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Author
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Topic: Sho-Bud LDG breaking 3rd string too much!
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Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 18 February 2003 05:28 PM
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Help please, on this topic. I have an early eighties Sho-Bud LDG and have never seen a steel break the third string as much as this one does. I've tried 11 gauge, 10 gauge and all kinds of brands of strings, I also put a new change finger on that string and still breakin em.
I might get 4 days of continuous playing with the 11 gauge and maybe 6 days with the 10 gauge.
I used to have an early 70's LDG and I hardly ever broke strings on that guitar, 3rd string about every 4 or 5 weeks at 5 nights a week. If anyone has had a similar problem and knows how to fix it, man, I sure would appreciate the help on this matter, this is getting real expensive, not to mention frustrating.
Thanks A Bunch! Gene
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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
[This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 18 February 2003 at 05:31 PM.] [This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 18 February 2003 at 05:33 PM.]
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Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 18 February 2003 06:35 PM
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Gene, could anything have caused you to be tuning sharp of 440? If you are playing in a band with others who use a electronic tuner than this is likely not the problem, but on any pedal steel the 3rd string is stretched to the maximum at standard pitch.
I don't think one guitar is that much more prone to break the string than another. It would help to know where the string is breaking. Is it consistantly at the tuning key or the changer roller or somewhere in between?
Jerry |
Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 18 February 2003 06:53 PM
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Hi Jerry,
Thanks for your response. We tune to a standard 440 pitch, so I don't think that is the problem. As far as where the string is breaking, it is breaking at the changer end. I've never seen a steel break em like this one.
Thanks
Gene |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 18 February 2003 09:06 PM
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Gene - I just noticed where you live. Were you living that far north when you owned the older LDG? Maybe strings just don't cope very well with those winter temps! ------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande |
Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 18 February 2003 09:11 PM
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Funny reply Lee!!! Yes I was living here before when I had the other steel, we do have heat up here ya know.haha
I am originally from Nowata, Oklahoma and lived in Portland, Oregon fxor 20 years or so, but have been up here for 25 years now, nice people up here. Nice people on the forum too, always ready to help out when a fellow or lady needs help with steel guitars.
Thanks
Gene |
Robert Henderson
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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posted 18 February 2003 09:21 PM
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Jerry, I understand the third string can be troublesome for all steel players because we really ask that string to do more than it should. It was recommended to me to try winding an extra 6" of string around the third string key to help keep the part of the string that will tend to move away from the hole in the key, which can act like a saw sometimes. Mine break at the changer just above the ring mount wrap where the string lays on the remaining changer curvature (GFI S10 4/3). I break about one a week and is the only string that has ever broke on me in almost a year. Hope someone can give us some help here. Good luck- |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 18 February 2003 09:40 PM
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Gene, many of the string companies offer a reinforced .011. They seem to last a little longer for me. If you don't have access to any in your area I could send you a few to try and see if that helps.
Jerry |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 18 February 2003 09:49 PM
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It sounds like you have tried all the normal stuff already. I would bring the guitar to a pro repair guy and see if there is something that you are not noticing. If you really don't have much to do and can't get to sleep you can read these examples of forum wisdom: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/002667.html http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/002875.html Who knows, maybe a Lucky 7 would work after all. Bob |
Kenny Davis
Member From: Great State of Oklahoma
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posted 18 February 2003 10:24 PM
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Go to an .012 - That ought to do it. Use a .022W for your 6th. |
Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 18 February 2003 11:21 PM
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Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies. I do use reinforced strings already , so I know thats no the problem. Kenny, you said to go to a.012, wouldn't that be worse than going to a .010, I mean the .011's barely stay on for a couple of days, why would a .012 stay longer, since it's a heavier gauge, I 'm just asking? Thanks
Gene[This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 18 February 2003 at 11:22 PM.] |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 19 February 2003 02:55 AM
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Gene, that is an excessive amount of breakage for sure.Do wrap about six inches around the tuning peg,and it it understood that you are using strings for Steel guitar. Also please check your bridge saddle for a bur and check the roller to be sure it is actually rolling.More often than not it is a physical defect like a bur or stiff roller causing friction. It is common to clean the roller and polish the bridge with each string change. good luck
tp |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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posted 19 February 2003 04:05 AM
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Gene B.,The highest point of stress is just an inch or so, from the top of the changer finger, and extending in the direction of the tuner keys. I can't think of anything in our world, that has caused so much inconvenience, as the .011 string that is brought to an (A) pitch on steel guitars. It has been said that "It goes with the business", or something or other refrainment.
Just as you would be wary of a person with a whip in his/hand, I became wary, and developed the "LUCKY 7." I've submitted pictures to be shown, but there has been a delay in posting. I'm not opting to crowd in by seeking a wide range of interest by others who are currently frustrated with breakages. I'm merely announcing that no 3rd strings have snapped in well over a year. Prior to the "LUCKY 7", I've taken my share of "whippings". Gene, I wanted to stress a point before I sign off. The thought did enter my mind that by changing finger picks, (accept none, but the best), you may experience less breakage. Examine the picks carefully, to determine whether or not, there are existing right angle cutting edges, that resist a smooth passage over plain strings. The last concept that might very well bear influences, is the style of "attack" on the strings. If you pick with less force, and compensate by a volume increase, this also, may very well improve the string's life span. Bill H.
[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 19 February 2003 at 04:10 AM.] |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 19 February 2003 06:07 AM
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quote:
why would a .012 stay longer, since it's a heavier gauge
The theory is that the bigger diameter gives more metal so it will take longer to break. I tried a couple .012" strings but they broke quicker than an .011". It seems to depend on the individual guitar. quote:
The highest point of stress is just an inch or so, from the top of the changer finger, and extending in the direction of the tuner keys.
Bill, I thought the most stress was at the top of the changer, right where the string touches. Can you explain your theory? |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 19 February 2003 07:01 AM
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Bill Hankey, I have a great idea. What if you sent Gene a Lucky 7 and let him field test it and give us all the results. You could possible prove your invention and help Gene at the same time.
Jerry |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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posted 19 February 2003 07:32 AM
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Jim S.,Yes, I believe I can. When I entered the post entitled, "A Bent String Is A Spent String", most of the stress relevancies were stressed in a gradual culmination by explanatory entries. At the end of the exchanges, by forum members we were still focusing on the terribly critical 90 degrees bend on most earlier models. The words that are most fitting are, "Undue LEVERAGE", found at the changer's apex. If you look at the string near the changer, when the (B) pedal is pressed, (wear glasses) there will be a subtle stretching that can be observed. This stretching occurs naturally, just as a tug-of-war rope is the tightest between a group of competitors. Noting that the "pull" is from one end only, accounts largely for the quandary that exists. I submitted a solution in a post, whereby my "GOLO" will take the notoriety out of the string breakages, just as the "LUCKY 7" has done for me. It would be based on a system that treats the 3rd string as you would any nuisance or refractory entity. Thwart the notion that a particular mechanical movement must be done in a special way. Jim, thank you for your colorful input. Good luck with your new Fessenden steel guitar. Bill H.
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Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 19 February 2003 07:35 AM
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Thanks Bill. My new Fessy has arrived  but I've been too busy at work to spend much time with it yet.  |
Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 19 February 2003 08:11 AM
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I also like the 12 gauge string for the 3rd.
I have better luck with breakage and also I like the fuller, richer tone. I don't think it being a LDG has anything to do with the breakage problem.
Erv[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 19 February 2003 at 08:12 AM.] |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 19 February 2003 08:46 AM
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Never had any luck with 9s or 11s. Only 10s. Maybe something about the "molecular" stuff..If they are breaking at the apex of the changer, maybe there's a "groove". Seems to me that I emeryed mine a couple times and I quit breaking them weekly. If they're breaking at the slot, maybe there's a rough edge there.. |
Kenny Davis
Member From: Great State of Oklahoma
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posted 19 February 2003 09:20 AM
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Gene - The .012 works best for me on my Pro II. I've been using that size for years. Besides having a better tone for me, the larger string takes less movement to bring it up to proper pitch. Sounds crazy, but it works. Check with Ricky Davis, and he can give you more in-depth tech explanations than I can. |
Jimmie Brown
Member From: Fayetteville, NC, USA
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posted 19 February 2003 09:27 AM
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Gene,I know what you are going through.I had the same problem on a sho~bud pro model i use to have.It seemed i was replacing one a week at best.I have no idea what the problem is,maybe Skip could tell you what to do.give him a try.you told me that you were happy with the sound of that guitar and i know that mine sounded great,wish i had it back for that reason.......later
Jimmie
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Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 19 February 2003 01:09 PM
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Thanks for the replys fellows.
Well there are no burrs and no grooves and I am using reinforced .011's and I just put a new changer on about two weeks ago and frankly I just don't understand it. I've been playing forty years and never seen a steel break the .011's like this one. I mean, I do expect to break the 3rd's about every two weeks or so, but not every three or four days. I do love the sound of this axe though, to me, it can't be compared to to alloy necks, the wood is so much warmer. Anyway,fellows, you guys are a bunch of gret guys and I do appreciate all the help I have received, Thanks againGene ------------------
If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
;) |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 19 February 2003 01:54 PM
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Have you tried a spritz of silcon lubricant
where the string meets the changer? Any extra friction caused by groove wear might be a partial cause. Just a educated mechanical guess. But it seem logical. |
Gino Iorfida
Member From: Oakdale, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 19 February 2003 02:20 PM
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Just a curiosity, (forgive me, since I've never worked on a shobud), but is it possible, that the pedal stops for the b pedal are set too short, which would not allow you to have any slack, such that even when the pedal is not pressed, the finger is already starting in the pull position -- causing a sharper angle of bend on the string |
Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 19 February 2003 02:32 PM
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Nope that's not the case either Gino, but thanks for the reply.
Gene------------------
If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
;) |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 19 February 2003 03:00 PM
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I've been using .012 guage strings for over ten years on both Emmons guitars, Legrandes and p/p's and now with a Sho-Bud. To me it's just a better string to work with all around. I've had some last longer than others but usually they'd break about every week or ten days if I played every day a full gig say four hours or more. There has been a few that lasted a lot longer for some reason. The thing just wears out from rubbing on the finger is all I can see just like any other metal part will wear down from rubbing. I've heard of the axle shaft that holds the fingers on getting grooves in it from so much playing. A good synthetic oil gives my engines more miles in the vans and trucks I drive and I drive over 100,000 miles a year. I've got one that I gave my son that has over 400,000 miles on it and it's still going so good oil means something. To me if it moves I want it oiled no matter what it is. |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 19 February 2003 03:28 PM
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Could it be just a bad batch of strings? I've read here on the Forum where that has happened. ------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande |
Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 19 February 2003 04:13 PM
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Hi Lee,
I thought of that too, so I bought several batches of George L's, which are a very good string and still had the problem. I was putting one on the other night and it snapped right in the middle , not at the changer end and not at the tuner end, but right in the middle. In 40 years of playing I have never had a string do that, oh well, go figure.
Gene |
MARK GILES
Member From: HAMILTON, TEXAS
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posted 20 February 2003 06:05 AM
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Lloyd Green says this works for him. Thread the string through the brass ferule of the string creating a loop. Put this loop on the string pin(holder). It lets the string lay flat over the changer. My guitar has the slots and not the pin, so I haven't tried this. However, I haven't experienced a lot of string breakage. |
Gino Iorfida
Member From: Oakdale, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 20 February 2003 06:10 AM
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Have you checked the roller nut area? if the roller is binding at all, it will cause the string to start to twist (i.e. when you break a string, does the string kinda lay flat, or is it curled like a corkscrew?) Even though the breakage is at the changer end, the twisting would cause the strign to break at the point of the most stress-- the changer... Also what they say about adding the extra wraps around the tuning key is vital-- I never thought it could affect the changer end, but for some reason it does... maybe the extra wire on the post acts as a 'shock absorber' of sorts, I dont know... Anyways, I'm sure you've checked both of these things, but next time you snap a string, double check them, what would it hurt. |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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posted 20 February 2003 07:29 AM
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Gene,After reading Gino's reply, I felt the urge to comment on his thoughts concerning your interesting dilemma. Everyone enjoys trying to solve riddles, and I think that Gino would score pretty well in that department. As for the .012 plain string subbing for an .011, I'm not buying into that theory. The educated foot can easily detect the spongy resistance that prevails, when the .012 is forced to pull up to the (A) note frequencies. I didn't like that "feel", and replaced it with the what I feel is a better choice - the .011. Your post is overrun with advocates, who would emphasize its advantages. How many times in life have you seen situations following a trend, and then quickly switch direction as trial and error erodes the misconceptions? I feel strongly that the .012, is not the answer, which btw can tear at your knuckles with greater force when it snaps, should its tenacity unleash its "vengeance" on your dermis. Bill H.
[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 20 February 2003 at 07:37 AM.] [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 20 February 2003 at 10:59 AM.] |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
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posted 20 February 2003 07:36 AM
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quote:
The educated foot can easily detect the spongy resistance that prevails,
So use the ignernt foot. Works for me. |
Kenny Davis
Member From: Great State of Oklahoma
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posted 20 February 2003 08:34 AM
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Yeah, that .012 is probably just a fad. |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 20 February 2003 09:42 AM
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Your ShoBud is a 24" scale and the .012 is the better guage for that pitch on that scale....and if your scale(like lloyds '73 LDG) is over 24 inches...than the .011 or .011 1/2 is a better choice.
If the string breaks right in the middle..than you have a bad roller...or it's a bad string.
If the string goes for 4 or 5 gigs...that's pretty good and normal....and if you had a guitar that lasted longer..."different guitar".
Sorry your not getting the distance out of this string on this particular guitar...but I'm happy with 4 gigs on this string on any guitar...ha....but than again...I hit that pedal probably more than the average player...
Ricky |
Bill Hankey
Member From: Pittsfield, MA, USA
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posted 20 February 2003 11:26 AM
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Gene,Before this thread gets scuttled into a trivializing mode, please allow me to venture a guess that may very well hit on the solution. With absolute certainty, press as hard as is reasonable, on the "B" pedal, but with sufficient force to bring the .011 up as far as it can possibly go. With tuner in hand, tell me that the pitch doesn't go one cent above the "A" note. The plot will definitely take on new credence, if this is so. Bill H. |
Gene H. Brown
Member From: Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, Canada
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posted 20 February 2003 03:54 PM
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Hi Ricky,
So you are saying that for my 24 " scale, which I think it is, it's an early 80's model, that the .115 might do the trick? I've never tryed an .115 or .12 on this axe. Will try this for sure.
Thanks for the info guys.And to Bill Hankey, yes it does go a little sharp, pretty close to 1 cent as you said.
Thanks
Gene
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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!
[This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 20 February 2003 at 04:04 PM.]
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Tom Hodgin
Member From: greensboro, n.c. u.s.a.
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posted 20 February 2003 04:43 PM
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Gene, I play two gigs a week and practice everyday...I change the 3 and 5 before every show...With the amount of money we make today, what's a couple of bucks a week for strings ??? Since we don't have a solution for this problem, this works for me....tom |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 21 February 2003 01:08 AM
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Yes Gene> if you have a ShoBud...it is a 24" scale.
Lloyd's LDG is a very rare longer scale ShoBud..and the ShoBud Permenant was longer than 24"> but other than that...all ShoBuds were/are 24" scale and should have a .012 on it.
Make sure the roller is rolling properly.
Make sure you wrap the string two times on one side of the string coming through the hole on the tuning key post and then 5 or 6 wraps up the post towards the tuning key> and either use a Jagwire made string or Ernie Ball.......and tune her right on up....and no prob.
I have snapped every other brand string at one time or another(not saying they all do that all the time)....but I have never snapped a Jagwire or Ernie Ball string right out of the pack and right on up to G#.
Ricky |
Brad Burch
Member From: Athens, Ga USA
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posted 21 February 2003 06:47 AM
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I had an 80's model LDG that broke third strings pretty regularly. It wasn't too bad though, maybe one every couple of weeks. I just bought a bunch of .11 and kept them in my seat. I loved the guitar though. I have a Marlen D10 now and have yet to break a third string but I have broken a 5th string once. I notice that the angle of the strings over the Marlen changer is a whole lot less than that of the Shobud. On the Shobud I tried a .12 on the third once. It broke as fast as the .11 but cut my right hand pretty bad when it snapped. There is a lot of tension on there with a .12. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 21 February 2003 10:51 AM
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Gene, definitely try the .0115 string from Jagwire (available right here on the Forum). I believe they put an .0115 in the Lloyd Green string set. On all steels I always found the .011 strings to be weak and unblanced sounding with the rest of the strings. So I tried .012. These didn't break any more often, but were unbalanced in the opposite direction, too loud. Then I discovered Jagwires .0115 strings. Perfect balance in sound, and they break much less often than either of the other two.Another suggestion is to check if your pedal action for the 3rd string is different on your new guitar. If it is shorter and quicker, this could explain the increased breakage. If none of this helps, consider switching to saxaphone. I have never broken a string on mine, no matter how many hours I play the damn thing. ------------------
Student of the Steel, and cheap instrument connoisseur: customized 1970 Sho-Bud Maverick, Fessy S12U, Emmons S12 E9 P/P, Nashville 400, Fender Squire, Peavey Transtube Supreme into JBL 15", 1968 Gibson J50, '60s Kay arch-top, 7-string Raybro, customized Korean Regal square-neck, roundneck Dobro 90C, 1938 Conn Chu Berry tenor sax, '50s Berg mouthpiece, Hamilton upright piano. You make it, I'll play it (more or less)
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