As far as the 'Custom Shop' stuff goes, I agree that the 'designer resos' and top of the line Martin or Gibson instruments have the brand recognition and following to get ridiculous prices for their stuff.

I still maintain that a standard guitar player can get going with pro quality equipment for far less than a steel player. Sometimes it's hard to separate the collector's value and the non-functional glitz from the true value of a working musician's gear.

1. Cost of material

Plus

2. Cost of labor (man/hour costs)

plus

3. Overhead (all other costs associated with doing business; which can be extensive what with insurance, workman's compensation, lawyers, taxes, advertising, licenses, mortgages, utilities, non-direct labor, etc, etc.)

plus

3. Markup

Example:

Material=$44.00

Labor=$380.00 (19 hours x $20.00)

overhead=$646.00 (labor X 1.7 factor which varies amongst different business; but 1.7 was RCA's factor when I priced jobs)

markup=$1370.00 (above costs times 100%. This is usually standard for most businesses, But can vary widely due to competition.

Total price for the item=$2740.00

This would be the SLP (suggested list price). Depending upon what type of business, this price can vary widely.

How difficult it is to make a product; how maticulous a worker is; how well or poorly trained a worker is has little or nothing to do with the price most items sell for on the open market.

The price of most products are determined by the above paramaters; more or less, with the "market place" being the most governing factor.

However, very few good business men will ever truly sell anything below cost (cost=material cost, plus labor cost, plus overhead costs). If they do that much they will not stay in "biness".

Interestingly, resale of a product has NOTHING to do with the above (in most cases). Now, it is determined almost exclusively by supply and demand. This is why a Sierra can drop in price to half (or more) in a heartbeat; while an Emmons' P/P can sell for double, triple (or even more) in many instances.

It has often been suggested (and I agree totally) that the truest "price to value" price is the resale price. Rather than the original purchase price.

BUT, that only really applies for a manufacturing situation where help is available for $20 an hour (I realize it's just an example, but can introduce a lot of variation for an instrument that may require hundreds of hours to produce). In the custom shop model, the specs for materials generally become more stringent (often because the buyer is much more savvy and demands certain materials or configurations of components), thus more expensive. The builder is often the only employee and, as a 'master craftsman', pays himself substantially better than $20/hr. The precision and/or detail of the doo-dads, like binding and inlay and engraving and painting Earl Scruggs on the banjo head costs BIG BUCKS and requires experienced artisans. And overhead is proportional to the size of the operation and markup is relatively constant. So, a custom shop item can easily be priced at 3x-4x what you'd pay for an equivalent 'factory' instrument.

THAT'S where the difference in price between a good sounding Regal reso, and a master crafted Scheerhorn or Benoit, comes from. It's also where the difference between a Carter and an Anapeg comes from.

And, I agree with you, in this capitalistic system, an item is worth what the buyer will pay for it.

Just my slant . . .

However, at the same time, I don't feel that most Steel guitar builders are charging too much.

Companies like Carter, GFI. Williams, Excel are giving good value for the money and they are LIGHTER Weight to carry around.

I see a lot of players now are over 50 years old and I am sure they appreciate that.

Also I might add that MSA is building a high quality guitar and it is Still LIght Weight! So it is possible in this Millenium....al .

You may be able to get "one" of the Earl models (there are 7) for that price, but not "THE EARL" model. It lists for $29,500.

Here's a link to the 2003 Gibson Dealer's price list; http://www.janetdavismusic.com/gibson2003.jpg

But that's enough about Banjo's, back to the subject at hand. With the amount of work that goes into R&D, tools, machining, material procurement, advertisement, marketing and assembly, I don't see how today's builders sell them at the current prices. Especially considering the relatively small market.

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Dave Burr
Remington Sustainmaster SD-10 3x4

quote:

---

It's hard to find a pedal steel of the relative quality of a Tele and a good used steel amp for less than $2500. I believe that's one reason why guitar players shy away from pedal steel.

---

Bruce Springsteen paid $100 an hour to rent it for a session, plus dinner and car service for the owner to wait in the studio till he was done playing it.
It sounds that good..
Until I played it's previous owners "NEW" mando, a '29 Lloyd Loar signed F-5..
And saw/heard where the bar is really raised to. I then knew why people say this is IT.

All my tests of mandolins ALWAYS are compared to these two. Not because that's what I want to do.. but because I have no choice.
There is a quality of sound I can't find anywhere else. And that's the bottom line.

Are the prices too high, most likely. But not so much as might be suspected. Is the value of the instrument beyond reproach undoubtedly.

So the market dictates what it is worth to someone that values the sound. And secondarily the authenticity.

quote:

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A Black Mica Push-Pull
Duuuuuuuuh!

---

Actually, I prefer the sound of the black one he used on the live '77 recordings. I believe I recall Buddy saying he does too (something about blistering a beagle's ear)

FWIW (not much)

I think it's safe to say we'll never see this kind of value appreciation in vintage pedal steels... At least not in my lifetime.

Respectfully,

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Dave Burr
Remington Sustainmaster SD-10 3x4

James Dean could not have looked as "cool" as Buddy did in that picture.

{sorry for the topic drift}

Respectfully,
Dave Burr

[This message was edited by Dave Burr on 04 June 2003 at 01:21 PM.]

"So there aren't any 1929 Loar-signed Gibsons."
Tell that to the VP of Mandolin Brothers...

Yes, it does seem strange that a beautifully hand crafted steel guitar can be bought and sold for comparable pennies. There must be a message in here someplace that steelers are not picking up on. What is it?

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 10 January 2005 at 09:26 PM.]

The other was a '34 and sweet.

Les I was originaly a harmonica player in my early bands,
in Boston when J. Giels Band and Magic Dick were in their prime.

Our nerdowell bassplayer's father was the founding full time member of the HarmoniCats, and I got some lessons from him.

Plus I got to play with him all those old Harmonica Wheels he had made with all the keys and styles on one unit. A serious player for sure.

I can imagine the cost to recreate thos wheels these days, a Blues Harp was $1,59 back then.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 11 January 2005 at 01:44 AM.]

quote:

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David wrote:

Les I was originaly a harmonica player in my early bands, in Boston when J. Giels Band and Magic Dick were in their prime.

Our nerdowell bassplayer's father was the founding full time member of the HarmoniCats, and I got some lessons from him.

---

What was this fellow's name David? The Harmonicats went through a lot of players in the early forties. I always thought it was Jerry Murad who was the original founder of the Hamonicats. Previous to that they tried half a dozen different names; including The Harmonica Quad, Harmonica Madcaps, they then sort of split and joined the Harmonica Rascals; that didn't work out so they re-grouped and became the Harmonicats: hence Near You, then Peg O My Heart.

I played with them for three engagements in 1960 in Fort William Ont. St Paul, Min and De Moines, Iowa when Al Fiore got sick and couldn't do the shows (I was only 20 at the time)

Maybe it’s low value is because it was so genre connected to the “so called” hill billy music for too long? Just a thought.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Steels, if looked at as a professional tool, are mercifully underpriced.

Steve Bailey

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

He had so many hamonica wheels, it was easy to believe he was the keeper of the flame. And the artwork patterns matchedthose on the Sulivan show perfectly, though he looked younger.

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Rebel™
ICQ 614585
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html