Steel Guitar Strings
Strings & instruction for lap steel, Hawaiian & pedal steel guitars
http://SteelGuitarShopper.com
Ray Price Shuffles
Classic country shuffle styles for Band-in-a-Box, by BIAB guru Jim Baron.
http://steelguitarmusic.com

This Forum is CLOSED.
Go to bb.steelguitarforum.com to read and post new messages.


  The Steel Guitar Forum
  Pedal Steel
  Who out there reads music (Page 2)

Post New Topic  
your profile | join | preferences | help | search


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Who out there reads music
bob grossman
Member

From: Visalia CA USA

posted 17 May 2003 07:51 AM     profile     
Tom Bradshaw and I were discussing reading music years ago and it is food for thought. What does it mean to "read" music. I took piano lessons early in life and I can figure out the notes from the music, and I know the type chord I'm playing on the steel, but I have to think about which key the chord is. Tom pointed out that there were those who could look at the music and hum the tune...now that's reading music.
Gene Jones
Member

From: Oklahoma City, OK USA

posted 17 May 2003 08:32 AM     profile     
There were two goals in life that I regretted not accomplishing....one was not having a university degree, which I finally achieved...and the other was not learning to read music. I have survived without it, but my self-esteem has suffered! I sing bass in church and can follow the notation but I still can't follow the melody line!

In reference to professional steel playing...I have to default to the numbers chart!

Gene
www.genejones.com

Al Vescovo
Member

From: Van Nuys, CA, USA

posted 21 May 2003 05:24 PM     profile     
Just answer this ?. What do you do when you go on a studio call and the copyist hands you your part to play? Maybe it,s a harmony part to play with a trumpet and saxophone. You had better be able to read music, because they sure won't have your steel part written in tab. I'm going on a tour of Japan next month with the Billy Vaughn Orchestra and all of my music is notation and sometimes chord symbols. If I couldn't read music then I wouldn'd be able to take this job. There's one rehersal and then the next time we play, it's in the concert hall. So please, if you want to do your self a favor and also help legitimise the Steel Guitar as a real musical instrument, which it is,learn to read music. Thanks for the soapbox.

------------------

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys
Member

From: Southaven, MS, USA

posted 23 May 2003 03:27 PM     profile     
Albert----A big AMEN! Not to mention all the time saved in rehearsals: if it's hard, walk it through the first time; next cut it at the real tempo; next, go public with it. I've known of Rockers and Country Music players to practice for hours on end with their band because of lack of musicical communication. Also, I've never heard of anyone "sight reading" tab! By the way, I hope your tour goes well; that Vaughn group was really famous around Memphis. My trip to Aruba and the Eastern Caribbean was terrific. Good Luck. Hugh
W Franco
Member

From: silverdale,WA. USA

posted 23 May 2003 04:07 PM     profile     
DAVID....I don't know of a program that can actually scan something into the computer and read it. Scaning something like that would simply go into the computer like a picture file.
I had a class assignment to actually write out a verse and chorus of my choice in a jazz tune called Blue Seven. I couldn't in my wildest dreams right now take a piece of musical staff and write something down and know it it was anywhere close to being right. But with my Band in a box program I was able to PAINSTAKINGLY work on it for quite a few hours and get it reasonably close. Keep in mind this was only a single note horn solo! But I could hear it after I "
wrote it" in the program and kept messing with it until it sounded like the recording. I woke up in the middle of the night with that solo in my head!. And the program will transpose it to any key you like with a mouse click. Kind of a crutch but so is Spell checker.
W Franco
Member

From: silverdale,WA. USA

posted 23 May 2003 04:14 PM     profile     
Excuse me, I just read the reply and link a few posts back. I guess there is a program that will scan a piece of music..totally cool. It says it saves it as a midi. file. There are a lot of way to play that. You could import that into Band in a Box, then to power tracks probably have 40 free tracks to record your own stuff with it as well!
Mike Perlowin
Member

From: Los Angeles CA

posted 23 May 2003 05:08 PM     profile     
Sight reading, with it's emphasis on the individual notes, is a problem on the E9 neck because the system does not give us enough information to just sit down and play what's written.

On other instruments, there may be more than one way to hit any given note, but on the PSG, the notes fall on different frets, depending on our pedal positions.

That doesn't mean it can't be done, but it requires more from us than the same skill would require from a player of another instrument. It's not easy, but it's not impossible.

Earlier in this thread, Bobby made a reference to my music theory book. This book began as a series of articles for SGW, and was later expanded into a book on ,music theory as it specifically pertained to the E9 neck. Eventually, when I re-wrote it for Mel Bay, I deleted all references to the steel and made it a generalized thing that applied to all instruments.

But in the steel guitar version (which is now out of print) I included a short lesson on how to sight read for the E9 tuning. I still have the file, and will gladly send it to anybody who writes to me and asks for it.

Basically, what it says is that you need to be able to recognise chord outlines in the music, and make the chord however best fits. Then use the pedals to play any non chordal tones.

David L. Donald
Member

From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

posted 23 May 2003 07:11 PM     profile     
One thing I really admire about the french musicians is the strong Sulfege training.
Most of these guys can look at some music and just sing it from the notes and then put it on their instrument. Crowbear is good at this too.

My DRUMMER is a monster at it. I was telling him about Doug Jernigan's version of Dexterity by Charlie Parker.. He said he didn't know it.. So I handed him the Realbook.

He just started singing it at FULL tempo, note perfect. I could almost hear the piano comping behind him. JUST SCARY !
Especially if you know Dexterity; the name is well earned.

They have one advantage here,
Do is ALWAYS C, Sol is always G, Fa = F etc
B which we call Ti is pronounced Ce here, which is VERY confusing... (they talking notes or sulfege...Auuggh.)

With the Berklee/Nashville # transposing system I know Do is F in F key and A in A key etc. And Do always I, So is always V etc.

Great for playing with a straight chart, but a singer in a different key.
But here they see a C note and sing Do automatically. It has it's uses.
But I also don't see them transpose as fast here.

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys
Member

From: Southaven, MS, USA

posted 23 May 2003 07:19 PM     profile     
Even though the steel has many positions for the same note, SO DOES the Guitar. Place your index finger across any given fret on the guitar, and you have a 21/2 octave range WITHOUT moving your left hand. The same goes for steel. In any piece of music to be read, the reader FIRST determines the highest and lowest notes to be played; then he/she knows where to place the bar. It's unfortunate that so many "tunings" are so limited in range. HJ
David Doggett
Member

From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

posted 23 May 2003 09:03 PM     profile     
Mike has hit the nail on the head. Any given note in the music can be played on many frets or strings and with many pedal/lever combinations. When I get around to it, here is how I will approach reading music on pedal steel. First I will use a computer to get the music in the key of C. From my piano back ground I know the scales and chords in this key pretty well. As someone above said, you have to be able to recognize the chords in the music. Even if you are playing a single note melody with only adding harmony occassionally, you have to recognize the chord progression the melody is moving through.

Now, if I see the music is at a I chord, I go to a I chord position (fret and pedal/knee combination). On E9 there are at least three I chord positions: no pedals/knees, AB pedals, A pedal and F lever - pick one (on a universal you also have the I6 position). Now at that position I have to know what written note of the C scale, including the chromatics or accidentals, is on each of the 10 (or 12) strings plus what note each pedal and lever gives at that position. I would pick a beginning piano book and learn to play songs at that position until I could do simple melodies, including accidentals, and some chords. Once you get that under your belt, you will need to learn the same stuff at each of the other positions for a I chord.

There are some notes, especially accidentals, that are not available at some positions, or are hard to get. In that sense the pedal steel is not a truly chromatic instrument. Yes, you can always move the bar one way or another to get an accidental, but you then loose (or at least change) all the harmony strings. Knowing what scale notes or accidentals are not available at each I chord position will help you choose which of the three or more positions you should go to for a particular phrase or passage.

Now you can play in the key of C at any of several I chord positions. But you are only using a small fraction of the notes and harmonies available on the instrument. Next you have to learn to play in the key of C at the IV, V and relative minor (i.e., the VIm) positions. Again some, but not all, of the scale notes and accidentals in the key of C are available at each of these. Furthermore, each of those chords can be played at several positions. You have to learn to play the C scale and its accidentals at each of those. So where any other instrument learns to play a C scale (with accidentals) at one place on the instrument, a pedal steeler has to learn it at dozens of places. And this is just one key. There are 12 keys.

But we ain't even done with the key of C yet. Plenty of songs will contain other chords in the key of C: II, IIm, IIIb, III, VI, VII. You will want to be at some of those positions if they are in the progression of the song, so you will need to know the C scale and accidentals at those positions also.

Of course, at any of the above chord positions you might want to make the chord a 6th, 7th, 9th, augmented, suspended, etc. But that is not such a big problem, because the music you are reading will have the notes that make those changes. So if you just read the music and play the notes you read, those harmonies will automatically be made. That is in fact the way music readers play. They can play all sorts of complicated harmonies just by reading the music, but they can't necessarily name the chords on the fly as they read and play them. They don't have to, that's the beauty of reading music.

This is why it is so hard for us to read music on pedal steel. We have learned it backwards. We usually know roughly what chords and harmonies we are playing (at least by the number system), but not necessarily the names of the notes and what they look like in written music. People who learn an instrument by reading music know where all the individual written notes are on the instrument, and thus can play any written chords or harmony without knowing the chord names, even though they know the names of the individual notes. Pedal steelers are the opposite. We can go to a fret and hit the right combination of pedals and knees to get a chord we can name, but we may not be able to name the individual notes we are playing.

The neat thing about our way of playing is that we can transpose easily. Even a novice steeler can fairly easily change from playing in C to playing in C# or D. I have no idea what the scale and chords are in the key of Eb, I just know how to find the I, IV and V chords, etc. But for a piano player to transpose from the key of C to Eb, he has to know the Eb scale and chords. Very few piano players can do that. But if you shove the music in front of them written in the key of Eb, they are off and running.

So anyway, suppose a steeler has finally learned to read music at all the positions in the key of C. That is the biggest part of the problem. Yes there are 11 more keys. But all the chords in C will be in other keys as well, so as you learn a handful of the most common keys, you will know all the chords before you get around to all the keys.

Another way to look at this is to realize you have to learn all the written notes available at each of the 12 frets, and with every pedal and knee combination at each of those frets. That's 15 to 20 notes per fret, or 180 to 240 notes.

But now comes the hard part. Unless you are always going to scan your music into a computer and transpose it into C, you have to be able to recognize the chord progressions you see embedded in the written music in any key, in order to know what position to play at. This is what other instruments don't have to do. They just play the music as written and it automatically puts them at the right place on their instrument. Written music does not do that for the pedal steel (okay the 6-string guitar and orchestral strings have the same problem, but not nearly to the same degree).

This is giving me a headache and making me thirsty. It's gettin' late. I'm gonna go have a beer and play some music by ear. Buddy Emmons and Curly Chalker have done pretty good that way. If I could just do 0.00001% of that...

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 23 May 2003 at 10:41 PM.]

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 23 May 2003 at 10:48 PM.]

David L. Donald
Member

From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

posted 24 May 2003 04:50 AM     profile     
One thing usefull for me would be a small chart showing ;
A few notes in notation
and then the fret string equivilents
and it's pitch relative to the piano middle C.

Obviously not for the whole of both necks.
But G & C in the treble clef
The C hash mark in between them
and F and C in the bass clef for a start.
Then I would be sure of where I am starting the process.

But ideally a full double staff scale with, off to the right, the PSG string / fret info.

I would not want to start really learning this without acurate starting references.
I am sure it exists somewhere but it ain't crossed my path so far.

Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 25 May 2003 08:53 AM     profile     
I did this a long time ago:

David Doggett
Member

From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

posted 25 May 2003 09:31 PM     profile     
David and b0b, we're thinking the same thing. After I wrote all that crap above, I was riding around in my car today thinking about tunings, and I had the idea to start writing out my tunings in musical notation instead of just using letters. I think a lot of us play around with our tunings in handwritten charts or computer spreadsheets. I like to transpose E9, and C6/B6 into the key of C in my spreadsheet charts, because I am so much more familiar with C than E. Why not write out the tunings in musical notation in the key of C?

Then I came on here tonight and there is b0b's notation of the open E9 and C6 necks. I was just thinking of one big 10-note chord, but spreading it out the way b0b did is more readable. It's really more of a scale than a chord, especialy when you add in the pedals and knees. Being vaguely aware of guitar notation, I was thinking of everything as an octave higher.

Now the next step is to write out the notation of the tuning at the C fret in the key of C. And also add the notes you get with each pedal and knee at the C fret. Notation works out a little better for steel in C than in E. In C the root on the 8th string is middle C. So everything above that is in the treble clef range, and everything below it is in the bass clef range.

The next thing to do is to go up (or down) to the F fret and do the same thing, then the G fret. Then do Am at the C fret with the A pedal, and also at the G fret with the BC pedals, etc. That's a pretty good start for being able to read music in the key of C. Just writing out and playing around with your own tuning in notation will begin to get you familiar with how written music relates to your tuning.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 25 May 2003 at 09:48 PM.]


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 

All times are Pacific (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Pedal Steel Pages

Note: Messages not explicitly copyrighted are in the Public Domain.

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46

Our mailing address is:
The Steel Guitar Forum
148 South Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Support the Forum