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Author
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Topic: Bobbe said tone was!!!
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Kenny Dail
Member From: Kinston, N.C. 28504
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posted 30 March 2003 11:04 AM
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Tone and what makes tone different can be argued and discussed all day long and we will be just as far apart with the solution at the close of the argument as we were when we started.Non pedal players use Jerry Byrd as a gauge for tone when playing our lap steels. Pedal players use Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, John Hughey Lloyd Green as gauges for good tone. This is neither good or bad. These are just gauges for someone else to see how close he can achieve their sound because they liked what they heard. When performing in a live situation, you strive for a "good tone" but you never seem to quite make it. The point I am trying to make is...in a live situation acceptance of a particular tone depends on how well your equipment cuts throught the mud of the other instruments and the ambient noise in that particulr emvironment. When we go out to hear Buddy Emmons and all our heros, they always seem to have a controled environment to perform in...ie, good sound systems, well informed and disciplined musicians to back them up and no drunks in you face...amd the list goes on... If you have a good professional level steel and amplification system with a delay and/or reverb...the rest is up to the player and his personal tase and touch...I dont think loading up your signal with a lot of fx can improve your tone beyond a certain point. Ask Buddy Emmons and Jerry Byrd what they are using. Technology has certainly improved since they arrived on the scene...but too many potatoes or not enough onions or vice vers can certainly destroy a good stew...and too much of this and not enough of that can be the difference between good and bad tone. Perfecting your technique and taste can do more for good tone than anything else beyond a good steel, amp and a delay/reverb. Just MHO.... . ------------------
kd...and the beat goes on... [This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 30 March 2003 at 11:17 AM.]
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BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 30 March 2003 11:51 AM
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Huh? |
Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 30 March 2003 01:09 PM
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Well.... I've always been one of the first to say that having all the most expensive gear in the world won't make a crappy player great. But now to be hearing some saying that the gear makes no difference at all, now I've heard everything. I guess if that's true, there are an awful lot of us who've wasted a lot money. I should've kept my first guitar, a $14.95 Stella instead of getting all those Fenders, Gibsons and Gretsches, since "the instrument has nothing to do with the quality of the music", I should be able to produce the same quality of music. I'm sure buying the more expensive instruments must be only an attempt to compensate for my lack of ability. Thanks Bobby for setting all of us straight! |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 30 March 2003 01:52 PM
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Jim, Whew! I'm glad you spelled Bobby right! Not to be confused with Bobbe. Well put Jim. I'm not confused anymore.
Where'd my ole' Maverick go? I knew I should have played it in Chattanooga.
Think of all the money I could have saved all these years on guitars. I think we should all get rid of what we have and all get Carter starters. No, too many knee levers on them, The Little Buddy, Maverick, Red Baron, this is all we need! Two by fours and bailing wire, all we need, it's all in the hands anyway!
Yup Jim, well I gotta' go to Home Depot, They have a sale on pine this week.
Then I'm going to the Opry house, gotta' go tell Porter that all he needs to sound like Bing Crosby is another microphone. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 30 March 2003 at 01:55 PM.] |
Joe Miraglia
Member From: Panama, New York USA
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posted 30 March 2003 04:24 PM
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My steel has lost it's tone! When I bought it it was ok ,some of the top road players where playing the brand I bought. The staff steel player on the opry started to play one,'boy what tone I had. Now he plays a different make-- I lost that tone. I need to see who is playing what, and run out and buy one Joe |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 30 March 2003 04:35 PM
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Yea Joe, I know exatctly what you mean,I'm getting ready to call Tommy now and see what he had for dinner. I'm sure that's the only thing I'd like. I hate it when he switches resturants, makes me think where we ate last month wasn't any good! He sold his Chevvy Van about the time I bought one. Darn, now I gotta' trade again! I wish he'd settle down so I can have some order in my life! |
Jim Bob Sedgwick
Member From: Clinton, Missouri USA
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posted 30 March 2003 04:38 PM
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Joe, Get me one also since you're going anyway. I owe you one.  |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 30 March 2003 05:26 PM
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Well....I'm real surprised some of the real "musicians" haven't spoken up. "Tone" is just that...bass, middle, treble. (Either that or every amplifier manufacturer since the beginning of time has labeled them knobs wrong! )"Tone" is what comes from the amp and the pickup. "Timbre" or "particular sound characteristics based on overtones or harmonics" is what comes from the instrument, itself. I really wish y'all would learn the difference. Thank 'ya kindly.
(Flame suit on...fire away.)
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Kevin Hatton
Member From: Amherst, N.Y.
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posted 30 March 2003 06:15 PM
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Donny, I to tend to agree with you. I think perhaps we have substituted tone for timbre. I'm always on a mission for both. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 30 March 2003 06:47 PM
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When you listen to an MP3 file through your computer speakers, is the "quality of the music" any different from the same song coming through your stereo? Is the music worse somehow when it comes through your car speakers than it is at a live concert.
No, I don't think so. The music doesn't change. The tone changes. The quality of the sound changes. But the quality of the music doesn't depend on the equipment used to produce (or reproduce) it.
Sound comes from instruments, amplifiers and speakers. Music comes from musicians. The quality of music lies in the musician's hands, nowhere else.
That's how I hear it, anyway.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 30 March 2003 07:03 PM
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Yes Donny, you are correct as ever, now the problem is getting everyone to understand this fact, some do and some just don't and never will "get it". So I give up.
Pete Burak didn't know, now he does. Some can learn, some can't. Timbre is the instrumens "Voice". Tone is treble, bass and all the things you do to the "Voice" timbre after it speaks! TONE IS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE VOICE HAS SPOKEN! All voices sound different, no matter what tone changes are made. Now get a steel guitar with a good voice and the rest is easy. What is so hard to understand here? This is basic music, first year, you know, 101!
Now, my secretary doesn't play a note, hardly, but she sounds better on a good guitar and different on different guitars, Just like everyone. All in the hands? Nope, a little in the way a note is attacked,sure, but the guitar has the voice, not the hands.
I'm getting phone calls from players all over Nashville about this post, most are laughing and wondering why this can't be understood by all. Some are say "Give up Bobbe, You are falling on deaf ears". I think I will, Larry Behm, thank you for starting this anyway,I guess. I've heard all about your sound, timbre. tone etc, all the way down here, Everyone says it's incredible and that you are a fanatic on sounding good. That's a good reputation to have. You have my respect Larry. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 30 March 2003 at 08:11 PM.] |
Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 30 March 2003 08:15 PM
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Yes, Donny is completely correct in diferentiating tone and timbre, but in everyday common English I think we all know that most all musicians commonly use "tone" to mean the tonal qualities of the sound of the instrument coming from the amp, or even from the sound-hole of an acoustic instrument. I personally have never heard anyone say, "That guitar really has a great timbre", always, "a great sound", or "great tone". I don't believe the actual semantic accuracy of specifying tone vs. timbre really is essential to this argument. The question as I understood it, was what really was most responsible for a great SOUND. Some are saying the TIMBRE of the instrument has nothing to do with it and it's all in the player, some are saying it's a combination of everything from the player, instrument, amp, technique, execution, heart and soul, etc. I think it's obvious by now I fall into the latter category. Bobby, I still don't know where you're coming from. Whether you want to discuss intrument timbre or final tone coming out the amp, I believe the subject was the quality of the SOUND, not the quality of the MUSIC ITSELF, which to me would include the level of musicianship, composition, quality of recording, etc. Your argument of good music on tiny speakers being of the same quality as a great sound system is...interesting. What is music? I thought it is primarily SOUND. Now, would you say the quality of SOUND in a car stereo is equal to a live performance? I hope not! I think I know what you're getting at, the quality of the music, at the artistic level would be the same, sure. But NOT the quality of the SOUND, and THAT'S WHAT MUSIC IS! I'm with Bobbe, gonna go get a pine board and play that since it's gonna be the "same quality", and I'm outta here, I give up. |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 31 March 2003 06:55 AM
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Let's see..... quote:
Don't Guitars have a knob for that function?
I think what "they" need is a "timbre" knob. Maybe a "style" switch. Maybe that's what's in those "suitcase nuke" processing centers. I wonder if a matchbox really would hold my clothes.... EJL |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 31 March 2003 11:50 AM
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quote:
I think I know what you're getting at, the quality of the music, at the artistic level would be the same, sure. But NOT the quality of the SOUND, and THAT'S WHAT MUSIC IS!
Music is made of sound, but music is much more than sound. By your logic, you could also say that music is time.
I was thinking about this topic more, and trying to put those thoughts into words. I'm not sure if people really disagree with me, or if they don't understand what I'm trying to say.
I could buy Lloyd Green's guitar from him, but I'd never be able to get Lloyd Green's music out of it. I wouldn't even be able to get his "tone", because Lloyd's ability to pull a great sound out of any instrument is part of what makes him a master musician.
I know that if Lloyd Green were to sit down at my guitar, he would coax a much better tone out of the amp than I can. I'm also sure that he can make a Sho-Bud Maverick sound better, tone wise, than any guitar I would ever play. Again, this is because he has a master's touch, a master's ear, etc..
You can play whatever guitar you like, because you like the sound of it or because you like its looks or because your hero plays one and you want to sound like him. I just believe that, at the core, the ability to get an instrument's best tone is a musical talent that you have to work on.
When I was starting out, every instrument I played had "sucky tone". Today, every instrument I play has "acceptable tone", to my ears anyway. I don't believe that my Sierra has a "better tone" than my original Sho-Bud. I believe that *I* have become a better musician, and that's why I have a better tone today.
Now, people who are so incredulous that I would say such a thing should remember my disclaimers: I am not a professional musician. I have been proven wrong many times here on the Forum. I'm not speaking for anyone else, or for the community at large. This is just my opinion, nothing more.------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
Jim Phelps
Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 01 April 2003 08:41 AM
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Yeesh.....! What am I gonna do with you Bobby? I agree with most everything you just posted here....unless by "any guitar you like" you include guitars that just sound BAD.....no amount of technique is gonna make a muddy or thin piece of crap sound great. You're right, beginners seldom get a good tone out of any guitar, and great tone usually comes with higher development of technique, execution, etc. A real master artist like LLoyd Green can get that beautiful sweet tone because he's honed his execution and technique to an art, and......(and I guess here's where we still disagree).... and because he knows how to choose an instrument with a voice or timbre or whatever you choose to call it, that compliments his style, technique and execution, will give him the sound he wants and also knows just how to choose and set his amp for "his tone", etc. Again, I just say that it's the whole package and can't understand anyone thinking "It's ALL the player" or "it's ALL the instrument", it's ALL the EQ", or it's ALL any ONE thing that makes a "tone". Oh well. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 01 April 2003 at 08:48 AM.] |
Ray Montee
Member From: Portland, OR, USA
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posted 03 April 2003 09:39 AM
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WHAT A JOY! A two page controversy right here on the Forum that RAY MONTEE didn't start. AMAZING!
Larry Behm.........I've got to hand it to YOU! You drew-in just about every BIG GUN in town and even Nashville with this post and in the minds of some, this issue still isn't settled.
By the way Larry, WHERE DID YOU GO? That's kinda like tossing a hand granade into an old fashioned out house on a really hot day and then leaving the area. Whew!
And Pete Burak......the guitar guy, great comments and some really DEEEEP thinking here. The eyes and ears of the world are focused upon you, pal. I know Pete personally and he IS a mighty fine guitarist.
Eric, you have such a unique way of explaining DEEP SUBJECTS in a simple, concise, easy to understand language. I'm proud of YOU as are others in this Forum. But what did you say about that "Matchbox"?
A good friend of mine, long time musician with years of experience....during his life time has spent more money on standard and steel guitars and amps (I've lost count on how many and what brands), than anyone else I have ever known. He is a stickler for "TONE" and he knows what it is. Yet, what he plays on anyone of his steel guitars still "SUCKS" and he has the BEST EQUIPMENT of the day on which to play it. He has spent however much money was required to purchase that BEST GUITAR ever made kinda sound.
His hands have expressed "that tone" for decades on a standard guitar........... Why might they fail to do so on steel? Or, is it, that the guitar and the hands just don't have that special "match" or "touch" to make it all happen when it comes to steel guitar?
He's NOT a newbie or wannabe and he's not someone's younger kids. Just wants to have that beautiful tone on steel guitar that has for so long eluded him.
The question..........goes on.
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Kenny Dail
Member From: Kinston, N.C. 28504
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posted 03 April 2003 10:13 AM
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Ray...the phrase is ...and the beat goes on... ------------------
kd...and the beat goes on... |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 03 April 2003 10:35 AM
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Ray: quote:
..during his life time has spent more money on standard and steel guitars and amps (I've lost count on how many and what brands), than anyone else I have ever known. He is a stickler for "TONE" and he knows what it is. Yet, what he plays on anyone of his steel guitars still "SUCKS" and he has the BEST EQUIPMENT of the day on which to play it.
Don't be so hard on yourself... (If the guy's last name is Gibs__, He'd suck no matter what he played.) I've spent about 250$ on guitars in my life, $225 on banjos (including the Nate Wilson Banjo Course), and $1050.95 on Steel guitars including my MSA Polyfiber Red Baron. Of course I think the total according to my reporting of figures to certain agencies is closer to $500,000.... $25,000 just for strings.. Missed you this week, but we're still there tonite. I've been beaten to a bloody nub, so it's a good time to hear how bad a person can really suck and still get paid...Time for more reverb.. ( If even the dearest of friends or family needed me to donate nerves for a nerve transplant, I couldn't do it. Every single nerve I have is about worn through..) Day thing is still hurting.. Tired Old Eric.. [This message was edited by Eric West on 03 April 2003 at 12:52 PM.] |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 03 April 2003 11:06 AM
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Oh, and the "Matchbox thing". It's an old line to a blues song that kind of pictures a guy like I used to be, with not a whole lot of material bonds to this world, taking stock of his relationships, future possibilities, industry-wise, spirituality-wise, location-wise etc., and considering that whatever move he makes might find himself not being able to pack his belongings up in a stack of American Tourister(tm) luggage for a gig, or other opportunity that might have presented it(her)self..At that point, he opens his box of matches to light his mooched cigarette. He finds it empty, and then it dawns on him. His "clothes drawer" doesn't really have that much stuff in it, and he wonders if he can get it all to fit in the matchbox, since it would solve most of his current dilemmas.. quote:
"Sittin' here wondering, will a matchbox hold my clothes. ( repeat once) I Ain't got no matches, but I shore got a long way to go."
-Blind Lemon Jefferson 1929-Now you have it. I'll always try my best to explain this stuff as I go along. EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 03 April 2003 at 03:17 PM.] |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 03 April 2003 12:38 PM
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No, Eric
You got the words wrong
It's quote:
I'm sittin' here wonderin' will a matchbox help my tone
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps |
Travis Bolding
Member From: Stroud, OK, USA
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posted 14 April 2003 07:07 AM
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Has anyone ever listened to that old Ralph Emory song "Touch of the Master's Hand"?
When I listen to someone play steel, I am listening for what the person imparts to the instrument. Bobbe, I'm sure that you or Emmons or any great player could play "Danny Boy" on a single string pine board steel (with no effects) and make it sound incredible. Don't blame your talent on hardware and electronic gadgets. Your talent is inside your head and your hands bring it to life. ~~ Travis |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 14 April 2003 07:23 PM
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Travis, thank you so very much for your flattering compliments. If what you are saying is true, I'd like to say that I feel I could do a lot better job producing a good sound on a fine guitar than on a "pine board" but I'd honestly try my best on both.
Thank you once more Travis. And yes, I feel Buddy can make about anything sound good, make that "great".
The true legend of our time. Bobbe |
Gary Walker
Member From: Morro Bay, CA
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posted 14 April 2003 09:16 PM
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I would love to get in on this subject but when I do, Bobbe's blood presure hits the peg and we have a great time, hahaha, but he and I are buddies and it would just be for fun anyway. Isn't this fun? |
Larry Behm
Member From: Oregon City, Oregon
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posted 15 April 2003 05:34 PM
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OK I am back. I really thought that my original post (62 ago) would be the only post, oh how wrong I was. Sorry I really meant to save all of this by making one last post for all time. Oh well I tried. Hee Hee  .For me, I hear one voice loud and clear and I gravitate toward it. There are lots of voices, they all sound really good, but. On the Oprey the other night two steelers backing artists played in your face steel using PP's, TW came on and did his thing. TW is the hottest thing out there right now and is one of my two top favorite players, but. Now that is just me, it does not work for everyone nor should it. Let's all just play and be happy, and let's not ever mention this again, OK? Larry Behm |
Sage
Member From: Boulder, Colorado
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posted 15 April 2003 07:28 PM
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The secret of great instrument tone depends on the moment the tree is cut. Just before that great tree falls, does the cutter say Timber.... or TIMBRE!
[This message was edited by Sage on 15 April 2003 at 07:31 PM.] |
Terry Wendt
Member From: Nashville, TN, USA
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posted 15 April 2003 10:10 PM
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If he says it in a big canyon... well now you know where they came up with reverb ------------------
PedalSteel.us Magazine TheEarlyDays.com and appearing regularly...aLotOfSpace.com
Jimmy Crawford/Russ Hicks... and Buddy Emmons on Bass!
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Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 15 April 2003 11:09 PM
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I'm really partial to that "Old Sho~Bud" tone myself...So. Larry. The New MSA: Are ya fer it or agin' it?
Gonna have to miss Pete tomorrow nite to do some recording. EJL ------------------
Eric West
'78 Pro III Sho-Bud
'75 MSA Red Baron
'63FLH 90cid Panhead
-Peavey: When it's *not* about "The Sound"-
"You can Smart Yourself Dumb.
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?"-Me
Some people play music out of love for it. Some for the money. I play it mostly out ofSpite.
-Me_
"At my age, sometimes I run out of Adrenaline, but I've still got plenty of Gall.." -Me-
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Doug Seymour
Member From: Jamestown NY USA
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posted 16 April 2003 01:41 AM
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Are we on the "Timbre Trail" here? Tall timber's callin' etc, Sons of the Pioneers |
Larry Behm
Member From: Oregon City, Oregon
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posted 16 April 2003 04:48 AM
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Eric, if someone wants to buy a MSA, I am happy. If someone thinks they sound good and it works for them, I am happy. If Reece makes $10,000,000 with his new guitar, I am really happy. If Bobbe begins to stock them, and in turn makes some of that $10 mill, I am a new found believer. If you begin to play one I will be there every night to see you play (as long as it is a blue one).But for me I am most happy playing what I play, for now. Bob can we close this thread? Larry Behm |
Cairo Zoots
Member From: Moville, Iowa ,next to the west fork of the Little Sioux River
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posted 16 April 2003 05:56 AM
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According to one of my college profs, timbre-(which was pronounced -tamber-, at the time I attended class) was defined as tone color. I guess that may be confusing to some, but it really helped define the word for me.------------------
ree-00-dee-doo |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 16 April 2003 02:39 PM
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Larry, if pigs start to fly, I'll be happy too! But until then, I'm Push-Pull happy.
Carl, yes, this is what it is buddy! Color! Discribing color to a blind person is like trying to describe timbre to a deaf musician.
Now , let's close this thing, Three subjects to start a fight: Religion, politics and tone. Three things you can't put your finger on. But you can put your ear on one of them. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 16 April 2003 at 02:48 PM.] |
b0b
Sysop From: Cloverdale, California, USA
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posted 16 April 2003 05:42 PM
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This is Larry's topic, and he's asked me to close it. It's been fun!
Here comes the lock.------------------
 Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
-System Administrator | |
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