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Author
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Topic: D10 vs. S10 vs. S12 Universal
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Cory Jensen
Member From: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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posted 19 August 2003 01:07 PM
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As you might have seen from my other threads posted, I'm trying to figure out what steel would be best for my first guitar.It seems that D10 are the most prevelant on the used market. S10 E9 guitars have the obvious disadvantage of having less options. However, they are lighter and presumably less complicated then a D10. I've heard a lot of people recommend an S12 Universal. I read the article by Maurice Anderson and he seems to make some good points in favor of this set-up. However, I haven't really seen any S12 Universals on the used market. Is that because people hold onto theirs, or because there's just not that many of them? I'm sure with all things Pedal steel the right guitar and set-up for one person isn't the right choice for another. So, my questions... What did you start out on?
What do you play now?
If you were to start again today, what would you buy?
And are there any resale differences between these options? (i.e, is it harder to unload an S10 vs. a D10, etc.)
Thanks.
(P.S. I don't mean to dominate the board with my posts, however, I'm having a slow day at work so I've got some extra time to post.) |
Jim Eaton
Member From: Santa Susana, Ca
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posted 19 August 2003 01:46 PM
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Cory,
I have owned and played, S-10's, D-10's, and S-12. They all have their own feel and advantages. They are all different versions of the same thing.
I would advise you to get a guitar that contains the standard E9th 10 string tuning with 3 floor pedals & 4 or 5 knee levers.
This could be the front neck of a D-10, the only neck of an S-10, the top 10 strings of an S-12. My point is that you need to learn how to crawl before you walk or run and learning the 10 string E9th tuning with 3/4 is going to be the quickest way to make music with the course materials that are available today.
I'd bet that very few members here still have their 1st guitar, they might wish they still had their 1st guitar, but most every steel player I've ever known has gone through several guitars before they really knew what they wanted and got "that" guitar.
This is all "IMHO" and I hope it helps.
JE:-)>------------------
Emmons D10 8/4 P/P -75'
Fessenden SD-10 3/5
76'Session 400
86'Nashville 400
Bandit 112
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Cory Jensen
Member From: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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posted 19 August 2003 01:50 PM
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Thanks Jim. That's just the kind of advice I'm looking for. |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 19 August 2003 03:24 PM
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I have a d D-10 and I think the question really boils down to what music you want to play.
Do you want to sound like Lloyd Green, or Tom Morrell?
Or both alternately in the same song for example. |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 19 August 2003 04:39 PM
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Cory, Jim's right. The vast majority of pedal steelers start with an E9 S10. It is THE neck for country, and is good for rock, blues, classical, and also some western swing and jazz. That will keep you busy for your beginning years. Later, if you decide you want to specialize in swing or jazz, you'll want to move either to a double neck or a universal.If you play rock and blues, you will eventually feel limited at the bottom of 10-string E9 and want to move to a 12-string extended E9, a universal, or even a D12. But much as I love those extra bottom strings now, I don't think I could have handled them well as a beginner. 10 strings are a lot when getting started. Don't try to anticipate your needs and get something eleborate and expensive now to cover all future possibilities. Part of the fun is outgrowing your starter and experimenting with other brands and configurations later. Especially now with the Forum, it is very easy to buy any type of pedal steel at a good used price. There is no hurry. If you watch the Forum you will see every make and configuration up for sale over a period of weeks or a few months. With a little patience, the exact thing you want to try will soon pop up. Since last Christmas, I have bought 3 top brands in various configurations, for a total of less than $4,000, after subtracting what I sold my starter for. The arguments for and against double-necks, universals, and extended tunings concern things that are mostly beyond a beginner, and things you can't know now. Forget about that now. There are many long threads about this in the Forum archives when the time comes and you know more about what kinds of music you want to play. As far as what is available on the used market, there was a survey on the Forum within the last year about which brands and configurations people play. I forget exactly how it came out, but a lot, possibly most pedal steelers play an S10 or SD10 E9, so they are a big chunk of the market, new or used. There are almost as many D10s, maybe even a few more. S12 Ext. E9s and S12 or SD12 universals have a smaller new and used market, but there are plenty of them out there. D12s, S14s, etc. are a pretty small nich, but they are out there too. When the time comes, with a little patience you'll be able to find anything you want. For now, get a good S10 E9, a good volume pedal, and a good amp, and go to it. ------------------
Student of the Steel, Fessy S12U, Emmons S12 E9 P/P, Carter D12, Nashville 400, Fender Squire, Peavey Transtube Supreme into JBL 15", 1968 Gibson J50, '60s Kay arch-top, 7-string Raybro, customized Korean Regal square-neck, roundneck Dobro 90C, 1938 Conn Chu Berry tenor sax, '50s Berg mouthpiece, Hamilton upright piano, Casio keyboard. You make it, I'll play it (sort of).
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David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 20 August 2003 12:59 AM
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David D. the other.
I wasn't saying get elaborate and expensive...
just that he most likely knows already what he wants to play and that should be considering when picking an instrument. Maybe try to tune an old guitar to C6/A7 and mess with it to rule out that sound as a need. After that an E9 S-10 is the most logicl choice. I know if I had only gotten an S-10 E9 I would have been VERY unhappy very quickly.
And that is not a reproach to the E9 setup. I was playing C6/A7 (and other tunings) lapsteel before and it was a natural step to add more strings and pedals for more blues and jazz power.
I can't get the same things on E9 that I can on my present C6 setup.
I will be looking at Universals and Reece's Bb6 etc at Scotty's. But I plan on keeping the Bud.
Just saying consider the music you expect to play when making the decision. Because THAT is the real bottom line. |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 20 August 2003 05:25 AM
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Instruments are very personal as we all know..and at some point we all move a little ahead of the bar.BUT..
my opinion, for what it's worth is to jump into a D10.. 8+5 minimum. You will have all you need to pretty much concentrate on the E9th tuing and right there in front of you will be the C6th tuning to fool with once you get the bug..and it will arrive. And on that note..99% of all written Steel Guitar Information and Instruction is for these these common standard tunings. If you meet another Steeler locally you can pretty much bet that he (or she) will have the same tuning or very close. And then there is the resale factor. Considering that probably 90% of the Steels out there used or new are a D10 configuration..and in demand..the resale factor is in your favor.. This does not mean that s12's or others are not fine Instruments and fine tunings..but they are not the most common..and I would bet that pretty much all S12 players started their Steel life in a S10 or D10...then evolved.. best of luck to ya.. tp [This message was edited by Tony Prior on 20 August 2003 at 05:36 AM.]
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George Kimery
Member From: Limestone, TN, USA
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posted 20 August 2003 05:32 AM
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Ditto to selecting the tuning that best fits the style of music you want to play. I started out with a D-10 because that is what all the pro's seemed to be playing. I then went to a U-12. Now after 30 years of playing, I am playing a 12 string extended E-9. The only thing I have really played to any extent over the years has been country, gospel, and some 50's rock. The extended E-9 gives me exactly what I need to play these styles of music. If I would have been using my brain at all, I would never have gotten the double 10 or the universal, although they were good learning experiences. Save yourself a lot of expense and trouble. If you know what type of music you want to play, get a guitar that is suited for the job. If you are leaning towards jazz and western swing and also some country, get a D-10. If you are more into country and/or gospel, get an E-9 Single 10 or 12 string Extended E-9. Don't make a decision on the basis of what somebody else is playing. They have what fits their needs, you get what fits yours. |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 20 August 2003 05:34 AM
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David,DO stop by the Excel booth at Scotty's. I have a different approach to the Universal that you might find interesting. Even if you don't like it, it will give you a little better understanding of the universal; so you can make a more informed decision as to which way to go. In any case, May our precious Lord richly bless you always, carl |
Cory Jensen
Member From: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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posted 20 August 2003 07:46 AM
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Thanks for all the responses guys. There's a lot to think about. This Forum is sure helping a lot though. |
Bob Carlson
Member From: Surprise AZ.
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posted 20 August 2003 08:29 AM
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I bought a SD-10 thinking I would never want to learn to play C6th. I was wrong...don't make that mistake.Bob |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 20 August 2003 09:10 AM
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Okay, in spite of what I said above, I agree with those who say that if you have aspirations toward western swing or jazz, get a double-neck or a universal. If you have experience with a 6th tuning on a lap steel, that's also a good reason to get something with that tuning in a pedal steel.It does seem to be true that when you start with an E9 neck only, it is difficult to pick up C6 latter, and many players never make the transition. So there is something to be said for getting a double-neck or universal right at the start, if you can afford it. But just realize that you will be learning 20 strings and two necks, rather than 10 strings and one neck. If you can handle that from the start, go for it. It all depends on the types of music you want to play and how ambitious you are. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 20 August 2003 10:04 AM
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I think that it's best to start without pedals. A D-8 Fender, Gibson or Rickenbacker tuned to E13 and C6 will teach you the basics of the E and C based tunings, and teach you how to use your hands.
When you graduate to pedals, you'll already know if you "need" C6th or not, based on how much affinity you felt for the back neck of the D-8. You'll also have a feel for whether or not you "need" lower strings on the E neck. Some people (like me) do, most don't.
I also firmly believe that nobody should try to learn E9th with less than 3+3. It would be like learning to play guitar with only two fingers. "I'll learn the other fingers later." Sure you will...------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 20 August 2003 at 01:00 PM.] |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 20 August 2003 12:55 PM
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b0b has a good point. The people who invented the pedal steel (E9 and C6) all played 9th and 6th tunings on non-pedal steels first, typically for many years. Even today, many people play dobro or lap steel before moving to pedal steel. If you are going straight from a regular guitar, it sure wouldn't hurt to get some lap steel under your belt before going to the pedals. Even if you plunge right in with a pedal steel, it is a good exercise to see how much you can get without the pedals. |
Ron Randall
Member From: Dallas, Texas, USA
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posted 20 August 2003 05:05 PM
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What did I start with?
I came from the six string guitar world and started with a squareneck Dobro. Found a string gauge chart, and started foolin' around with C6, A6, E7, E6, etc.
I really like western swing so my next move was a T8 Fender (no pedals). Now I had three necks to fool around with! I learned basic positions, majors, minors, forward and reverse slants, harmonized scales, etc. Ton of fun playing that old western swing.The next step was SU12. B6/E9. I was used to 6th tunings so the middle 8 strings were exactly the same. Learning all the positions with the pedals is the next never ending step. I'm glad I learned this way. I would do it again. ------------------
Stringmaster T8, Benoit 8, National Tricone, MSA U12 |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 29 August 2003 02:48 AM
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Starting on a non pedal guitar is fundementally correct..however.. the new student is not buying a Pedal Steel to emulate the Bob Wills era..I think they are attracted to the Alan Jackson era..I know I am... and ... if they don't start off hearing that moan and cry of the Pedals..they will move on to another Instrument..because in actuallity..they are two totally different Instruments to begin with . It's the cry and moan that attracts the new player ..not the technical theory..and the history behind it.. IF a new student to any instrument does not start playing some songs they are real familiar with pretty quickly, even poorly..they will not stay with it. If they stay in the theory mode or playing songs that maybe they don't even like too long..then it's goodbye... it's one of the following two... "Hey Honey .. I can play Buicks to the Moon.. listen ! " or "Hey Honey..Listen to this G scale in the Pentatonic mode that I just learned".. " Ain't I somethin' ?" "I told you I could learn this dang thing ! " " Wanna hear it again ? "..... "Wait , don't go away.. listen to what happens when I flat the 7th..." "Honey..come back..are you there ? " Ok..send the kids in ..." tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 29 August 2003 at 02:51 AM.] |
Bill Fulbright
Member From: Atlanta, GA
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posted 29 August 2003 07:30 AM
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I started off asking the very same question on this forum almost 4 years ago. I was looking for good advice and found it. Being a guitarist with 40 yrs exp. made the transition easier.I started with a U-12, which I liked very much, but because I wanted a more traditional sound, I re-tuned it a bit (to get the Dom. 7th on the 9th string) and put a pretty standard Ext. E9 co-ped on it. Later I sold it and bought a D-10. I am probably going to stick with the D-10 because I like the distinction of tunings on both necks, each of which has it plusses and minusses. I am glad I made the switch!! ------------------
Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site
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Scott Henderson
Member From: Eldon, Missouri, USA
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posted 29 August 2003 11:28 AM
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You jbow golfers hve a saying...drive for show putt for dough\Iguess what I'm saying is if you want to start making money quickly geet as well versed on the commercial sounds of E 9TH ASAP. Then worry about 6th stuff bands are looking for the players who can pick cover tunes. have fun make some money to pay for your guitar! I would recommend the U-12 because of several issues. It's a smaller guitar that has long gevity because the majority of the stuff you will be playing will be E9th in a band but when it's time to play 6th stuff it's there too ready to learn. I own a u-12 a D-10 and a lap love em all but my e9TH makes me the most money. If you-re just doing this for moeny first of all God Bless You. That's what it's all about but remember E9th is the $$$$$$maker i guess our saying should be...E nine to make a dime C6th is just for kix hahahaha make your self happy!!!!!!!! thats' the most important thing.------------------
Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com |
Cory Jensen
Member From: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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posted 29 August 2003 11:40 AM
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Thanks for all the very helpful responses. I decided on an SD-10, as I think the E9th neck will provide me with plenty to learn and plenty of opportunities for gigs, etc. And as far as I can tell from what I've read here, E9 should be able to cover most all the music that I want to play right now.I'm picking up a Sho-bud LDG 3+5 from fellow forum member Skip Mertz. It should arrive in a week or two. I also just ordered a Peterson VS-II Virtual Strobe tuner...if anyone has any thoughts about these, please see my thread in the electronics section. Thanks |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 29 August 2003 12:12 PM
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If it's just a "lark", get an S10 and get to it. That will give you some of the popular sounds, and plenty else to keep you busy for 2-5 years. The only problem I have with good S10's is that most of them seem overpriced. Why pay $1,200 to $1,500 for a nice used S10 whan you can get a nice used D10 (which is twice the guitar!) for around $1,800? If you intend on really staying with it for "the long haul", then it's a no brainer---just get a good D10 with 8&5. This configuration is the most popular, has the best chance for resale, has the largest selection available (in used guitars), has the most teaching material, and is arguably the most versatile, etc., etc., etc.. A good D10 with 8&5 is probably all the guitar you will ever need! Of course, this is only my opinion, but it's based on the simple fact that most all players with larger complements of pedals, levers, and strings just aren't playing any more...or any better, that most guys with 8&5 D10. Find a local steeler who can help you make a selection, or go to a steel dealer (Like Bobbe Seymour or Billy Cooper). Don't buy "blind" if you're just starting out |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 31 August 2003 06:29 AM
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I have stopped teaching steel. But IF I were to still teach, I would insist the person start out on a non pedal steel. If that drove the student away, then so be it. Most of the problems I see with new students in trying to swallow the complexities of a pedal steel, is being overwhelmed with sooooo much in one gulp. Also, there is a tremendously beautiful transition in the learning curve, when going from non pedal to pedal, that is often masked forever when not having the advantage of HAVING to slant the bar; to get this or that chord or harmony. NOT so much to learn to slant. Rather, to learn intervals in a way that opens up WHY the pedals and knee levers are there; and do what they do. carl | |
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