Can someone explain their reasoning for this to me? Doesn't matter if it takes difficult theory to explain why, I'll be able to follow it. I just don't know how to judge the utility for various musical styles of different copedants just from looking.

-Travis

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 04 September 2003 at 07:04 PM.]

I did not hear that statement. But had I, I would disagree with it totally.

A universal like Jeff Newmans has all the changes necessary for Jazz IMO. First of all, Jazz tends to be more in the manner notes are connected rather than what changes are on a PSG. And mucho single string stuff.

So I see no way that a C6 neck would be better for Jazz than the B6 part of a standard universal. It is all there.

I have eliminated "useless" pedals on the E6 "Real Universal" That I use.

Not only that but some of them do double duty, for both E9 and E6 playing..

My E's to F used on E9 Playing is the usual Boowah pedal by pulling the 12 string E to C#. Bobby Lee is one who does that on his Extended E9 12 string tuning. That is as far as I want to go with this post.

As far as Jazz goes, a guy can play Jazz on any tuning, if he is jazz minded....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 04 September 2003 at 07:53 PM.]

quote:

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There may be those who can do so, but I have yet to find anyone who can consistently identify if I'm playing a Bb6th, B6th or C6th. IF such a person exists, a very slight tone adjustment on the amp would obscure their judgement. At the Texas Steel Guitar Convention in 1998 I put my theory to the ultimate test. I played my E9th/B6th universal rather than my Bb6th which I normally use. Although the hotel was wall to wall with exceptional and gifted players, NOT ONE PERSON HEARD ANY DIFFERENCE IN MY PLAYING, STYLE OR SOUND. VIRTUALLY EVERYONE THERE ASSUMED I WAS USING MY Bb6th!

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Those kinds of analogys would most certainly have a negative impact on my playing because it would interrupt my thought process, which relates only to interval movement.

This is one reason why the locking concept which locks the E's down would not work for me. That certainly does not work when playing the E9th tuning, therefore it would not work for me on the 6th tuning, because its one and the same.

Admittedly I have heard some great players use the devise to their advantage, but it would simply not work for me in that it creates a barrier between the two tunings.

Relative to my way of thinking, everything should be channelled toward a musical flow. Having the ability to combine the two tunings instantly while only thinking about interval movement, is a distinct musical advantage.

As an example, a piano player does not think about a tuning, and neither does a guitar player. Instead most think of interval movement.

Consequently I never hold the knee lever down for an extended time when playing either concept, because I'm continually moving out of one into the other.

I personally prefer the Bb6th, especially when playing jazz because I like the feel and the response. In addition I like the musical flow of a dedicated setup in that it allows me the freedom of a mental musical flow which then manifests itself through the physical response.

The reason that I see for the steel guitar # key tunings (E,A,D,G) is that they are related to the open string chords on the standard guitar, ..there were not too many Homer Haines types in the early days so the guitar player banged away on open string chords.

As steel tunings got more sophisticated, fourth and fifth tones were added to the chord/tuning structure hence A6, E7\9, C6, C6\9, etc..

As strings got added, the C6 structure in particular began to migrate into other territory; Fs and Ds showed up in the lower strings. Respelling the C tuning/chord using these as roots gave FM9(IVM9) and Dm9(IIm9) on the I6\9 neck. The I6 was already an inversion of the VIm7, so we now had a palette of I,II,IV,& VI chords on one neck without even resorting to pedals/levers. Poor little E9, even with pedals and levers, was mostly a I,IV,V set of musical necks, and then mostly used as "partials".

One might see why the chord oriented player would be drawn to the 6th based extended tuning structures for chord flexibility; Those into Orchestra, swing groups (trios, sextets, etc.), Jazz/standards and the likes would find more to chew on also. After ripping off the single string clarinet/sax, trumpet, trombone parts they could do some chord oriented things.

The seventh based tunings (like E9) had some nice adjacent string tone apart tripletts available for the banjo roll oriented picker, and with the Emmons split found on the A & B pedals..why not have it all on one physical neck? Enter the "Universal" concept.

The question was "what is UNIVERSAL"? Is the open tuning to be 6th based or 7th based, ..do we stay with # keys or do we move to b keys, ..do we stay with 10 strings, or move to 12/14 strings? The answer depends upon what type of music and/or group you prefer.

My choice was 14 strings, Eb9/Bb6 extended to Ab6, EbM13, Eb13, Ebm13 musical necks (via changes). I use the B6 Lok(Bb6), or the equivalent lever held, so I have a choice of going either way. The M13 in the key of C gives C,E,G,B,D,F,A = 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 on adjacent strings = the line notes of the treble staff, and 3,4,5,6,& 7 tone chords on adjacent strings. The m13 in the key of D (up two frets) gives D,F,A,C,E,G,B on adjacent strings = the space notes on the treble staff, and 3,4,5,6,&7 tone chords for the same.

Don't use the two 13th series pedals and you return to the Eb9 structure without the C#(D) untill you want it. It works just as well as a Bb6/Eb9 as it does an Eb9/Bb6, or an E9/B6.

Curley and Julian used 11th chords in various forms in their tuning/setups, why not go the full 2 octaves and have 13th chords in their various forms particularly since 13th partials are also complete chords on their own.

Which type of tuning/setup is best for Jazz?, ..depends what you are calling Jazz, and if you are talking single note runs or available chords and variations thereof.

FWIW, I rarely hear newbies chiming in about the LOK issue, typically folks who are pretty set in their ways.

So here's the pitch...
The nice thing about a lever lock is that if you want to use it, it is there.
If you don't want to use it, just don't use it.

For the masses of S12U players that I hope will come pouring out of the woodworks over the remainder of my lifetime (I'm 39), I would say, get the LOK "option", because you are going to absolutely fall in love with both S12U, AND the 6th tuning, and you are not going to want to hold that lever over while you practice the 6th tuning for hours/days/weeks on end, using the overwhelmimg amount of C6th instructional material, most of which is written for no more than 1 or 2 knee levers.

There is some E9th/B6th specific instructional material out there too, but when it comes to B6th, or Bb6th, or "S12U-One Big Tuning" instructional material specifically, it just doesn't compare to the overwhelming amount of C6th stuff that is out there.
Learning to translate C6th tab to S12U is part of the deal, and will become second nature (if tab is a learning method you choose to use).

I'm into the swing thing, and in my last band I only played E9th on 2 songs during an 8-12pm gig .
I LOK into B6th because I feel that intonation wise, in general, the 6th tuning is much more forgiving than the 9th tuning, and I don't want the pitch of my E's to be dependant on a lever raise.

~pb

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 05 September 2003 at 10:35 AM.]

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by b0b on 05 September 2003 at 01:05 PM.]

quote:

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As far as Jazz goes, a guy can play Jazz on any tuning, if he is jazz minded...

---

in other words, don't let anything stop you.

The best way to understand this is to think in terms of the positions or "boxes" available. For a song in any given key, the E9 neck and the C6 neck each have a different set of the positions to work from. On a universal all the positions of the E9 neck are overlayed among all the positions of the C6 neck. So you get many more positions on the one uni neck than on either E9 or C6 alone, in spite of the fact that a uni may have fewer total strings, pedals and knee levers than the combined total on a D10.

Whether these many extra positions on a uni make up for the few additional special lick pedals or knee levers on a D10 is a matter of personal preference. I don't think one can figure this out by just looking at copedents on paper. You need to actually experience the richness of all those positions on a universal.

As Paul Franklin pointed out on one of these threads recently, he found the universal copedent too confining, because if you experiment with a new string, pedal or knee change for one tuning, it might affect the other tuning adversely. On a D10 or D12, the necks are independent and you don't have to worry about that. Paul is very involved with new changes, so this clearly makes sense for him. He said he came to this conclusion after looking at lots of copedents on paper. The conclusion would be true regardless, but the tradeoff might take on a different light with enough playing on a uni to experience Reece's one-neck many-positions way of thinking and playing.

At the moment I'm not good enough to make full use of even the most limited standard copedent of E9, C6 or a uni, so it would be kinda silly for me to worry about missing out on one or more of the new pedal and knee changes that are going around. But the vast number of postions and chords available on a uni are irresistable to me, so I am sticking with a uni for awhile. It seems really good for me as a generalist amateur who plays a little of everything. If I were a swing or jazz specialist, maybe I'd want to have an independent special neck for that. But it is hard for me to imagine giving up all the E9 neck chords available on a uni that are not available on a C6 neck. Also, if I were a country specialist that wanted to play exact covers of top 40 country with all the new licks the pros come up with, maybe I'd want a double neck for that.

A lock would be a nice option. I wouldn't want to use it for really playing, but for practicing it would be nice to lock myself into the B6 tuning just to force me to stay in it for long periods of time to learn more of it.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 05 September 2003 at 05:47 PM.]

Since I first met him, and heard him, I always knew he was "Jazz Minded"......al

(edited) As far as the lock goes, I believe it should be available as standard equipment on all U12 guitars. I wouldn't use it while playing a job.
But it is a good idea for locking it in, while practicing for an hour on your B6 stuff.)
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 06 September 2003 at 10:02 AM.]

On E9/B6, you use the Knee lever to go into B6. On Bb6/Eb9, you use the knee lever to go into Eb9.

IF you are into a lot of Jazz and Swing all the time, Reece's Bb6maj7 tuning is the greatest and I personally like it. Still, you can play all the country you want on it too.
As Dirk found out, it was easier to go From E9/B6 to Bb6/Eb9 for him.
As it was mentioned by Ed and b0b,about the horns, the Trumpet,Clarinet and Tenor Sax are Bb horns, and it is easier to play in flat keys for them.

That's why at the old jam sessions, one of the first song played, was "Blues in Bb".
That put the horn men in C ,for them, no sharps or flats. But in Bb for the piano man.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 08 September 2003 at 11:24 AM.]

Working A & B ("Eb9" mode in the Bb6/Eb9 tuning) with RKR in is a lot easier, possibly because the footwork is simpler anyway -- and is directly under the left knee. One is not constantly moving the foot toward the right, where the knee lever is.

[This message was edited by Dirk B on 08 September 2003 at 11:50 AM.]

The solution that's worked for me for more than 25 years is a knee lever that lowers the 8th string from E to D. The result is that not only are points 1 and 2 (above) covered, the problem of needing a change-lok or experiencing knee fatigue while playing full tunes in the '6th mode' is also solved.

Think about how you play C6, especially the I IV relationship between open C6 and the 6th pedal (F9). Since, on the universal, the 6th pedal position IS E9, it is easier to use and understand than on C6. Furthermore, since I lower both E's on one lever to give B6 and lower the 8th further to D on another, I RELEASE the E to D# lever when using the E to D, which raises 4 back to E. I rarely hold the E to D# lever for more than 8 bars. No fatigue whatsoever.

Putting what is usually on P6 on a lever makes the universal much more universal, in my opinion, and it solves the three problems mentioned above.

In regards to Reece's tuning vs E9/B6, I believe that he and I agree that the two tunings are equivalent, almost identical. He had mentioned that he actually played a set in St. Louis using E9/B6 and nobody knew the difference. There are a few changes that Reece uses on Bb6 that are not standard C6 changes, but the important musical changes and relationships are there. I would recommend looking closely at Reece's Bb6 and comparing to E9/B6 to find the similarities. I think most of the differences are personal preference (Reece's) as opposed to major modifications that make Bb6 a more powerful jazz tuning. It is great, but so is standard C6 -- just listen to Buddy or Herby.

It ain't the meat, it's the MOTION, IMHO.

You took the words right out of my mouth. IF I cannot have a knee lever (preferably on the right knee) that emulates the 6th pedal on C6 on my U-12, I do NOT wish to play a U-12. As you stated, this one simple change makes playing a universal the ultimate, IMO.

I resisted going to a universal for over 30 yrs; UNTIL the day I hit upon this change. In my heart and mind I believed it would solve the "problem" I had with all universal copedents I had seen.

After receiving the guitar, there is no longer any wondering about it. Within just moments, it proved my thoughts about it. In my book it is the ONLY way to go. Of course that is me. Others will differ. The following are some of the reasons I must have it on the right knee:

1. It can be used with every single pedal and knee lever except those that are impossible in combination.

2. It is particularly great using it with pedals A and B. I like it so well, I am now hampered in my playing my D-10 (on C6) after getting used with A and B on my U-12.

3. It moves pedals 5 and 7 next to each other where they should always have been. I can't tell you how much I like this.

4. It allows me to easily have the lowering of the E's on LKR where I am most comfortable with it. IE, since I do not have to rock on and off of pedals 5 and 6 lowering of the E's on LKR is quite nice.

6. By having LKR lower the E's, it allows certain pedal/knee lever combinations not possible otherwise.

Larry, it was an honor and pleasure to meet you in Stlouis.