I will agree with . I still have the basic 8th pedal lowering the tenth on C 6th and will always . We play "Night Life" a lot and I cannot do it the way I like without lowering that tenth ! You folks know what spot in that song I'm talking about ! I also use it in many other ways as well ! John |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 08 February 2003 05:42 PM
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b0b,
With all due respect to Dan T., I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that it would be big name C6 players, like Emmons, Curly Chalker, Buddy Charleton, Jernigan, Tommy White, Gary Carpenter, Jim Loessberg, Terry Crisp, etc. that the poster wanted to know about, that is well-known C6 players. I'm beating this into the ground, which is par for the course for me, but when it comes to the C6 subject, as you well know, I just don't let up when I feel the subject has not been addressed accurately. If the poster is interested in any player that has recorded steel, or played with a known artist, then he should correct me on this. Otherwise, my assumption is that he wants players known for their C6 playing, not just steel players who do some C6. |
Bob Simmons
Member From: Trafford, Alabama, USA
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posted 08 February 2003 07:45 PM
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Boy, you guys opened up a can of worms. I lower my middle Eto D on a knee, and would be totaly lost without lowering the bottom C to A. I like blues and play a lot out of the A7th chord, I keep my base pedal #4, next to the D pedal and alternate back and forth. Also move the A's to B pedal to a lkl(c6) and use it a lot together with D pedal. Works great for old and the rock tunes also. |
Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 09 February 2003 07:58 AM
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BTW, it doesn't necessarily have to be famous icons. I would also include players like Jim Cohen, who is an accomplished, well-known C6 performer, on such a list of candidates whose copedents are worth discussing. |
Johnny Cox
Member From: The great state of Texas
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posted 09 February 2003 09:38 PM
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Several years ago I dropped the C for an A on the 10th string. Years later I changed again to make the 10th string a D note. I still use that same idea though I now play Bb sixth instead of C sixth. The C just always got in the way, any time I played the 10th string it was either raised to D or lowered to A. I plan to get a S12 sometime this year and it will be tuned as follows.
1)G
2)F
3)D
4)Bb
5)G
6)F
7)D
8)Bb
9)G
10)Eb
11)C
12)G
The 11 string version of this is what is on my triple neck, it is absent of the low G. The 10 string version that will be on my D10 MSA will drop the high and low G, strings 1 & 12.
------------------
The Steel Dr.
Johnny Cox P.S.D.
MSA Customer Service
www.msapedalsteels.com
www.thetimejumpers.com
[This message was edited by Johnny Cox on 09 February 2003 at 09:43 PM.]
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Jeff Lampert
Member From: queens, new york city
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posted 10 February 2003 07:31 AM
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Johnny,
Could you describe some of the concepts behind the use of the D string and A string? Thanks in advance. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 10 February 2003 at 07:35 AM.] |
Stephen O'Brien
Member From: Cortlandt Manor, NY, USA
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posted 10 February 2003 12:18 PM
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This thread has become a little over heated -- perhaps the UN should send inspectors out to search for CMD (Copedants of Mass Destruction). Seriously, I love seeing alternative approaches to the C6th neck, but I haven't read one thing yet here that explains what the advantage of inserting the D is. If anybody could explain that for me, I would greatly appreciate it. |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 10 February 2003 01:26 PM
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Stephen,
You could ask Mike Cass, Susan Alcorn or Buddy Emmons who all use the middle D tuning and personally explained the advantages and disadvantages that they found with it to me.
On a basic level you give up the low bass note of the chord and the classic C6 sweeps. You do get more voicing options in your middle range. It also makes modal scale playing a little easyer.
Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 10 February 2003 at 01:49 PM.] |
Stephen O'Brien
Member From: Cortlandt Manor, NY, USA
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posted 10 February 2003 03:17 PM
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Thanks for the reply, Bob. I know that you've been using the inserted "D" for quite awhile and like it a lot. I guess I could call Mike or a bunch of other people, but I just thought it would be useful to have it posted here. I really don't like to bother people with copedant questions -- it's just a little less interesting than talking about dental hygiene. So, I thought somebody might like to post an explanation here. Hope all is well with you. |
John Steele
Member From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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posted 10 February 2003 03:37 PM
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I've run chord voicing options in my head before, and run into the absence of a D note in the middle.
Jeff, try this: Tune your 7th string C up to D, and arpeggiate this voicing for a C major chord:
1-----------------
2------------7(6~-
3----------7~~~~~-
4-----------------
5--------7~~~~~~--
6-----------------
7------7~~~~~~~---<--tuned to D
8----7~~~~~~~~~---
9--7~~~~~~~~~~~---
10----------------
Except the interval between the root and the third on the 8th string, it's a stack of perfect fourths. You don't have to use all of them either. There are many versions and subtle alterations which are used to voice other sorts of chords.
Bob Hoffnar, I've always called these "fourth chords", but I've heard you refer to "quartal voicings" in here before. Same thing ?
I could certainly see it's usefullness.
-John |
James Winwood
Member From: New York, New York
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posted 10 February 2003 03:48 PM
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I love how this same topic constantly pops up on the forum every month or so it seems. Another "middle D" in disguise? Open mindedness is evolution. If anyone is interested I have dropped my low C. I raise the F up to G with a pedal with my right foot. As with all tuning stuff, there are trade-offs for both views. |
Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 10 February 2003 03:59 PM
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Hey John....I raise the 7th string on one of my steels from C to D with a pedal, and it's a great change for those cool stacked 4th chords that I love so much! IMO, thats more of the way that I personally would rather go. (vs a dedicated D string in the middle)Everyone keeps talking about missing the low C to A7#9 "Nightlife Boo Wah" chord too much, but to me, it's the 5th pedal raise from low C up to D that would be alot harder to live without. I think the biggest advantage of the dedicated middle D would be for sightreading without too much bar movement. At least thats where I find myself looking down at the neck from the sheetmusic the most. |
Johnny Cox
Member From: The great state of Texas
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posted 10 February 2003 04:05 PM
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I'll try to answer though I can't get very technical. When I had the C on bottom of C6th I always seemed to either have it raised to D or lowered to A. ith it tuned to D you can easily play a 4 over 5 cord. With it at A minor seventh chords have the root on bottom. At one point I had a pedal that lowered the F to D and the C to A, I seemed to always have it pressed so I just started tuning that way.------------------
The Steel Dr.
Johnny Cox P.S.D.
MSA Customer Service
www.msapedalsteels.com
www.thetimejumpers.com
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Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 10 February 2003 04:12 PM
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John,
It looks like 4th chords and quartal harmony are about the same thing.
One thing I bump into these days when I play with jazz guys coming up out of The New School and Berkeley is that the writing and playing is often based around slash chords (quartal harmony can be written as slash chords) . The standard swing/bop chords and extentions don't really apply to the composition and improv. The music is often in 2 keys at the same time and doesn't move around in the standard dominant to tonic way. Its sorta like the difference between Brahms and Debussey. I really don't know if the D string bit is any better for anything. In my case it makes it more simple for me to get at the notes that I want to play. Bob |
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