When you hear a steel player you can often point out which licks she/he have been practicing lately. If you compare and listen to a good jazz sax player for instance, the same thing isn't noticeable. We have something to learn from that.....

I think we should start taking it to the next level and think more in bigger/longer frases instead in separate/divided licks.

MORE MUSIC - LESS LICKS!

My way of avoiding certain licks is I have to small books where I write up certain melodic lines/phrases. One book is the "things I will not play anymore because it is overused"
The other is "new ideas that is worth keeping" They will eventually end up in the first book after a while.

So serious is this scenario that NO steel guitar session man would last one day IF they were not given the inate talents of being able to find that lick NO body else had discovered.

And so it is; there is a constant drive to find yet another "lick" that is new. And yes entire phrases CAN an also be "licks".

Some of the most classic "NEW" licks that have set the steel guitar world on fire are:

"Together Again". ONLY in one small part of Tom's break did he play anything that had not already been played. Yet "that lick" is considered by more than just a few to be the greatest break ever played on the PSG.

"We Could". Walter Haynes use of the open string to create an entire phrase "lick" is also one of the all time greatest licks.

"Night life". Buddy Emmons lowering his bottom string on C6 a tone and a half was sooooo unusual that the lick even coined a lick phrase; "boowah".

"Look at Us". John Hughey's use of the open string scenario on 3 succesive "licks" is so haunting and soooo beautiful that some have dubbed it "second ONLY to Tom Brumley's lick".

Paul Franklin's "licks" are so incredible that they even spawned new pedals and knee levers to be able to do the lick. Countless recordings have the "licks" on them. It is soooo good, that it is becoming another "standard" change on our beloved instrument.

And the king of all "lick" players that has EVER EVER EVER lived is the late Pete Drake. NO player on the face of this earth was more talented in coming up with yet another "lick" that would "MAKE" that recording.

He spent his entire playing career coming up with another new "lick" that thrilled producers and singers alike. He was an absolute genious with that inate God given ability.

May Jesus rest his precious soul. May he bless all the above players, and ALL of you,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 03 November 2003 at 06:28 AM.]

Right now I'm disecting the Charlie Pride Live at Panther Hall record. So I will warn you now; if you happen to find yourself in one of the small rooms I may be playing in Dallas on some random night over the next month or so, you are going to hear A LOT of me trying to play Lloyd's parts from that record.

And sax players steal licks just as much as we do. Find any sax player worth their weight, and I bet you they have worn out several copies of the Charlie Parker Omnibook, (which is something I hope to accomplish some day. Right now I dont even feel worthy of reading the table of contents.)

[This message was edited by Todd Pertll on 03 November 2003 at 06:30 AM.]

I will also draw attention to the distinction between a SIGNATURE LICK and using LICKS to compose a solo. To me (and this is all just my opinion), a signature lick is part of the song, just like the melody.

Stringing licks together to create a solo is a milestone in a player's development, but NOT THE END OF THE ROAD. The next step is to abandon the licks and cliches (except where used appropriately, whatever that means to you) and learn the neck well enough to JUST PLAY. Sadly, many players don't ever explore that path.

I'm much more interested in 'conduits' from one pocket of notes to another. That unites positions on the fingerboard so that you are free to improvise both from lower to higher fret (and back), AND from lower to higher string (and back). When I watch Paul or Buddy, I'm most interested in how they get from the no pedals to A+B position in a solo or how they navigate between the pockets of scale tones on C6 and how to make that transition more musically interesting. The neck becomes one big playground of notes in any key.

Besides, the better the lick, the less often you can use it, with the best being suitable for single use only. "Oh, heard that already" is not my idea of a compliment.

That said, I would nonetheless be the first to admit that a stupendus array of licks can almost approach art.

This comes from the top down, from the very first. If there is a musical rhyme or reason for them at their inception, it is soon lost.

At best, they are whole tone, diminished, modal,minor or major scales.

At worst, and I can think of SEVERAL NOTABLE examples, the player just "plays two frets down" for a while, goes into the "two fingers, one pedal" pattern up to the next "two frets down" "pocket".

So are often embellishments on "melody lines" from coming out of "musical substitutions" going straight to memory as visual patterns.

Keyboard, horn, and GOOD guitar players think in terms of modes, scales, and substitutions MUCH more often. The former are "forced" into it being linear layout instruments. The latter, need a whole lot of catching up to, pure and simple.

From the top down. Pedal Steel Guitar players have gotten away with "Patterns and Pockets" for just a couple decades too long. Other instrumentalists seldom "call us on it" because of the sheer complexity of the instrument. I'll bet it HAS been done though, (seen it myself and they're interesting though subtle incidents). When I have, I seem to get away with telling them how tough it is to play steel...

Examples?

Not on your life .

Cetainly not on mine..')

Watch horn players "out riff" each other. Guitar players too. Throw a pedal steel in there and you'll hear Something Like This in answer to about half of them.

Are things changing? I hope so. I am certainly trying to broaden my playing base, and am dismayed when I can't get out of "Pockets" Strung together with Patterns". I don't at this point of a quarter century of playing successful gigs, know if I will or not. Maybe if I can learn some more patterns that the guitar players I work with won't recognize, and find new ways to fit them "over things" and work the "pockets" a little better..

Thanks to my fellow Norwegian, SveinungL.

Uff Då!

We were bound to get called on it sooner or later.

Eric Lundgren, three generations removed from the Old Country still longing for the smell of a smoking village..

[This message was edited by Eric West on 03 November 2003 at 09:08 AM.]

For me, a lick that stands out is John Hughey on the intro of Fifteen Years Ago.

Isn't it interesting how a single "lick" has almost defined a music genre (bluegrass). A bluegrass musician can skirt the edges of insanity on his ride and as long as he resolves it at the end with a "Lester Flatt G-run" - it's bluegrass!!

A 'lick" is just another name for an idea. Every great player has 'em...the trick is to learn to work off of them and change the notes and rhythms around. If you can play an idea, and develop it compositionally, it transcends lick spewage...

I have found lots of ideas in Django's playing that are developments of basic licks; the genius is in how they are developed.

As far as written music goes, only the pitches (and with steel tab, not even the rhythm, in most cases) can be basically represented. what's missing is feel, tone, groove, all the real elements of music. Still, for a newbie stumbler like me, that information alone (where to play what) is really great. I know enough to use my ears to try and get the other elements in there...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 03 November 2003 at 02:17 PM.]

I got the impression the where to play what was not about various aspects of the song, but more about improvising. I have no problem with writing out melody lines, etc. How else is one to learn them? You indeed have to start somewhere. But to do this for generic, all-purpose one size fits all, stick it anwhere you want mindless filler stuff I think is extremely counterproductive. So long at that is one's goal, he will never play much music, if any; and it will all sound the same. Disposable licks.

More and more, I am mindful of melody lines, and that has been the focus of my playing for some time now. It was extremely difficult at first to play melodies by ear, but in learning to do that you learn to play THE MUSIC THAT IS IN YOUR HEAD. And so long as you play the music in your head, you will not need licks,-in fact licks will get in the way and disrupt the flow of the music- and it will all sound different, because each song is different. Your style will carry you. That is how Django could play so much and it all be fresh. He was playing the music in his head.

I currely help out by playing rhythm guitar for the weekly get together of a group of local fiddlers and their teacher.(I also played rhythm guitar in a contra dance band for a decade, but it gave me the functional equivalent of a lobotomy, and I had to get away from it). They are not yet at the stage you speak of, but I hope they get there. I was starting fiddle, but decided not to spread myself too thin.

Probably everyone would agree that the thing really isn't to always avoid playing something you've played before. The thing that creates a problem is when certain structures are clung to in an unproductive way.

My experience has been that improvisation is best when it appears subjectively to the player to be happening in a seamless, effortless fashion: That is to say, there is nothing introduced into the present moment that overtly displays qualities belonging to some past moment, particularly in a way that suggests the clumsy interjection of something frozen and lifeless into an otherwise flowing experience.

What my subjective observations over the years have shown -- at least to my satisfaction -- is that my improvising unavoidably reproduces all of the mental attitudes and intentions with which I have previously practiced and dealt with musical tools and their development.

The nature of the attachment to, and degree of possessive honing of individual phrases and the like in practice, is inevitably reflected in future free playing.

While I refuse to rule out the learning and/or paractice of anything, I do however have one rule of thumb: to avoid in a moment-to-moment fashion the greed for musical tools. I treat musical ideas just like possessions, because that's exactly what they are.

Does that mean I'm not interested in learning new things, or that I don't have to gather appropriate provisions for the next practice or gig?

No.

But there are places at every turn where that innocent, joyful process can turn into a process of self-aggrandizement and possessive skill accumulation.

That's what I try to avoid, and the only way to do it is to become aware of the thoughts and emotions that accompany playing, practice, and everything else that is linked to music.

Of course, what isn't linked to music?

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 03 November 2003 at 10:17 PM.]

Trying the same thing on C6 in a closed position, or doing the standard "Michael Aaron" scale excersizes, omitting the second note going up a note each time was a REAL BITCH. I doubt if anybody does it as from the 9th string, it's a two fret move 2 out of 3 times going up or down.

In short, the Steel is not layed out that way.

Like I tell the mercifully few guitar players or horn players that riff me to shreds.

"It's a very difficult instrument to play."

Back to "Patterns and Pockets"

Now where did I put those Mike Smith tapes..

First I'm not talking about licks/themes that is a composed part of a song/solo. What I mean by overusing and focusing on licks, is falling into the same old pits and patterns when improvising. On many songs you could basicly play the same solo with small rhytmic variations, and I will try to avoid that.

I often catch myself playing the same things over and over when improvising. It might not be bad if there is a musical idea behind, but I must admit that it's just as often my hands that sets the limit.

Singing was mentioned here and I think that is a key to good improvitation. I wish I could play whatever I can sing/think. I dont often sing/think old overused licks, but my hands do..... and that's what I will try to avoid.

I'm not talking about practising, because to master an instrument one will have to do certain things (like playing licks) over and over.
The ideal playing/improvisation situation (for me that is) would be playing effortlessly great melodic lines bound together in a musical way without having the feel of jumping from lick to lick, even if I played a lick of two in there somewhere....

I heard a short solo by PF yesterday on a Terri Clark song (I just wanna be mad), and even though it contains licks you can't (at least I couldn't) tell where one ends and another begins. Its music from start to end, and that's great!

(Please excuse my naive foreign english language. I mainly speak Norwegian)

"I dont often sing/think old overused licks, but my hands do..... and that's what I will try to avoid."

Yes. It is so easy to hear other players overusing and wearing out those little stylistic fillers. It takes a special effort to seek them out and eliminate them from one's own playing, but I think it very important to weed them out. I'll admit I need to do better at it.

Another thing you touched on, what I call "disposable licks". If they can go into any song, they shouldn't. I don't think players strive to have everything they play sound the same, but all to often it does.

I could not agree more. Here is another one.

A great player for whatever reason hits on something either for the first time or maybe he has done it before. Then as he either goes into a world of his own OR he senses audience approval; he then obscures that precious moment by repeating that over and over lick until it becomse boring.

I know of NO place in all of musical genre' where the above scenario is more true than in the world of Jazz. I have heard it a million times by some of the best there is.

As much as I love Buddy's famous recording made at the 1977 ISGC there are times (NOT Buddy) where the fiddle player, and lead guitarists does this very thing. In a word, IMO they ocassionally go into a world no longer "in tune" with the audience and they go to never never land. As if they just left the universe and the rest of us are left behind instead of remaining an intregal part of their genious.

If I had but one word to say to them, "be cautious of this and avoid it like the plague" because as you say, (paraphrasing) we can destroy in a heartbeat everything we have achieved if we are not careful of what we do when we play.

I'm taking this to mean "don't use the same little phrases over and over and over again, because it sounds tacky." True indeed.

So, the Together Again thing might well be a "lick" but it seems like that's not the question here... but it does bring up what a guy from around here said to me a while ago "If you're going to be playing 'Stand By Your Man', you better have that little Pete Drake riff in there, or people will miss it." If it's a cover, and if the steel is on a very well known sting, on a "singalong" kind of a tune... you had best know what the original version sounded like, or you are making a choice to depart from it...