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Author
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Topic: U-12 chord finder for an E9\C6 mind
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David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 26 February 2003 12:05 PM
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Hi all. I would like a chord finder for universal 12. I have a lesson on one monday, but I have been studying E9 / C6 because that's what I am getting.
More specificly I want to get as close to the C6/A7 lapsteel tuning as quickly as possible monday. Once I can get to where I am familiar, then I can muck around with it.
My teacher is cool, and the only steeler within 4 hours drive, but he has very little english and my french is not like I would prefer. So I am asking this here, so I have time to think about it before monday. Thanks all.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 February 2003 at 03:01 PM.] |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 26 February 2003 01:20 PM
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U-12, with the E lower lever engaged, is just like C6th except that everything must be played 1 fret higher.
The C6/A7 lap tuning is the same as P8 on the pedal C6th. On a U-12, you lower your E-s with the knee, then push P8 and you have it, except that you need to play 1 fret higher.
Hope that helps. See this page.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 26 February 2003 02:09 PM
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OUI mon amie exactly what I was looking for, get grounded then see what can be changed. I was pointed by Ed Packard to his comprehensive theory lesson. Incredible... like the 1st 6 months of Berklee CoM on a web page.
But I will note that 1/2 of the 1st semester students at Berklee stay home after xmas. And 1/2 of those left don't come back the next year.
But ya can't let it "slide" by like that on a PSG.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 February 2003 at 02:29 PM.] |
Cory Dolinsky
Member From: Old Saybrook, Connecticut, USA
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posted 28 February 2003 06:07 AM
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i went to berklee and will finish my last year there in sept. the problem with theory there is they make it way to confusing. Ill sum it up a second. know the diatonic scale in and out. then take everything from there. harmonic minor = ionian #5
melodic minor = ionian #1
harmonic major= ionian b6 all the chords and scales can be taken from altering each mode throughout example: Dorian #4 etc, for harmonic minor |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 28 February 2003 06:24 AM
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Hi Cory Congratulations on nearly 4 years of Berklee! This is no small accomplishment. And will be invalubale on the PSG.
I went there myself back in the early 70's but I also had a great friend who taught me more in practical working theory than I ever learned there.
I have 2 friends who were 4 year composition majors. They each said only 7-8 people from their freshman class were still with them.
My friend James Voris played 17 instruments when I played with him. And we gigged with Alan Dawson a couple of times. James played 9 instruments WELL those nights. Sometimes soloing on 5, plus piano on the same song.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 February 2003 at 01:54 PM.] |
John Sluszny
Member From: Brussels, Belgium
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posted 28 February 2003 12:28 PM
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David.
Un ami.Une amie.Mon ami.Mon amie (instead of "Ma amie" which doesn't sound good)
Good luck MY FRIEND (easier in English) 
JS |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 28 February 2003 02:01 PM
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Sorry to offend the francophones. I never spoke or wrote french before I ended up in France.
And with a bit of dyslexia worse it's.
But I am here and do the best I can. Desole, pardon mon mauvais français![This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 February 2003 at 02:02 PM.] |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 03 March 2003 02:51 PM
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I was on the U-12 doing some booklearin' things and thought I was going mad... untilmuch later he mentioned the C and D pedals weren't there... it went A B E F G.
Brave new world, Ooh la la.
100 steelers 90 set-ups |
Mike Delaney
Member From: Fort Madison, IA
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posted 03 March 2003 09:11 PM
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Cory-I'm a Berklee boy myself, congratulations in advance on your upcoming graduation. Let me make sure I follow your example (they didn't teach it this way about 30 years ago). For anyone who doesn't know the Greek modal names, Ionian is the major scale. Let's assume we're in C. If I follow you correctly, Ionian #5 equals A Harmonic Minor, #1 is D Melodic Minor, and b6 is C Harmonic Major. Is this what you were saying? Thanks-Mike |
Cory Dolinsky
Member From: Old Saybrook, Connecticut, USA
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posted 04 March 2003 04:03 PM
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hi. mike
definitely a major scale with a raised 5th.
so if your in the key of c you have a major scale with a g# instead of a g. just keeping plugging in that formula for each scale or mode. im not sure how you look at musci theory, but what you said about the harmonic minor was correct, the A harmonic minor, because you have that g# there no g anymore. look at autumn leaves it is in the key of G or e min (school way) but they alter the 3 chord. the B min7 becomes a B7 which is harmonic minor because you raised the D to a D# then it resolves to the emin. i really like the sound of the altered B7 phrygian #3 if your use the formula. i always look at all the modes altered, but the school insists on taking you to the 6min.
Cory |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 04 March 2003 04:38 PM
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Mike and Cory Hi You guys play PSG I assume since your here. How are your instruments set up to do this advanced theory.
I am setting up a D-10 next week and trying to pin down exactly what I want done. I have a local teacher, but only on a odd U-12 set up.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 05 March 2003 at 04:52 AM.] |
Mike Delaney
Member From: Fort Madison, IA
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posted 05 March 2003 06:54 AM
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David-I'm not the guy to ask how to set your guitar up. PSG is not my primary axe, and I've only had one about 4 years, so I'm no expert. Be glad to answer theory questions though. |
Mike Delaney
Member From: Fort Madison, IA
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posted 05 March 2003 07:08 AM
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Cory-So Berklee still sticks with that Harmonic minor theory for ii-7b5/V7b9/i-. I never did like that as well as the way Monk approached it concerning parent scales.F#-7b5=sixth mode of A jazz minor
B7b9=seventh mode of C jazz minor Have done George Russell's course since then, The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization, which was quite enlightening. All 12 tones are available, with a place for everyting and everything in its place. He still lives in Jamaica Plain, and is on the faculty at New England Conservatory. If you ever hear of him doing a lecture or something, it would be well worth your time. |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 05 March 2003 07:14 AM
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Well a chart of modes would be cool, to refresh what I have forgotten in 35 years LOL.
I write way beyond my theory analysis level.
But that makes no difference to me because my harmonic ear is there now. My sulfegio is the pits compared to the french. But you'll like this. Do is ALWAYS C and Fa always F etc.here.
Folk guitar books are written in Sol minor, La maj etc etc. Made me nuts when I first got here. So they all sing a C when they see Do, that has certain benefits.
But to transpose on the fly for a singer... fo'gettaboudit. |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 05 March 2003 07:23 AM
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Isn't it an amazing fact the the best steel players in the world never went to Berklee, Juliard, or any other shool of music. Most of them learned by the good old trial and error method. I know some guys who are well schooled musicians and teach very well but can't play a gig to save their life. Like the old saying goes, "THOSE WHO CAN PLAY, PLAY!! THOSE WHO CAN'T, TEACH..."------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 05 March 2003 08:52 AM
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Jerry I hate to say it... but some of the BEST gig's I ever played were with Berklee Profs. These guys aren't just theory gurus they are serious players... who also teach.
Berklee has it's ways and to some extent, particularly for the early years it is
taught the Berklee way.
But these guys also give their 2 cents to the students about practical playing.
Ever here The Wayfaring Strangers album? Matt Glaser Berklee prof. with Ralph Stanley no less.
Alan Dawson, the percussion dept creator, played with anybody good coming to town needed a rhythm section, like Dizzy Gillespe needing a pick up band with my old upright bass and theory teacher John Neves. I saw him with Dawson and Dizzy. Just awesome.
Rich Applman bass dept. head great player, I have played electric bass after him with his drummer Bob Gullotti from the Fringe. I played with Alan Dawson twice he played a drum solo, over a bossa, in 6/8, 3/4, 4/4 and 12/8 with each hand and foot doing a different time signature... and it was MUSICAL. Oh yes Gary Burton the vibist.
Some of these guys have families and hate the road.
So at Berklee at least that old saw, don't cut wood.
That said you can still be a brilliant player self schooled. Some people just have that brain. And all of them will likely give credit to several ole pals who talked shop with them for years bouncing ideas of each others heads between sets.
Trial and error is a large part of creativity anyway.
Berklee does give you a strong head start with all the stuff people have been coming up with long before you were born. It's an intense jump start for your creativity and might not really get out of you for 10 more years. But it sure can help you along that road.
But it's not for everybody and why should it be.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 05 March 2003 at 09:04 AM.] |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 05 March 2003 10:16 AM
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Cool? I agree there are exceptions to the old cliche but not where I live. I know guys who have a full schedule of students but can't kick off "Crazy Arms" to save their @$$. Anyway, have a great day...JH------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
Cory Dolinsky
Member From: Old Saybrook, Connecticut, USA
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posted 05 March 2003 06:32 PM
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jerry - well first ill start off with, im going to school there for the music therapy program to help handicapped kids, stroke victims etc in schools and hospitals and get the piece of paper so i can do this. But i sure did meet some great teachers there Mick Goodrick Mike Stern etc and of course there are teachers who shouldnt be teaching or playing music . there isnt a pedal steel department there but hopefully when i go back next year i can try to work somethin out. I like what Joe Wright says the more you know the more you can blow, if you think he cant play the steel , ill quit playing music tonight. Im talking about playing jazz and keeping music theory things simple which we were talking about earlier not playing country music. I guess you learn it then forget it and just turn off the lights and play. |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 05 March 2003 07:35 PM
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quote:
there isnt a pedal steel department there but hopefully when i go back next year i can try to work somethin out.
Mike Ihde is an instructor at Berklee and I thought he had a steel guitar course going there.  From the Berklee web site, here is his Faculty Biography: quote:
Mike Ihde
Associate Professor
Guitar
• B.M., Berklee College of Music
• Film composer for The Sun Dagger
• Author of Rock Guitar Styles and Country Guitar Styles, Hal Leonard Publications
• Performer/clinician on lap and pedal steel guitar
• Recipient of numerous songwriting awards
• Author of A Different Slant cassette and TAB book for lap steel
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b0b
Sysop From: Cloverdale, California, USA
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posted 05 March 2003 08:48 PM
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Boy, talk about topic drift! |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 05 March 2003 08:55 PM
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Well, U-12 chords led to modes, which led to Berklee, which led to Mike Ihde. Now we just need Mike to come on and explain how modes relate to chords and how they relate to the U-12 to complete the circle. |
Mike Delaney
Member From: Fort Madison, IA
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posted 05 March 2003 10:00 PM
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David-Thank you for your response. I came quite close to being offended by a couple of comments, and you saved me from having to dignify them with a reply. |
CrowBear Schmitt
Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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posted 05 March 2003 11:15 PM
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David,
you should look into Forum member Karlis Abolins's Guitar Map Display.
look him up in search and perhaps you'll find his thread or email him to get GMD
it's a good One.
you can include your copedant and you will find chords, scales and more....
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David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 06 March 2003 06:45 AM
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Hey b0b No problem with me for topic drift in this case. LOL. Berklee and modes is fine with me in relation to chord finding. Mike glad a save you some frustration. So many people here are helping minimise my frustration! Dignity can be over rated ... if it prevents you from learning! Mike Ihde I believe runs the official Buddy Emmons website, So that works for me.
Mick Goodrick Mike Stern what more can you say. Fine Fine players with their own defined styles, who teach.
Cory, your quite correct there are great teachers, and some who should run accountancies, not teach music. Great with the numbers, but no sense of how it aplies. Also very nice future gig for you, music therapy Bravo!
And the Joe Wright comments ; Wright on ! I was told at Berklee decades ago... shudder, learn everything and then forget it. It will then come out naturally.
CB I will definitly search for Karlis Abolins's Guitar Map Display. Thanks! We had a good 10 Am copedant analysis session this am, running on too much coffee, after an 8 hour session till to 4 am last night.
I clearly need LKL and LKR on the C6... two more levers in the middle. and something on RKL#2 but I don't know what yet. But RKL#1 has to move frontward an inch or so. I need a powerful C6. MY modes... aaah well I studied them and forgot all the specifics, but I know I play them without thinking about them. Now I am in PSG MODE!![This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 March 2003 at 06:48 AM.] |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 06 March 2003 06:56 AM
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quote:
Mike Ihde I believe runs the official Buddy Emmons website
Ernie Renn runs Buddy's site. |
Mike Delaney
Member From: Fort Madison, IA
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posted 06 March 2003 08:13 AM
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CrowBear-Thanks for the tip about the chord finder. I will check in to that for sure.I would like to add my applause to Cory for going in to music therapy. What a worthwhile and humane calling. Mike Ihde was just starting to bring country music to Berklee when I was there, and just starting out on PSG as I recall. Steve Plotkin played fiddle with him. A teacher named Hank Wictorowicz (?) had a ShoBud Maverick for sale that I wanted really bad, but I didn't have the cash. Another teacher had a 7 string Benedetto for $1,400! I didn't have the jack for that either. Dang the luck. |
CrowBear Schmitt
Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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posted 06 March 2003 10:01 AM
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David, Ernie Renn runs BE's site |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 06 March 2003 11:58 AM
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Ok but it seemed he was involved. It wasn't totally clear to me Oh well. |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 06 March 2003 12:01 PM
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Here's a link to a 6th tuning chord chart: http://dogriverpub.com/trap/chords.pdf Kudos to Trap Truly for posting this on his website at: http://dogriverpub.com/trap/trap.htm He lists string grips too, but in my expirience, you just need the pedal lever combos to get you started on your chord finding quest, then grab a handful of strings a "season to taste" as they say! Many cool voicings are there depending on the grip or "rake". For conversion to U12, count your string 12 as string 10, and count up from there. Depending on your tuning, the top three strings on U12 are what the C6th guys would call "G on top" (F# for us), "D on top" (C# for us [typically D# lowers to C# when you lower your E to Eb]), and in addition, S12U gets you the high G# (.011, B pedal). Neil Flanz also has an incredible C6th chord finding book, and his web site is: http://www.ambrec.com/Homepages/neil/neil.htm
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 06 March 2003 at 12:06 PM.] |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 06 March 2003 04:24 PM
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Neil's site didn't work, but Trap's chart is very useful. I imagine I will do every position on it as a cycle very slowly to find chords and practice picking and grips.
Merci[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 06 March 2003 at 04:25 PM.] |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 06 March 2003 11:00 PM
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Disclaimer:
I emailed Trap today about a chord position on his chart, and he emailed back saying there are a few mistakes in it.
Just an FYI. |
CrowBear Schmitt
Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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posted 07 March 2003 01:39 AM
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i found KA's Guitar Map Display http://home.attbi.com/~kabolins/guitarmap.html
or this one http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/001290.html |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 07 March 2003 03:18 AM
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Hi CB saw it, nice lil program. But it seems to be Win 98. I am mac's and one twin processor Win 2K 3D machine. I don't know if it will run on 2K. |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 07 March 2003 07:10 AM
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David
I've run Karlis' application on Win2K -- it's just a VB app and runs on most any Mickysoft platform.------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps |
Hans Holzherr
Member From: Ostermundigen, Switzerland
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posted 07 March 2003 12:34 PM
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David, you might check out my old Chordfinder program at http://www.aum.iawf.unibe.ch/port/ma/hh/CHORD.HTM
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Mike Delaney
Member From: Fort Madison, IA
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posted 07 March 2003 04:12 PM
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Hey, that chord finder of Karlis' is pretty cool. Haven't had much of chance to play with it yet, but methinks there will be much good use made of it. Good on Karlis for the program, and CrowBear for finding it! |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 08 March 2003 12:45 PM
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I installed Karls app no problem, but then installed TSSTalk ro make the PC talk to my MAc's and It freaked out and I haven't had the time to get my head back into PC land and suss it out.
PC totally dead Mac's running as usual. But I am sure it wasn't Karls App.
I'll see it some time. |
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