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Author
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Topic: Problem with Emmons Nut Rollers
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George Kimery
Member From: Limestone, TN, USA
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posted 15 November 2003 05:45 AM
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I am very happy with my recently acquired Emmons 74 PP 12 String, except for one annoying problem. The roller gauges (diameters?) are not true all the way across the guitar. I have to press down firmly, especially at the first fret to get the bar to make contact with all the strings. Strings 1, 2, 11, and 12 are fine. All the others either rattle or the bar doesn't touch them at all. I can play it, but I don't like having to press down firmly on the bar. If I ignore strings 11 and 12, the problem is still there with the normal 10, so it is not a 12 string problem. My Kline 12 string is perfect all the way across. The Emmons has a new set of SIT strings on it in the proper gauges. Is this an Emmons problem? The way I see it, here are my options: (1) Learn to live with it. (2) contact Emmons to see if they have gauged rollers that will fit it (3) find another brand of guitar that has gauged rollers that will interchange with the Emmons. (Unfortunately, my Kline will not) (4) Find somebody on the forum that has had the same problem and found a solution. (5) Move the rollers to different positions. Perhaps somebody has messed with it and got the rollers back in the wrong places. If that is the case, I would need the specs on each roller so that I could mic them to see what is supposed to go where. Before I do anything, I wanted to run it by you guys with all your vast knowledge and experience. Thanks for any suggestions. |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 15 November 2003 06:48 AM
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The problem you are experiencing is my number ONE pet peave on steel guitars. The problem has been with us since day one. More or less. I find it inconcievable that the manufacturers have allowed this serious problem to go uncured. Also, gauged rollers is not the answer. I have tried many sets. NOT one solved the problem. In all cases it simply traded the buzz from this string to that string. I have studied and researched it in depth. And I find the only really good remedy is to have infinitely adjustable (up and down) nut roller assy's. Having said this, I would at least try one set of gauged rollers from Emmons; IF they still provide them for a P/P. If not, you might wish to touch bases with Bobby Seymour and see if he had any suggestions. If you find a cure, now or in the future, please let me know, since I repeat; it is my number one pet peave on steel guitars. carl |
Peter
Member From: Cape Town, South Africa
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posted 15 November 2003 07:06 AM
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George, I think I remember that I read on the Forum, that at one stage, Emmons supplied "adjustable" rollers. They just made the hole in the rollers slightly off-center, so by rotating the roller slightly by hand, you could raise or lower the height. Just take a string off the roller and see what happens when you rotate a roller. If it goes up or down, you're in luck. I hope I remembered this correctly.  ------------------
Peter den Hartogh-Emmons 1978 S10 - Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa
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Peter
Member From: Cape Town, South Africa
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posted 15 November 2003 07:16 AM
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George, I had the same problem. I swapped the rollers around for the high strings and it was perfect. However, string 11 and 12 were still too high, so I measured the discrepancy. Then I put a small bolt an nut through the hole in the roller and stuck the bolt in the chuck of my electric drill. I held a small round file in the groove whilst spinning the drill. Easy, worked for me. Don't tell Bobbe Seymour this, he thinks this is cheating. [This message was edited by Peter on 15 November 2003 at 07:18 AM.] |
Jody Carver
Member From: The Knight Of Fender Tweed~ Dodger Blue Forever
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posted 15 November 2003 09:42 AM
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Mr.Dixon
You always have informative things to say and compliments to pay people.You are right regarding Bobbe,he knows his Emmons Steel guitars.  |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 15 November 2003 01:14 PM
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George, if you do a search on guaged or graduated nut rollers, you will find several posts on this problem over the years. Peter may have something regarding checking to see if you have some of the adjustable rollers Emmons made for a short while. My Emmons p/p 12-string has wider grooves in the rollers for strings 11 and 12. While this doesn't solve the problem perfectly, it is a huge improvement over my Fessy 12-string, on which all the rollers are identical.Like Carl I don't get why some manufacturers don't deal with this problem. It is worst on C6 necks or 12-strings. Some of the best makes, such as Zum, Mullen and MSA Millenium come standard with guaged rollers. I tried to collect measurements from as many makes as possible, to see if any were interchangeable. It seemed like the Zum axle and rollers would fit my Fessy, and the Zum manufacturer very kindly sent me some to try. But it turned out the Zum axle is slightly smaller and so it fits too loosely in the nut groove of the Fessy. I'm going to try Peter's trick with the electric drill if I can ever find where my teenage son left my dang drill. Some day I will order a new S12U, and you can be sure it will have guaged rollers. |
Brian Edwards
Member From: Downers Grove, Illinois, USA
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posted 15 November 2003 04:23 PM
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They remind me of the saddles on the older Gretsch guitars. |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 16 November 2003 09:39 AM
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The new Emmons website offers guaged rollers for E9th or C6th.
I've been thinking about getting a set of C6th guaged rollers to try on my 12 string push-pull.
The axle looks to be the same size (I'll have to call Emmons to confirm that).
All in all, I play alot on the first fret using stings 6-12, and I don't have much problem with string buzz, but am always looking for something better.Look at Part "D". http://emmonsguitar.com/cgi-bin/em/shop.cgi?page=page5.html&cart_id=1746573_21058 [This message was edited by Pete Burak on 16 November 2003 at 09:40 AM.] |
Ernie Renn
Member From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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posted 16 November 2003 09:54 AM
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Try this a few times: pull the string out of the roller and turn it a quarter turn. I believe the Emmons rollers are gauged. They do have a tendancy to roll around causing the troubled spot to resurface from time to time. I have an occasional buzz from the 6th string on the C6 neck. Normally turning it will take care of the buzz. Good luck!------------------
My best,
Ernie
www.buddyemmons.com
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Bob Cox
Member From: Portsmouth,Ohio USA
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posted 16 November 2003 10:58 AM
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I diddn't know this ,Ive have been giving mine a spin when I oil them from time to time ,they are probably rolled in all kinda crazy spots. |
Larry Hamilton
Member From: Amarillo, Texas, USA
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posted 17 November 2003 02:55 PM
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George, As far as string height goes< I don't know, but scroll on down to the topic
of "string buzz", Oct.25,2003. This may help a little. I tried it and it sure did help a great deal.. These folks on the forum are a wealth of information.
Keep pickin', Larry |
George Kimery
Member From: Limestone, TN, USA
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posted 17 November 2003 08:54 PM
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As always, thanks for the information. Looking up the stuff in previous posts was really helpful. I have been in contact with Emmons and they have a set of 12 string gauged rollersthat will fit my PP, so I am going to start there. I hope I have better luck than Carl! Gotta start somewhere, so at this point, I am willing to gamble. |
Bobby Boggs
Member From: Pendleton SC
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posted 17 November 2003 09:48 PM
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I love Emmons guitars.But they have the worst roller nuts of all the guitars I've owned.And I've owned most everything except the new MSA. My Fessenden had the best roller nuts and Carter's seem to have good rollers......bb
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Bob Mainwaring
Member From: Qualicum Beach Vancouver Island B.C. Canada
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posted 17 November 2003 11:59 PM
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Hi George,
Sorry for sticking my "oar" in here as I'm not sure if the Emmons have a turned groove in the middle in each of the rollers.
What I ended up doing on both my Z.Bs was to "caliper" measure the actual roller groove and line them up accordingly with the string diameter starting with 3,1 and 2 etc.Bob Mainwaring. |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 18 November 2003 09:24 AM
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mega dittos Bobby Boggs. As some of you know I will state without hesitation any guitars' pros AND cons. And nut rollers on any Emmons I have seen, is NOT one of their pros. I love the Emmons LeGrandes. If I was purchasing a new guitar tomorrow it would be a LeGrande III. But I would KNOW before hand it would come with the problem. NO matter what was said or requested. In a word, it is my firm belief still, that the manufacturers "just don't get it" when it comes to the problem of string buzz or rattle at the first few frets. Secondly, the thing that perplexes me; is there is a widely held belief that the problem of nut rollers not achieving 100% sring flatness at the nut, is easily achieved; does not stand the test when getting so-called gauged rollers; or "any machine shop can make them easily", etc. My experience is pitifally bad in this area. On all my Emmons', Sierra and Excel PSG's, I specifically covered this dilemma in depth, prior to each sale. Although I was assured the nut rollers would be maticulously gauged, the end result was still the same. Further, upon getting replacement "gauged" sets, nothing changed. IE, the problem still existed. This is why, I maintain the ONLY real answer is to have infinitely, and individually adjustable nut assemblies; so the player can 100% correct the problem easily with the twist of a screw. carl |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 18 November 2003 09:47 AM
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Fessenden nut rollers are nice, but they are all identical and are not guaged.This problem seems worst on unis. E9 and extended E9 have smaller guages on bottom than C6 and Unis. The string guage does not increase linearly, but seemingly exponentially, so the last string on C6 and unis is way taller than the others. Unis get the worst of it, because the 1st fret is C#6 on a C neck, not a commonly used position. But on a uni that is the F fret, the Bb fret (with AB pedals), or the C6 fret (in B6 mode), all heavily used positions, and that doesn't even get into minors and other chords. I agree with Carl that it is not trivial to get the rollers guaged perfectly. Nevertheless, it would be trivial (for a manufacturer) to get them 90% better than they are if they are completely unguaged. This is inexcusable on instruments that cost 3 to 6 thousand dollars. While adjustable nut rollers would be a nice touch, one wonders if a complicated mechanism there might adversely affect tone. |
George Kimery
Member From: Limestone, TN, USA
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posted 18 November 2003 02:11 PM
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Well, I ordered the Emmons gauged rollers today. May be a total waste of time and money, but only time will tell. Joe Kline seemed to have the problem solved. My Kline 12 string seems to be dead flat across. Of course Joe was a genius machinest. I am with you Carl, if I was making a guitar, they would come with the strings flat across or I just wouldn't put out the guitar until I had that problem solved. It is so basic that when you use a steel bar, the strings should lay flat against the bar all the way across. I would probably have to state that it is only flat with the string gauges that I would use though. Any change in string gauges would mess up everything, unless the rollers were adjustable as you suggest. I can live with what I have got if the gauged rollers aren't any better. I will post the results in a couple of weeks after I get the new rollers and new strings installed. I just hate having to push down harder when I get on the first fret and I shouldn't have to. I like that fret a lot and love playing in F. David has a good point....some fancy adjustable roller system could affect the tone adversely, but then again, maybe it would make it better. |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 18 November 2003 02:30 PM
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Indeed. But one thing is for sure, string buzz and rattles definitely hurt the tone! So to me, tis best to see if it can be cured and then weigh the difference. If by chance it hurts the tone why then of course it might be best to live with the rattles etc. On the other hand if it did not hurt the tone, or if it made it better, then what a glorious day. Praise Jesus, carl |
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