Does anyone sell these?

thanks,
Drew

------------------
www.newslinkassociates.com
www.drewhoward.com

In another post about this problem about a month ago I also asked players to simply measure the rollers on their guitar, so that we could see which brands are compatible. The measurements needed are the width of the roller, the diameter of the roller, the diameter of the axle, and the width of the string groove (the larger strings usually rest on the edges of the groove, so the bottom of the groove is irrelevant, except possibly for the smallest strings, which do sit down in the groove - but the problem is mostly with the very largest guage strings on C6 and 12-strings). If people will post the measurements from their guitar(s) here, I will collect them in a chart. Then you could measure what you need on your guitar and just order off-the-shelf rollers from whatever manufacturer has rollers that size.

Machinists will make guaged rollers, but it will typically cost $100 bucks or so, and the results may be inconsistent. It is not a simple matter of making the grooves the width of the string. Some trial and error is usually involved. However, the results don't have to be perfect to greatly improve the problem. Most of the manufacturers who put guaged rollers on their guitars don't have 10 or 12 different sizes. They simply have two or three sizes of wider grooves for the lowest strings, and that takes care of the biggest part of the problem. But they use different sized axles and roller widths and diameters, so you have to know these measurements to be sure the rollers will work on a given guitar. Roller sets are usually available from PSG manufacturers for around $50.

So I will ask once again. Please just take a good ruler and measure the rollers on your guitar and post the measurements here along with the brand, model and year of your guitar, and which neck and the number of strings. We can then set up a chart so we can mix and match off-the-shelf rollers that are just sitting there for the taking, without having to go the expensive machine shop route. Maybe b0b could put the chart in the reference section of the Forum.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 06 May 2003 at 03:17 PM.]

Bill

[This message was edited by William Peters on 06 May 2003 at 01:48 PM.]

1. 1969 Emmons P/P; nut rollers were drilled on an ecentric. I did not know this until I saw BE at a Namm show in 1977. He told me about it. But it was too difficult to mess with. I lived with string rattle at the first few frets til I sold the guitar.

2. My 1988 Emmons'Lashley LeGrande had string rattle. I called Emmons and they sent me a new set. They were worse. Lived with originals. Hated it.

3. My 1992 Sierra Session D-10 U-12 had string rattle at the first few frets. I called Don Christensen. He sent me a new set. They were worse. I lived with the problem and I hated it.

4. My 2000 Excel U-12 had string rattle at the 1st few frets bad. I sent Mistuo an email. He promptly sent me a knew set. They were worse. I went back to the originals.

I have struck out. I continue to hear stories about manufacturers making gauged nut rollers along with stories about players having very good luck with them. I also hear stories of how easy it is to measure and calculate for making gauged nut rollers.

Well all I can say is, that has NOT proved to be the case in my case.

Oh well,

I don't have a micrometer, so any dimensions I gave you would be wrong.

When we started, there was a .010 to .015" gap under the bar on the 6th and 7th strings. Now, there's no more than .003 (or so) gap (hard to measure since the string is not rigid and the feeler gauge can displace the string) and all strings do fret with NO BAR PRESSURE, but they still buzz a bit. A MINIMUM amount of bar pressure -- just the weight of my hand -- keeps it from buzzing. I don't think it's worth the time and effort to go further. It did improve playability 100%. In retrospect, I believe that Bruce's idea of having three different sizes would go a long way toward improving the alignment problem,

My conclusion is if there's a bit of a buzz you can probably live with it, but if the string doesn't fret properly with no hand pressure you will fight it until you solve the problem. It's just more work to play when the tops of the strings aren't plane. My second conclusion, based on a non-scientific survey, is that EVERY 12-STRING STEEL I'VE EVER PLAYED HAS THIS PROBLEM. Most 10-string C6 necks do as well. I have played a few S-10 E9 necks that were fine with whatever the mfgr supplied. Just my experience.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 07 May 2003 at 06:20 AM.]

Fortunately several manufacturers (MSA, Zum, Emmons, Williams, Cougar, Carter?, and a few others) make guaged roller sets. So one could simply buy their off-the-shelf roller sets, typically for about $50 bucks, or about half what a machinist will charge. However, the axles come in different sizes, and some (e.g. old Sho-Buds) have rollers of different widths. The rollers on my Emmons 12-string P/P are the same diameter and width as my Fessy's rollers, but the axle size is different.

Below are my measurements. Please post yours. After all these long threads and my repeated requests, somehow no one but me has posted their measurements. This is the quick fix for this problem. Please, let's help each other. You don't need calipers to make these measurements. Even a desk ruler with marks down to 1/16" will work (if it's between the marks call it 1/32). Steel tapes usually have marks down to 1/32", which are completely adequate. Please take a minute and make your measurements and post them here. Also, please mention whether the grooves are U-shaped or V-shaped, as the V-shaped ones are the best.

Here are the measurements for the rollers on my guitars (crudely measured with a ruler, not precision measured with calipers).

Emmons '80s P/P 12-string ext. E9:
roller width 1/8", roller diameter 5/16", string groove 1/32" (strings 1-10) and 1/16" (strings 11 and 12)), axle diameter 1/16"

Fessenden 2000 S12U:
roller width 1/8", roller diameter 5/16", string groove 3/64" (all), axle diameter 3/32"

Sho-Bud professional:
roller width 3/32", roller diameter 3/8", string groove 1/16" (all), axle diameter 3/32"

If others will post the roller measurements for their guitar(s) I'll put them all in a table so we can hopefully mix and match our own custom sets from ready made rollers from the various pedal steel manufacturers.

Please get out those rulers, and thanks guys.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 07 May 2003 at 08:51 AM.]

The problem with nut rollers is a simple one. The solution is NOT as simple. EVEN though it appears to be.

There is NO reason why the tops of ALL strings are not dead flat. I am not talking about give or take a few thousands. I am talking about dead flat.

If the machinist is a real pro, this is easy. The problem is the same with auto mechanics; or any other tradesman. For every one that is really apt, most are not. Sadly. They are the reasons that one oft' hears, "they still didn't get it right".

IMO, the answer is not now; nor ever will be "gauged" rollers. Rather the answer is adjustable (up and down) nut rollers. This would require little more to the key (or keyless) head than is already there.

The block is there. Simply mill a 5/16" slot all the way across. Make 5/16" individual square nut supports milled with a slot for the roller and a slot at right angles for the individual axles. Drill and tap for an adjusting allen screw all the way through this roller support. Drill it so that it is at a compound angle and thread it. This would allow it to be adjusted from the top AND with strings installed.

This would then pemit the player to be able to EASILY achieve 100% dead flat strings at the tops of the nut rollers. IF the player felt a rattle or buzz due to tolerances in given strings; or he changed gauges, a quick "tweaking" of the adjusment screw and they are dead flat again.

If one spared no expense an LED lite array (one for each string) calibration bar, could be built that would remove EVERY bit of the guess work out of it. IE, any LED that did not light needs to be adjusted. The player hearing rattle would simply put this LED bar across the strings at the top of the nut rollers. Either all 10 LEDS (or how ever many) would light or not. The ones that did not light would be low. Simply raise them up. IF more did not light than did, then those should be lowered.

It is as simple as that. Considering that the PSG is the world's MOST unique instrument and one of the most difficult to master, ANY aid that can take away from natural frustrations needs to be built in.

ALL PSG's should have had this from day one. One day it will be IMO. That day could not come soon enough for me.

------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Carter has informed me that they do not have guaged rollers on their guitars, and that they have had few requests for them.

Will those with guaged rollers on their guitars (MSA, ZUM, Emmons, Williams, Sierra, Cougar, etc.) please post their measurements so that those of us without them can see if rollers from your manufacturer would fit on our guitars? Thanks

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 08 May 2003 at 08:41 AM.]

Williams 400X
diameter: 3/8"
width: 3/16"
hole: 1/8"

Sierra
diameter: 5/8"
width: 11/64"
hole: 3/16"

The axle is .125 (1/8) inch.
The roller diameter is .375 or 3/8 inch.
The width is .205 inch.

My rollers are pretty accurate... Halfway between the first fret and the nut, only string 8 buzzes with just the weight of the bar as long as I don't pick too hard.

But, If I were to change any of the string guages, it would probably be off. I actually thought that having the guaged rollers was a bad idea, because I feel locked into a specific string set. My strings are Cobra Coils by the way.

Hope this helps.

1978 Kline S-12:
Width 3/16"
Diameter 3/8"
Axle 3/32"
V-groove

William's Cougar roller width of 0.205" is about 3/16". Most of the dimensions seem to be in round 8ths, 16ths or 32nds of an inch, or at least those are probably close enough to work with.

William, are your Cougar roller grooves U-shaped and do the strings fit so snugly in them that you can't change guages? That is the disadvantage of U-shaped grooves. The V-shaped grooves allow different guages to be used, and these small changes would probably have minimal effect on the string height.

My Cougar rollers are Vee shaped, so I can change string gauges; the tops of the strings just won't be flat anymore. I know my roller width (.205) is not 3/16 (.1875) though. If I had to guess at a fraction, I would say 13/64 inch which equates to .203

Bill

William's Cougar roller width of 0.205" is about 3/16". Most of the dimensions seem to be in round 8ths, 16ths or 32nds of an inch, or at least those are probably close enough to work with.

Actually the best obtainable nut is one where the string ONLY touches at one point such as a knife edge. But this is not possible on a roller nut. So the next best thing is a V groove where the string only touches at two points on the nut roller.

Finally, for those players (myself included) who slide the bar clean off and back over the nut (when open strings are needed), the tops of the strings should be higher than ANY thing else. lest you get rattles and cut outs as your bar hits these obstructions.

I find this to be a "CON" on many PSG's.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 09 May 2003 at 09:06 AM.]

------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

It could be flat. I have seen at least one that is. The problem is, as you say, is one where the strings not leaving the roller in a straight line would make them non parallel and I am not sure this would be good.

I think the problem is that those fortunate enough to have instruments with guaged rollers have no reason to think about this problem, and a lot of players without them don't know what they are missing.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 11 May 2003 at 01:11 PM.]

I could not believe Carter has not received any requests for "gauged rollers". This makes me feel better.

I will add this bit of trivia to the scenario. When I was with quality control at RCA, we discovered that for every complaint or request received, that there were many more who felt the same, but didn't complain or request.

In fact, discovering this, changed our thinking completely and resulted in better customer relations as a result.

Carl, I think you are right. If the manufacturers asked if customers want guaged rollers, I'll bet they would find out that close to 100% do, and most would gladly pay extra for them - although why should you have to if you are paying three to six thousand dollars for an instrument. Even the cheapest 6-string guitars have guaged nuts.