But I am interested in how those who tune straight up (440 reference) do it.

In other words, do you use a tuner solely? Do you have so-called "perfect pitch"? Do you tune it using the way all beginning guitar books say to do it, IE, duplicate the sound of a given string at a given fret with another given string at a given fret?

Or do you have some other way you do it?

JUST the ET folk please. Thanks in advance.

Bengt Erlandsen
ZumSteel E9ext 7+7 & other stringed instruments

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 September 2003 at 01:45 PM.]

I am not asking who tunes ET or JI; or why; or the virtues of one over the other.

I beleive I may have confused you. I want to know in detail how you get all the strings and pedal/knee lever changes tuned to ET; since you do not have the luxury of tuning the beats out like JI provides.

Do you rely solely on a tuner; or are your ears sooo good that you can hear ET like most of us instinctively hear JI; or do you use some other tuning method?

Thanks,

Bengt

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 September 2003 at 02:52 PM.]

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"Gimme a steel guitar, 2 or 3 fiddles and a Texas rhythm section that can swing"..W. Nelson

I use a tuner to tune the open strings to 440.
The 2 G# strings by ear (about -8 cents).
All pedals and knee levers by ear.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

My question again is, if you do the above, how do you get them all to 440? Do you use your ears, do you use a tuner? Or how do you know when ALL strings and all changes are straight up 440 since you no longer have the benefit of "tuning the beats out"?

Thanks again,

------------------
Doug
Dekley 12U 4k & 7p
2-Nash 400 & Quadraverb

[This message was edited by Doug Rolfe on 12 September 2003 at 06:35 PM.]

They quit doing that about 200 years ago when the organs and clavichords that were tuned to perfect intervals would only play in tune in a very limited group of keys. Enter JS Bach and others to "temper" the tunings of certain intervals to allow the instrument to be decently in tune and play in all the major and minor keys.

Really all you have to do is just temper the major thirds until they suit you. It is after all a guitar---it does not play perfectly in tune-only close.

May or may not be the case, but that is NOT what this thread is all about. This thread is not about the virtues of JI versus ET or who tunes to JI or ET or somewhere in between; or why.

Very respectfully, I once again will ask that this thread be restricted to how a person tunes IF, that person tunes all strings, pedal and knee lever changes to ET?

In other words:

Do you use a tuner?

Do you use your ears?

Do you use a tuner and your ears?

Do you use some other method of tuning straight ET?

Etc?

I sincerely need this information for a project I am doing. That is the reason for this thread.

Thanks in advance for telling us how YOU tune your guitar, IF, you tune everything to straight up 440 (ref). If you tune JI or any where between JI and ET, that is for another time and another thread.

God bless you all,

I'm a newbie here and I want to learn all I can.

Thanks

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Bob Kononiuk
______________
Carter SD-10
Nashville 112

Really hard to ear it with other stuff going on.

I can come in the room whistling an E and it's about perfect on my tuner, or restring a guitar and adjust it up after the strings slack without one, and it's usually damn close.

Nothing's perfect.

I guess mine's called "acquired" if it's close. I lose it if I'm not playing all te time.

My wife's got perfect bitEJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 13 September 2003 at 12:27 AM.]

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Bob,

Here's the scoop.

ET = Equal temperament

JI = Just intonation

Now what do these to phrases mean?

ET means that each note is separated by the same mathematical space. IE, in our 12 semi-tone system of music, all 12 notes are equally spaced based on a logarithmic formula.

Thus the name equal temperament. With minor exception, pianos, organs and all fretted instruments are mostly tuned to ET.

Just Intonation shifts certain notes away from equal spacing. And the amount of shift is not consistent. IE, in the case of C E G (Key of C), the G note is sharpened just slightly. But the E note is flattened widely from 440 reference (standard concert pitch).

The reason for this is; most human ears do NOT like to hear "beats" between any two notes when it comes to music. Beats mean a warble like sound generated IN the ears, when any two notes are NOT harmonically "just"; or "perfect" as in the phrase "a perfect fifth".

Ever since our 12 semi-tone system was created, there has been an unending battle as to how to deal with this anamoly. Mathematicss and science tend to dictate we use ET. Sound perception in the human ear tends to dictate JI.

The battle will never end. And there are volumes and volumes and an infinite amount of rhetoric that has been expended to try and prove all kinds of thesis on the subject.

Plus, you have those that insist one is correct in deference to the other.

A piano tuner has little choice. A fretted instrument player has little choice. However, fretless instruments and instruments like trombones are not limited in their ability to shift tones from a straight ET based tuning.

In comes our beloved steel guitar. And it opens up a pandoras box of arguments pro anc con for ET versus JI or somewhere in between BECAUSE it can shift ANY note up or down almost infinitely! When playing with other instruments this can lead to mucho chaos.

I refuse to argue the point any longer. Simply because it is a case in futility. However in my heart, I KNOW ET has, and always will be correct, regardless of all the arguments in favor of JI.

Strangely I do NOT tune ET. I tune mostly straight JI. There are a few places I tune ET. BUT there ARE players who do tune STRAIGHT up 440. I mean; ALL strings and ALL changes on their PSG's are tuned straight up 440. My precious friend Bill Stafford is one of them. And I love to hear him play!

Weldon Myrik tuned JI for 40 yrs and so did Buddy Emmons. Both now tune almost totally ET. Why?

I could go on forever, but hopefully, the above will give you some idea of what is going on.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

By "straight up" here is meant that all strings/pedals/levers are tuned to as close to "no cents" difference from the 12th root of 2 scale. This scale may start from any reference frequency (440 Hz, 441 Hz, 261.5 Hz, or where the keyboard is tuned).

I don't believe that Science and math "dictate" anything, they just provide descriptions of things to facilitate understanding and communication, ..some people use these descriptions to try and "dictate" their ideas to others.

I don't believe that the 12 tone scale was "created", ..it evolved. Our choices in harmonies have become more complex as time has passed. All of the "needed" frequency ratios for 12, 24, etc. tone scales are provided in a single vibrating open cord = string in our case.

How do you tune your 1st, 7th ,4th and 5th strings on the E9 neck ? With pedals down or up ?

Also if you tune open straight up and then you put the bar on the strings around the 10th and 18th fret the tuning is no longer straight up.

Bob

Also if you tune open straight up and then you put the bar on the strings around the 10th and 18th fret the tuning is no longer straight up."

Bob,

-------------------------------------------

Bob,

I tune the 1st and 7th strings so that they are JI with the 5th string which is JI with the 4th string.

Then I tune two compensators (on the A pedal) with A and B down, to make the 1st and 7th strings JI with the 5th string which has been tuned JI with the 4th string.

In other words I tune all strings except the 9th string so they are all JI with, and without pedals. I use compensators as needed to achieve this.

The 9th string is tuned to straight up ET. As is the 4th and 8th strings. ALL others are JI.

Your last question is not applicable because I have NEVER tuned straight up. I tune JI wherever possible. Always have, always will, because my ears are super sensitive to beats. However, the way I tune (mostly JI) is dead wrong IMO; even though I will continue to do it this way.

Thanks for asking, and May Our Lord bless you always,

With much admiration and respect, we will agree to disagree.

God bless you,

------------------
Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa

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Peter,

This has been done by a number of players. The following is the consensus I have gleaned from that.

"It sounds ok on the piano, but it sounds terrible on my PSG".

I believe I know why this is. But since that falls outside the reason for this thread, I will suggest you do a search on ET or JI and there is much debate about it over a number of years on this forum.

Thanks for posting,

ET, JI and Difference in Hz.

	ET	 JI	   Diff      Beat Frequency (beats/second)
E	164.8	 164.8	      0	       0
F	174.6	 175.8	   +1.2	     1.2
F#	185	 185.4	   +0.4	     0.4
G	196	 197.8	   +1.8	     1.8
G#	207.7	 206	   -1.7	     1.7
A	220	 219.7	   -0.3	     0.3
Bb	233	 231.8	   -1.2	     1.2
B	247	 247.2	   +0.2	     0.2
C	261.6	 263.7	   +2.1	     2.1
C#	277	 274.7	   -2.3	     2.3
D	293.7	 296.6	   +2.9	     2.9
Eb	311	 309	   -2.0	     2.0
E	329.6	 329.6	      0	       0

Carl, tunin' ET "by ear" sure looks tough to do.

This is why I wanted to know. What is difficult for me to understand is HOW they did it before tuners.

JI is simple to tune, since one is going for a specific human perceivable parameter. IE, "zero beat". But ET does NOT fit within that parameter.

How does one "count" the beats by ear? I certainly can't. But apparently, there are those blessed with a God given talent that lets them NOT only tune ET without tuners, but have so-called "perfect pitch" to boot.

Jenee' Keener told us on this forum, that she can listen to a tune and know its key instantly and she can play what she hears without any problems.

I find this talent to be awesome and incredible. I do NOT believe it is learned, rather I believe it is only nurtured. That is, the basic ability was given by Jesus, and over time it was cultivated.

There is one thing for sure, I do NOT have it. But then, Jesus fills my storehouse to abundant overflowing in other ways, so there shant ever be a grumble or complaint; lest I betray my precious Savior,

Yes, one can count beats in terms of Hz just as one can count seconds, ..with varying degrees of accuracy. Some folk are better at it than others, some thru natural talent, some thru practice, some via both (use it or lose it).

Much of what is often called "absolute pitch" is really "relative pitch". Recognizing of a key from a passage is not particularly difficult if you work at it a bit (ear training).

Before tuners (electronic) the largest part of the guitar world just said "give me an E" and went from there. Some standard guitar pickers would tune one way for a tune in E and another for a tune in C. In all cases, if they were playing with a piano, they tuned the primary open string to the piano; If they played with a harmonica, stomach steinway etc., same game.

It would seem to follow that the instrument designer should strive to make an instrument that is impervious to the environment, and the instrumentalist to become part of the instrument and as such compensate for anything deficient/variable in the instrument.

Tune for what sounds good to you (or the band leader)in the musical environment in which you find yourself, ..call it whatever you like. In the classroom, you must be more precise with the terminology (don't say chromatic when you mean diatonic!), but in the barn, call it whatever fits the farmer.

As far as tuning by ear is concerned, I can use the tuner, set to "441", and tune the E's. Then I can tune the B's with the E's, no beats. Then I tune the F#'s with the B's, no beats. Then I tune the C#'s with the F#'s, no beats. Then I tune the G#'s with the C#'s, no beats. Now the A's can be tuned with the E's, no beats. D#'s can be tuned with the G#'s, no beats. D's tuned with the A's, no beats.

That's about as far as I can go, using beats as a reference.

------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

And by the way, I think you are wrong about mathematics and science dictating that ET is any more correct than JI. The JI notes for a given key and scale are determined as small whole fractions of the fundamental. These fractions are much simpler than the ET intervals, but they are absolutely precise mathematically and scientifically. Our ears recognize and like these simple mathematical relationships. Within that one key, JI is mathematically correct and ET is not. But when you try to play in another key, that new key will not be JI for itself without retuning. The need for ET arises because we want to play our instruments in more than one key without retuning. Science and mathmatics steps in and offers the compromise solution of ET, by which all notes are made equally out of tune in all keys, and no key stands out as being more out of tune than another.

The orchestral strings solved this problem by having stings tuned in 5ths, which are very close to the same in both JI and ET. All the other notes are fretless and are played by ear. This means they can be played JI in any key. Horns have their holes and valves tuned by ET (I think), but the final pitch is set by the mouth, so they also can play JI in any key. Keyboards and fretted instruments must tune ET.

Thanks for your comments. Very respectfully we will agree to disagree.

God bless you,

Please close this thread. I have sufficient info for what I needed.

My sincere thanks to all who answered my question of how you tune straight up ET.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 13 September 2003 at 09:01 PM.]

quote:

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I know that piano tuners can tune ET using only a small set of tuning forks. So they have some rules and tricks for getting all the notes ET by ear I think. Also, they don't tune strictly ET. They flat the notes a littel in the upper octaves, and sharp them a little in the lower ones.

---

The method for establishing the piano's temperament by ear is to follow a system which mathematically dictates certain beat rates for certain intervals. Hearing beats to the degree necessary to establish the temperament in the center section of a piano is a skill most people can learn, if they're willing to put the time into it.

It isn't really possible to tune the temperament on every piano so that the number of beats in the test intervals come out theoretically perfect. The important thing is that the test intervals' relationships to each other, in terms of faster/slower/equal, stay basically the same.

quote:

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If you include the steel guitar in with the other tempered instruments then there is no way you can tune EVERY note straight up on your tuner and be in tune.
They quit doing that about 200 years ago when the organs and clavichords that were tuned to perfect intervals would only play in tune in a very limited group of keys. Enter JS Bach and others to "temper" the tunings of certain intervals to allow the instrument to be decently in tune and play in all the major and minor keys.

---

At piano tuning school, I was taught the standard account of how Bach (1685-1750) composed "The Well-Tempered Clavier" as a demonstration for equal temperament. I have since learned that some challenge that version of the story, suggesting instead that Bach was in fact advocating an intermediate system.

Sorry to carry on Carl, but I hope this answers a question or two.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 14 September 2003 at 12:46 AM.]