This phenomenon is called "hysterisis". Most keyed guitars have it more or less. It is theorized by those in the know, that it is caused by some of the string to the left of the roller NOT coming back after a lower is released, resulting in the rest of the string becoming sharp.

Nut rollers can be a part of the problem. BUT most of it is due to the above. I have NEVER seen a keyed guitar that doesnt have it, more or less. This is why some of us buy and like keyless guitars. They almost totally eliminate the problem by their inherrent design.

Emmons' LeGrandes have a "compensation" option that cures it.

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 09 October 2003 at 06:10 PM.]

Now I'm an Emmons guy.I've owned every major brand except the new MSA.However I still come back to Emmons for the sound I hear in my head.But they have the worst roller bridges of any guitar I've owned.

The only keyed guitar I've owned that did not need lower return compensators was a Fessy.I even tryed to make the strings come back sharp by lowering them even further,(2 whole tones) in some cases.They always came back perfect or with in 2 cents of where they should be.This guitar had the most perfect rollers I've ever seen.

So called "hysterisis" has been with us since we have been able to raise AND lower a given string. Every single keyed guitar I have ever checked, has it. Some more, some less. I had it on my Fender 400, '69 Emmons' push/pull, and my LeGrande. The amount of hysterisis was about the same, ie, a few cents on all of them.

The fact that we have the "more or less" scenario suggests to me that the nut rollers may have something to do with it. I don't know. And I am not sure that if they do, how much they contribute.

Having said that, there are two things that seem to me to be paramount. One, I believe with all my heart, that the late Ron Lashley would have redesigned the nut rollers IF they were the major cause; rather than going to the trouble of using compenasators, which as you say, takes up one of the 2 lower holes. I believe Bruce Zumsteg would do the same; instead of offering compensators to those that complain about it.

Secondly, keyless guitars solve the problem almost completely (not quite, but almost). This tells me that it is the string length beyond the roller that is the major culprit. I stand corrected if in fact it is the roller that is the problem.

I do know the following to be a fact. One can check a dozen brand spanking new LeGrandes (without compensators) at the ISGC, and every single one of them will have it; and the amount is almost identical on each one. I simply cannot see every one of them having nut rollers that need oiling and/or honing.

take care dear friend,

Good post. I might add that although the "cure" for hysterisis is indeed located at the changer on several PSG's, the cause is not in the changer.

Let me give you an analogy of how cures often are at a different place than the root cause in many things.

Take a bow as in "bow and arrow". The reason it bows is caused by the string. Yet if you want to straighten the bow and still leave the string tight, you would counteract the string's force maybe by using another string in the opposite plane to straighten the bow. In essence countering the pull of one string with another string in opposite planes.

Such is the case on Emmon's LeGrandes using compensators. The cause is the string beyond the roller not comin back to pitch. Since Ron Lashley knew that pitch changes can also be controlled at the changer. Thus it was easier and better if he located the compensators at the changer instead of at the other end where the problem originates.

Thanks Kevin for the ZB tip on lubing the roller. That did seem to help it a few cents and almost got it. That ZB nut axle is a bit fat and kind of friction prone.

What I notice now is that if I tune the open string after a raise, the only problem left is the return after a lower being slightly sharp, like 4 cents. BUT, if I pick the barely sharp string kind of hard just once, the picking flattens the sharp string back to in-tune.

What a hysterical subject

A lot of guitar makers are using Sperzel locking tuners instead the locking nut these days on whammy guitars. I have a McInturff with this setup and it works very well. Maybe these would help on PSG, not sure if they would fit the PSG peghead. If you are not familiar with these, you put the string through the hole, then a threaded part comes up and clamps the string. Then you tune up, and there is usually only about half a wrap on the post.

This eliminates or at least drastically reduces the hysteresis in the wraps which is also a problem.

I once heard a player say, "my steel does not have cabinet drop, it is dead on no matter what pedal I may-sh!" (I assume he meant engage or push )

I asked him if he would mind my putting a tuner on it and seeing for myself. He said, "not at all, be my guest".

When I discovered his 6 string dropped a full 6 cents when I engaged the A pedal, he exclaimed,

"Well it NEVER did that before you messed with it!

He sounded pretty serious to me.. ;

Mine has done that several times. However the difference between that and hysterisis is as follows:

1. When the changer needs cleaning and/or oiling, lowered strings come back flat; raised strings come back sharp. IE, the fingers are sticking.

2. Hysterisis works just the opposite. Lowered strings come back sharp; raised strings come back flat.

The latter is caused by the string "overstretching" or "overloosening" once raise or lowered. And the root cause is the string length between the nut roller and the key. Some feel it is the roller not rolling back to its idle state.

While this may be some of the cause, I believe that most of it is due the nature of the string itself. Thus the reason for the word "hysterisis". Keyless guitars are the answer; if one does not want to use "compensators".

However, many players do not like the loss of certain overtones when going from a keyed to a keyless guitar. A few welcome it.