I don't believe two players having to tune differently has anything to do with Cabinet drop at all.

This anomaly is due to the old and boring debate about ET versus deviations from ET. In other words, If a player does NOT tune ET (and most don't) then the amount of shift from ET varies like crazy amongst players.

Here is an example. For most players tuning away from ET, they flattent the 3rds. But the problem is, some flatten them more than others. Some stay just under ET (440 ref). Yet others like myself go all the way to NO beats. And if you were to check (with a tuner), you would find given players go anywhere in between JI and ET.

So I feel it is here that is the cause of two players having to retune; rather than any problem with cabinet drop. This would mean that even with ZERO cabinet drop these "two players" would still retune to their respective method of tuning.

quote:

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Just because it sounds in tune to you does not mean that you are in tune.

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First, let's take the players with a "not so good" ear out of the equation. That done, and with all due respect, I can then beg to differ with this statement. How it "sounds", whether compared to itself, or compared to other instruments or voices, is everything! Let me make a statement here...totally circumstantial, but nevertheless undeniable. Nobody, but nobody, ever got fired because they "sounded good", but their notes didn't agree with some electrical device (a tuner), or some "mathematical formula". On the other hand, many players lose band jobs or session work because they just sound "out of tune"!!! The singer, the bandleader, the engineer, or the producer, don't really care what your tuner says. If it sounds good, you're in. And if it sounds "out"...usually, so are you.

Of course, the caveat here is...you have to have a good "ear". Without it, all the tuning charts, and all the tuners in the world, won't get you where you should be...(relatively) in tune. Not developing this "ear" is what prevents most players who play instruments of variable pitch (just about all instruments, except for keyboard-based instruments) from becomming masters.

Blinding speed, limitless theory knowledge, and wonderful taste, are all pretty much useless if it doesn't "sound good". The only exception to this rule would be if the musician had a very unique or particular style, such that people were willing to suffer through the various "atonalities" just to experience what the artist was saying in another context.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 March 2003 at 01:04 PM.]

Of course, it's easy to see if cabinet body flex affects your pedal steel. With a tuner in-line, pick any open string. Now while the string is still ringing, take your thumb and push down firmly on the center of the steel. If it's like most pedal steels, you'll notice a change on the tuner.

Inquiring minds want to know.

As far as tuning JI or ET my oldest and dearest friend is a piano tuner rebuilder for 35 years. I recorded him in NYC in january and he ended up giving a 45 minute lecture to all 3 studio engineers about their Yamaha grand. They took notes too. A piano is much harder to deal with tuning wise than a PSG, cabinet drop aside, But ultimately the same issues apply.
And even in a grand piano, there is an equivelent to cabinet drop, albeit not as bad.

A balancing of the tunings in all its states. For each piano and player/owner there are different ways to be right. Same for a PSG.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 11 March 2003 at 02:51 AM.]

After messing with my MSA Red Baron--Larry Bell warned me, I know--and couldn't get that 6th string to keep from going flat no matter what I did. And now I know what cabinet drop. Fiberglas is great for cars, not good for steels. It should have been sold as a pedal fiberglas. Someday, I might try a real steel.

If you tune by ear (i.e., take your Es from a tuner and tune everything else by ear), then cabinet drop mostly only affects playing open at the nut. That is because you will tune the pedal and lever stops to the unpedaled strings. For example, you tune the Es on strings 4 and 8 of E9 to a meter (straight up 440). When you mash the A and B pedals the Es typically drop about 2 hz (8 cents). But by ear you tune the A and B pedal stops to match those dropped Es. So the intervals are correct, but the whole chord is 2 hz (8 cents) flat. Playing with the bar a good player's ears will automatically compensate for that (you can't see that small difference in the bar, but your ears can hear it), and you will be on pitch with the other instruments you are playing with. Only when using the A and B pedals with no bar (open at the nut) will you be noticeably flat to the other instruments. A similar thing happens with the E lower lever, which causes cabinet raise to take the other strings slightly sharp. By ear you will tune the E lower lever stop to the other strings. The whole chord will be slightly sharp at the 0 fret, but the intervals will sound good.

If you play a lot open at the nut, you can help the AB pedal drop by splitting the difference. In the above example of 2 hz (8 cents) drop, you can tune the Es 1 hz (4 cents) sharp. Then the A chord with the AB pedals will be only 1 hz (4 cents) flat. Generally less than 5 cents off is acceptable. Of course now the E lower chord will be even sharper, but since the A and B pedals are use more often, that might be acceptable.

If you tune everything straight up ET, cabinet drop causes more problems, even when using the bar. You tune your Es 440. You tune your A and B pedal stops 440. Now, in your A chord with the A and B pedals down, the 5ths (the Es) are 438 and the root and thirds are 440 (8 cents difference). So the whole chord is off, and not just at the nut, but everywhere your bar takes the chord. A JI straight major chord has intervals 1,3,5 that should be 440, 437, 440 (the 3rd is 12 cents flat of ET). Tuning by ear to JI your A chord with the above cabinet drop will be 438, 435, 438. The intervals are correct, but the whole chord is 2 hz (8 cents) flat at the nut. If you tune ET you will have 440, 440, 438. The 3rd is 12 cents sharp of JI, but is right on for ET. But the root and 5th disagree by 8 cents, and this is everywhere, not just at the nut. Many people find this a very bad sounding chord. The 3rds are off (as with all
ET chords) and the 5ths are off. In other words everything is off.

You could split the difference with an ET tuning. Tune the open strings to 441, and the A and B pedal stops to 439. Now your E chord will be 441, 441, 441, and your A chord will be 439, 439, 439. All the intervals are straight ET and you are within 1 hz (4 cents) of ET at the nut on either chord. Of course, all the 3rds sound 12 cents sharp to JI ears.

You can work your way through all the pedal, lever and open string combinations this way. It is very complicated, because different open strings drop different amounts (generally the largest unwound and largest wound strings drop or raise the most), and raises cause cabinet drop while lowers cause cabinet raise. In some cases JI helps cabinet drop better, and in some cases ET helps it better. For the most commonly used straight major and minor chords, tuning the pedal and lever stops by ear or JI to the open strings gives good sounding JI intervals, but the whole chord may be slightly sharp or flat of the fret marker. ET will have more intervals off (both from JI and straight ET), but the chords will be closer to the fret markers, and closer to ET at the nut. Choose your poison.

One interesting mechanical thing I have noticed is that mashing harder on the pedals (within reason) does not cause more cabinet drop. That is because the pedals are achored to the pedal board and the legs. It does not appear to be the pedal rods pulling down on the middle of the cabinet that causes the drop. A pedal lower will cause cabinet raise. And a lever raise will cause cabinet drop. Thus, it appears to all come from string tension being increased or decreased.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 02 June 2005 at 10:01 AM.]

As far as cabinet drop, I think it is something we will have to live with. The problem is that we are tuning a maple top ( a very rigid surface) with the tension from a 10 to 12 strings on each neck. It is impossible to isolate the stresses from one string across the others on the guitar body. As you tune all of the strings up to pitch this effect is cumulative and the top of the guitar becomes a "stressed member". When this occurs changes from one string or from forces pulling on the cabinet (pedals and levers) impacts the cabinet. The only solutions would be to built a structure so rigid that it is impervious to the changes (such as MSA's carbon fiber millenium) or to have all of the axels and pedals/levers in a rigid sub structure and have the body of the guitar mounted to the substructure and have the only mechanical connection be through the pull rods into the changer. A possible third solution would be to build a "truss rod" into the cabinet that could be tuned to counteract the cabinet drop.

There is a slight problem with bar pressure. If you tune everything perfect open at the nut, then you put your bar on say the 8th fret, the bar pressure causes the different string guages to alter the intervals slightly. But checking this with a meter I find that there is less than 1 hz (4 cents) difference, and it is not worth worrying much about.