Go to Bobbe Seymour's website STEELGUITAR.NET and locate the book "Nashville Number System". Excellent tutorial on the chart system.

Ricky

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah

quote:

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I see things like a 5 to the negative seventh power. (I'm a math guy) I don't get what its saying.

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There have been some very in-depth forum threads done on the number system, which should be findable with the search function.

So start by "spelling the (major) scales". Start with C:

Recite: C, D, E, F, G, A B, C:
Then descending (harder).

Now go to F:
Recite: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F.

Do one a day, just like the vitamins. Each day, review the previous ones. Pretty soon you will know them cold. (You can tell when this happens when you realize that last night you dreamed a scale!)

If all 12 (?) scales is too daunting, just work on the scales with 1, 2, 3, and 4 sharps; and 1, 2, 3, and 4 flats. These, with the C major scale, make 9 to memorize. And they are the most common keys.

Then rehearse the 1-4-5 of each scale. Make note cards, or ask yourself:

"1-4-5 in C is . . . uh . . .um . .C, F, and G7?"

"Correct!"

"1-4-5" in Eb is . . .er . . hmmmm .. mumble . . Eb, Ab, F?"

"Sorry--try again."

SRR: Study, Recite, Review.

As Earnest stated, - means minor and a delta means a major 7th chord (NOT a "7th" chord: research this, OK?) So when you go to those excellent web sites, learn to recognize the few variations in symbols.

Hope this helps. BTW, each of us has struggled with this.

Chris

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now living in the Ocean State ....

Wayne Baker

[This message was edited by Wayne Baker on 12 July 2003 at 12:07 PM.]

The number system will be your friend soon - trust us! Especially in country where there are tried and true progressions/formulas that apply almost all the time.

You're not way off on the modes business. The cleanest way to think of and talk about modes is this: you're playing all the notes that naturally occur in the "home" key, but the mode name tells you the first note/starting point. So "E Phrygian" is actually the C scale played with E as the first note or "anchor pitch": E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E. Same with "F Lydian": F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F.

Every mode has a certain color that you will learn to recognize.

E-mail me if you want to get more into modes...You might also look for any books by Bret Willmott, William Leavitt, or Mick Goodrich - they are jazz heavies, but they teach the modes-based approach as it is used at Berklee (I think they're all still teaching there?)..

*and Dr. Hugh's suggestion of Aebersold is a great one as well!*

[This message was edited by Nathan Delacretaz on 12 July 2003 at 04:17 PM.]

A few of the symbols to get you going.

Example: key of C
1- C minor
1 triangle C maj7th
1 with a ^0 is a C dim
1+ is C aug

Hope this helps.

(Until accidentals are introduced) I, IV and V are always major. ii, iii and vi are always minor. You'll rarely find a chord with the Seven as the root unless it's a quick passing chord. The major chord built on a flat seven is very common.

The system we use varies somewhat from the rules based on musical theory.

In 3-chord songs, where all you play are I, IV and V7, then all the scales you need are comprised of notes of the key you a playing in.

But when you play other chords, such as on cycle of fifths progressions, as in the key of C: C /// A7/// D7/// G7/// C, the A7 chord has the note C#, and the D7 has F#, so what to do? The usual approach is to play the A7 mixolydian (dominant scale) over the A7, and the D mixolydian over the D7 chord (and the G dominant scale over the G7). It really helps to be able to play the important scales: major, dominant, minor, minor seventh, major and minor pentatonic, and diminished, automatically, from any root, and to be able to start those scales from any note in those scales.

Once you learn the A dominant scale, you can play that scale over A7 in any key you find it, with a few exceptions.

It is also a good approach for 3 chord songs to be thinking of chord scales also, as it automatically focuses your attention on “right” notes, and combine that with just playing melodically in the key you are in.

But the 'I' major scale also works over the ii, iii, IV, V, vi, and vii0 chords. On a stringed instrument, you can 'see' all the notes that will work all over the fretboard. So, why modes?

"But when you play other chords, such as on cycle of fifths progressions, as in the key of C: C /// A7/// D7/// G7/// C, the A7 chord has the note C#, and the D7..."

Sorry, you lost me here- probably because I don't play jazz. To me, an A chord should be minor in the key of C. A7 sounds out of place.

Please forgive my ignorance on this, but I have legitimate reasons for arguing against the over-complication of music. Many of the musicains I've known have become so immersed in musical theory that they've come to think of music and theory as one in the same. Theory is important, but it is a product of great music, not a catalyst for it. A great musical theorist will be revered by musicians everywhere, but a great musician will be loved and cherished by an entire culture.

1. The Nashville Number System is a vocabulary tool for communicating with a certain group of folks concerned with country.

2. Modes-based thinking is a vocabulary tool for communicating with a certain group of folks concerned with contemporary jazz.

Right?

I think we can eliminate the frustration behind these concepts by thinking of them as tools you have in your garage - you don't need them to survive maybe, but it helps to have them there JUST in case! : )

Now let's all go make some good noises.

You are correct, the proper scales for the I, ii, iii, IV, V7, and vi chords, which are the naturally occurring chords in the major scale, can be conceived of as playing the major scale, but starting or orienting around the chord root of the moment.

However, we often use chords from outside the basic body of chords. One of the most common uses of chords with non-key note tones are cycle of fifths progressions, in which the basic idea is to precede a chord with that chord’s own V7 chord. Hank Williams’ Hey Good Lookin’, for example goes, in C:

(C) Hey good lookin’
What you got cookin’
(D7) How about cookin’ (G7) somthing up with (C) me.

The D7 chord is the dominant 7th chord a perfect fifth above G7, and is hence, the V7 of G7. Since the note D is the second note in the C major scale, we call D7 - II7. Remember of course that the naturaly chord on D in the key of C is D minor.

The next step might be to precede the D7 with its own V7, A7. In the key of C, since the note A is the sixth scale degree, we call that chord VI7. (Again, remember that in the key of C, the normal chord is A minor)

So my progression was I VI7 II7 V7 I. This is like the chord progression for Sweet Georgia Brown. In the key of C, the chords are C A7 D7 G7 I. The I chord is in the pickup measure, and the first bar starts on VI7.

(C)
(A7) No girl made can hold a shade to Sweet Georgia Brown
(D7) Two left feet but oh so neat has Sweet Georgia Brown
(G7) They all sigh and want to die for Sweet Georgia Brown,
I’m telling you (C), you know I don’t (E7) lie, not much.

If you try to play the C major scale over those long durations of A7 and D7, it just will not sound right, according to the conventions of our musical language, because the A7 has the note C#, which is not in the C major scale, and the D7 has F#, also not in the C major scale. So you have to play other scales. The usual approach is to play A mixolydian, (which is perhaps better called the A dominant scale in this context, leaving the term mixolydian for its use as a modal scale), over the A7 chord, and D dominant over the D7 chord.

[This message was edited by Tony LaCroix on 14 July 2003 at 03:08 PM.]

For example, there are three minor chords within a harmonized major scale, the second, third, and sixth steps. Let's look it up in the dictionary (which means step over to the piano).

With the left hand, play A,C, and E...an A minor triad. With the right hand, play-

A Aeolian-A,B,C,D,E,F,G,A
then
A Dorian-A,B,C,D,E,F#,G,A.

Sounds a bit different, right? Now play
A Phrygian-A,Bb,C,D,E,F,G,A.

This really sounds different, doesnt' it? Kind of Moorish or Mediterranean.

My point about the different sounds the minor modes produce, is a lot of people think that Aeolian is what to use against all minor chords.

It's true that you can play a major scale over any of the seven chords in the relevant key. You can also take that basic relationship and apply it in different ways. For example, if you're playing a minor seventh-type vamp, you can play a major scale a whole-step down from the minor seventh's root.

When I first got into scales, having previously just amassed assorted licks and things, I spent a lot of time learning the major scale all over the neck of the guitar. Gaining fluidity with that took awhile. Knowing how a certain major scale relates to, and can be used over other chord types, gave me the ability to play over most jazz progressions -- although I would have to change my major "parent" scale from time to time in a song.

After I had been working at that for awhile, I played with another guitarist who had been at this stuff a little longer than me. One of the things that really impressed me with his playing was how he was able to outline each chord in a progression with just the right notes, and say a lot with a little. At that point, since I was just playing the same scale over everything, I wasn't really able to bring out individual chord tones enough.

So, that's when I began to think in terms of the dorian mode, the mixolydian mode, etc. I guess you could look at it as a way of subdividing what you know into areas that better address different chord types. Besides knowing immediately where the chord/gravity tones are,(especially if you've practiced four-note arpeggios), you develop all kinds of passing tones that are peculiar to that chord/mode, and its place in a progression.

I think you're very correct that someone can get caught up in concepts to the point where you've stopped making music. A very non-conceptual way of viewing modes might be this:

"While it's true that conceiving of a certain parent scale over a string of chords will work, a barely-present modal tag can also be used when it is desirable to develop isolated areas within the entirety of the parent scale/chord complex."

Some very good jazz players also take the parent-scale approach very far, although they use a few other parent scales besides the major. However, the good ones will envision relevant chord shapes from the key in that single scale, so they can get the gravity notes.

I personally use a few different approaches, including one in which my blues bag can be superimposed over different jazz chord types in different ways; that gets me out of the whole diatonic scale thing, into something much more "funky."

I think these approaches tend to arrive at a very similar destination, if you keep at it long enough. I'm probably drifting pretty far, but this is where the particular issue sprang up.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 15 July 2003 at 09:50 PM.]

The way to do that automatically is to use chord scales. You probably do that right now, by playing, in the key of C, C major pentatonic over the C chord, F major pentatonic over the F chord, and G major pentatonic over the G7 chord, all spiced up with blue notes or blues licks. All of those three pentatonic scales are made up of notes of the C major scale - using the pentatonics sorts out the notes of the C major scale for you. Or you can use the dominant scale built on the first, fourth and fifth scale degrees to play the changes.