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Author
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Topic: Adjustment of tension springs on all-pull
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David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 31 October 2003 09:35 AM
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The B pedal on my Fessy sometimes catches and pops near the end of its travel. I had the same problem before and got rid of it by adjusting the tension spring on that finger. But this doesn't seem to be working this time. What happens if I adjust that spring too far in one direction? How do you know when the spring is optimally adjusted? |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 31 October 2003 10:28 AM
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David, I would suspect the popping is happening on a long lower, probably lowering a whole tone. I think what is happening is the spring rides too close to the end of the lowering finger on most brands and a long pull on the lowering lever put in end of the finger in a downward arc that allows it to contact the lowering spring. I have solved this by putting a rubber "spacer" under the spring where it clears the stop bar on the offending spring. This jacks the spring up enough to clear the lowering finger and stops that popping.
Jerry |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 02 November 2003 10:04 AM
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Any other suggestions? |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 02 November 2003 11:30 AM
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David:
If you get the spring too tight.The string will not lower enough.Especially if you have a whole tone lower or more.If it's too loose it will not return to pitch after a lower. As for the fix.You may just have a bad spring??If you don't have an extra you might try trading out with the 7th string.MOST guys don't raise or lower this string.Just a thought.............bb BTW: Great idea as always from Mr. Roller.[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 02 November 2003 at 11:35 AM.] |
Ricky Davis
Moderator From: Spring, Texas USA
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posted 03 November 2003 01:28 AM
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David; if I understand you correctly??>You are pushing your "B" pedal to raise the 3rd and 6th string G# to A???right?
And on the way up; your hearing a pop/catch/click, on something??.
The spring at the bottom on the changer fingers are holding the lower section of the finger....so in essence, that spring does not move when you are raising the strings.
So I'm thinking....there is catch somewhere....ie..A rod binding on something...or the rod pops down in the hole at the nylon tuner or something like that.
Is it affecting the raise of the strings??
Ricky |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 03 November 2003 05:11 AM
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Ricky, you are more perceptive than I. I didn't notice he said the B pedal was the culprit. I would suggest in that case that you watch the pull rods as you activate the pedal, and one at a time take ahold of the rods that are activated and slightly tug downward on each to find which is popping.
When you find it, do something to slightly affect it's path of travel. You can usually barly bend the rod to cause it to take a slightly different path of travel and it will not bind and pop. Also a drop of oil at both ends of the belly rods might stop it. Sorry for the misinformation the first time. I need to pay attention or shut up.
edited for hopefully a more exact remedy.[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 04 November 2003 at 05:52 PM.] |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 03 November 2003 05:50 AM
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There is a pop that is quite common all LeGrande models. I noticed it when I first got my guitar. I have seen it on others. In my case it is highly intermittent. IE, it might go for weeks or even months an not do it. Then it might do it a couple of times and then not do it for a week or so. Etc.Took me a while to figure out what is causing it. And let me say that this popping, may NOT be what is the problem in your case, but just in case I will tell you what is causing it on mine. Before I do I need to explain something about ALL all-pulls PSG's. There is a built in problem that to my knowledge has no really good cure. The problem is the threads on the end of the pull rod that the nylon tuner threads onto, CAN, I repeat CAN cause a scraping sound when double or triple raises (and lowers) are engaged IF, a single raise is already engaged. Example: the F lever is engaged AND you engage the C pedal. When this happens the bare exposed thread on the F pull rod can scrape against the changer finger when the F to F# change is taking place as the C pedal is being engaged. I say it "can" happen. It may not. It ALL depends on the angle that rod goes thru the changer finger hole and how far the finger moves when the C pedal is engaged; while one holds the E to F lever engaged. Some manufacturers just let it happen. That is, most players are not ever going to hear it; because the level that has become norm is soooo loud; NO human could even begin to hear it. But when it comes to Emmons', we had an owner who was like no other. When anyone else thinks about it, Ron Lashley has forgotten about it. He was the most incredible genious I have EVER known. So he decided to keep the above from happening. And how did he do it? Well, he covered up the threads whith a little nylon tube (spacer) that went between the nylon tuner and the changer finger. Probably not one player in a 1000 knows what those infernal little nylon spacers are for. But Ron in all his genious was unable to foresee a "pop" that might happen as a result of those pesky rascals. And therein lies WHY my Emmons' sometimes pops. What happens is this: 1. IF the pull rod's angle going thru the changer hole is just right. And.. 2. IF the pull is sufficiently long, that little nylon spacer will get cocked just enough that when pressure is released, it will snap back into normal position. This snapping is reverberated thru the finger and resonates into a POP. Took me a very long time to figure out what was causing this infernal pop. Once I saw it, it made perfect sense. So what is the answer? OK, simply CHANGE the angle. And carl how do I do this? 1. Find the nylon spacer that is popping. It is very easy to see now that you know what you are looking for. 2. trace that rod back to its bellcrank. 3. Loosen the set screw on that bellcrank. 4. Move the bellcrank just a smidgeon one way or the other. 5. Tighten the setscrew. In almost every case this will cure it. If it doesn't, move it just a little bit more. At least that is the story on my "pop" "and I am sticking to it"  May Jesus right all wrongs, carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 03 November 2003 at 05:58 AM.] |
RON PRESTON
Member From: Dodson, Louisiana, USA
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posted 03 November 2003 05:57 AM
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Jerry,
No Problem, the way I look at it, we in the Steel community just got a "2 4 1" deal, or should I say "Blue light Special"...What a Deal. I had that "Popping Problem" once, and it about drove me Nuts. Looks like we can learn about the problem both for Lower AND raises. I really like that Idea you had Jerry, about the "Lowering" problem. This has NOTHING to do with THIS problem, BUT, Once after I built my steel at Emmons, a REAL STRANGE thing happened. (Has ANYONE ever had THIS one?) I put my FIRST set of strings on, and tuned up...When I started playing, everything sounded great, until my bar was OVER the 8th fret..The 4th string, E, was WAY out of tune...ONLY over the 8th fret. NEVER heard of this one, much less knowing what to do to fix the deal. Ha, Jack Strayhorn walked in the Factory, and without blinking an eye, he said.."Change that E string, The THICKNESS of the string IS NOT TRUE, due to Factory Screwups." I changed it, and Wa-La, NO PROBLEM...Been playing for Years..NEVER HEARD THAT ONE...And never BEFORE or AFTER had that Problem. All due to NOT BEING A TRUE 0.14 MM. Learn something NEW everyday..
Has anyone ever had that happen to them? I would have NEVER figured that one out without Jack.  I thought is was The Changer, A bad tuner, a....well, I could go on and on... [This message was edited by RON PRESTON on 03 November 2003 at 06:04 AM.] |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 03 November 2003 07:19 AM
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Thanks for the ideas, guys. I'm still looking. It's a Fessy 12-string. It's very difficult to trouble shoot this, because it doesn't do it every time, only about once out of 4 or 5 times. The B pedal pulls stings 3, 6, and 10 a half step. It catches just before the string reaches the right pitch, then it pops and goes to pitch. The pop reverberates through the whole guitar, so it is very difficult to locate. I think it is in the changer, but I can't even tell which of the 3 strings is doing it. When I solve it I'll let you know how I did it. |
Jim Palenscar
Member From: Oceanside, Calif, USA
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posted 03 November 2003 07:45 AM
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Carl- the problem that you mentioned with the threads of a pull rod catching on the changer can be easily solved by simply using a pullrod whose threads BEGIN slightly to the right of the changer (slightly after the rod exits the changer finger. Properly done the adjusting delrin/nylon tuning nut should be enlarged (a couple of drill sizes is sufficient) a titch (about 1/8")at the end to accommodate the short part of the pullrod that is not threaded that extends into the adjusting area but this is not mandatory. This enables the changer finger to slide on an unthreaded part of the pullrod at all times when activated by another pull. |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 03 November 2003 07:46 AM
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Dave,
It's what Carl said. Look where the pull rod extends through the changer finger (usually a lower, in my experience). Take a piece of crocus cloth or wet/dry paper and take a few molecules of metal off the area where the threads extend beyond the nylon nut and through the changer.One of my Fessies did that and that was the cure. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Bengt Erlandsen
Member From: Brekstad, NORWAY
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posted 03 November 2003 07:52 AM
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I had the same trouble on my Bpedal on one of my guitars. What was happening was that the pull-rod catched on to the top part of the hole in the changer and when it almost reached the full raise the angle of the raise-changer would make the pull-rod snap to the bottom of the hole in the changer since the hole that the pull rod goes thru is slightly larger than the pull-rod it self. A slight bend of the pull-rod fixed the problem. To troubleshoot you might loosen the nylon tuner on each string one at a time to see which string is causing problem or if the problem is another place than at the raise-changer.Bengt Erlandsen |
Jim Smith
Member From: Plano, TX, USA
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posted 03 November 2003 08:06 AM
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quote:
the adjusting delrin/nylon tuning nut should be enlarged
Good point Jim. The later model Dekley tuning rods had a tight clearance hole for the first 1/4" or so, specifically for the purpose of not letting the threads grate on the changer holes. Besides being a neat solution, we didn't have the expense of an extra piece for a spacer.  |
Gino Iorfida
Member From: Oakdale, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 03 November 2003 08:30 AM
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I think the idea of having the threads start PAST the raise/lower holes (on the tuning nut side, not the inside), with overlenght tuning nuts/widened hole etc IS a very good idea, not only to avoid the popping sound, but the threads rubbing could cause wear on the holes....then again, yet another advantage of a push pull  |
John Bechtel
Member From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.
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posted 03 November 2003 10:48 PM
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Well, here you go! The threads of the pull-rods should not extend beyond the nylon tuner! When the pull-rods are installed, the nylon-tuners should be turned all the way on to the rod until the threads are slightly inside the nylon. Then back off the nylon-tuner about 3 complete revolutions. Then install the rod onto the puller. Do this to all the pull-rods. Then start adjusting by (for example) pushing the (A)pedal to the point where whichever string requires the most travel reaches it's proper pitch, and set the pedal-stop-screw.(about 1/2 turn sharp) Then push the (A)pedal again and back off the nylon tuner slightly until the string drops to the proper pitch. this will take te extra travel out of each pedal. Then just back off the rest of the pull-rods on each pedal. They will all be slightly sharp! As for the return-spring adjustments on each string, the tension of each individual spring should be adjusted with the guitar upside-down, and operating the pedal or KL that raises that particular string. Engage the pedal/KL very, very slowly and loosen the spring-tension far enough that the lowering mechanisum begins to lift off the stop-plate. Then return just enough tension so that the spring does not begin to stretch! (no lift-off) You only need enough tension to let the string return to pitch after lowering. This adjustment will take care of that. If it doesn't lift off when you raise the string very slowly, it will have enough tension to return to pitch when lowering! By adjusting all the return-springs in this manor, you'll find that all of your lowering pedals/KL's will operate much easier! Plus, you'll get rid of a lot of sloppy pedal-action. You have to make sure that you don't over-tune. That's why you need to leave just a little extra (1/2 turn) in the pedal-stops. Then, after going over the entire set-up, you can readjust the pedal heights, and get a fresh-start and enjoy your steel as it was meant to be! This info. comes from many years of hands-on experience! ------------------
“Big John” {(<< Uh~
http://community.webtv.net/KeoniNui/BigJohnBechtels |
Joseph Meditz
Member From: San Diego, California USA
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posted 07 January 2006 08:17 PM
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Was the source of David Doggett's problem ever conclusively determined? I have experienced the same thing on my new Fessy. And it's not the springs rubbing or the rod threads catching. It's at the end of the travel of the A pedal and 10th string. It goes off like a trigger. You can see this happen from underneath. Tightening the spring a bit seems to have solved it. There seems to be a sweet spot for this spring tension. But I'd like to understand what is going on here. Thanks,
Joe PS: I also had spring boinging noises as the springs rubbed against the bottom plate of the changer. I slipped a 1"x4" piece of thin slippery flexible plastic, similar to page protector material, in between the springs and the plate. It just floats in there loosely and works perfectly. |
Joseph Meditz
Member From: San Diego, California USA
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posted 27 February 2006 04:18 PM
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I feel obliged to report the status of this. The "problem" with this brand new instrument was that the changer fingers were a little too dry as evidenced by the binding and creaking that accompanied the clicking and popping.I put a drop of 3 in One oil where the cam pushes against the finger. (Not sure of the terminology.) And, voila! The pedals were and are now very smooth and without any binding feeling or creaking sounds and no popping or clicking. Being a newbie I was reluctant to report my findings owing to lack of confidence in the fix. But after about 7 weeks and many hours of absolutely flawless, pleasurable, operation, I feel that I have found the solution. What I think was going on was that the binding was causing the finger to buckle a bit, just enough for it to catch on the "combs." For that reason, tightening the springs lessens the occurence of the problem by keeping the fingers straighter. Btw, I have since loosened some of the springs without any problems. Joe |
Bernie Straub
Member From: Folly Beach, South Carolina, USA
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posted 28 February 2006 10:55 AM
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Joe, thanks for the closure on this. As you know, I had an identical issue with a brand new guitar. Absolutely amazing what a spot of 3-in-1 oil can do! I can also report trouble-free operation since the fix.Bernie |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 28 February 2006 01:55 PM
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My problem was solved the hard way. Someone broke in my home and stole my Fessy. I bought a Zum. Problem solved. However, it seemed to shift to my bank account, which was suddendly a lot smaller.  ------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards |
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