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Author
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Topic: Why the Sudden Interest in Fender Pedal Steels?
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basilh
Member From: United Kingdom
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posted 22 February 2004 04:16 AM
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Here's the workaround to allow double flattening or sharpening on a "1000"
NOT cables on the knee lever just rods with loops and the old Sho-Bud halfstop barrell. 
and
 Baz
www.waikiki-islanders.com ------------------
quote:
Steel players do it without fretting
http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
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b0b
Sysop From: Cloverdale, California, USA
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posted 22 February 2004 09:53 AM
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quote:
Are we clogging up b0b's fine forum w/our excessive jpegabites?
The pictures aren't hosted on the Forum server, so they don't affect the Forum's bandwidth. The JPEG bytes go directly from the server that hosts them to your computer. (Well, not really directly, because everything bounces around on the net, but the packets containing the image bytes don't ever touch the Forum's router unless, of course, I am viewing them at Forum central, in which case the upload bandwidth is affected a wee bit (actually bits don't vary in size, so a 'wee bit' is a bit of a misnomer), but you shouldn't have to worry about that.)------------------
 Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 22 February 2004 10:16 AM
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HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 22 February 2004 10:20 AM
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C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 22 February 2004 10:21 AM
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Howard,I would like to commend whoever did the work on the guitar pictured. Superb workmanship and adaptablility. I have seen sooooo many where the work was less than satisfactory. I would buy this guitar in a new york minute if I was looking for an old Fender cable model and it was for sale. Again I applaud this workmanship. May Jesus richly bless him for his dedication and conscientious work. HE said, "Be ye therefore perfect....". Of course he knew full well none of us would ever achieve perfection. But whenever any one tries, I am sure it pleases him. This guitar represents that totally, IMO. Thanks Howard for posting the great photos. carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 22 February 2004 at 01:36 PM.] |
HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 22 February 2004 10:23 AM
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Neither rain, nor sleet, nor snow,(well maybe Britney) shall prevent the postman from making his appointed rounds... 
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HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 22 February 2004 10:33 AM
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Carl, your graciousness is always well appreciated.The credit goes to Michael Johnstone. I'm just Igor to Doctor Fenderstone... Included with the photos that were sent to me, was a detailed description of the work involved. If Michael wants to post that, or gives me the ok to post it I will. It is fascinating, innovative, and extremely informative[This message was edited by HowardR on 22 February 2004 at 10:45 AM.] |
Fred Shannon
Member From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas
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posted 22 February 2004 10:38 AM
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Mike J. also sent me a set of pics of this machine and the work is meticulous. BTW most of this work, according to Mike, was done by hand and a few power tools. Cardboard type templates, and much trial and error were used also... What a mechanic? Thanks Mike J.fred ------------------
The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real
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HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 22 February 2004 10:51 AM
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quote:
What a mechanic?
No....What a mechanic! |
Fred Shannon
Member From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas
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posted 22 February 2004 10:55 AM
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Howard, my oops, I meant to imply that not only was Mike a mechanic, but engineer, and manufacturer also. Fug me.  fred ------------------
The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real
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HowardR
Member From: N.Y.C.,N.Y.
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posted 22 February 2004 11:08 AM
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.[This message was edited by HowardR on 22 February 2004 at 11:14 AM.] |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 22 February 2004 01:41 PM
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Howard or Michael?I have studied one of the close up photos (page 2) of the RKR knee levers. And try as I may, it appears that the closest (to the player) RKR knee lever won't work. I am sure it does, but it looks like it loosens the cable instead of pulling it (to my eyes) when it is engaged. What am I missing? carl |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 22 February 2004 01:44 PM
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OOps just answered my own question. I was NOT looking at RKR, it was RKL. What I thought was RKL was actually LKR. I see it perfectly now. Sorry bout that. Still a terrific Job Michael. Ya don good kid. carl |
Michael Johnstone
Member From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
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posted 22 February 2004 02:11 PM
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Here Ya Go
Yeah thanks Carl and everybody for the compliments and for my honorary engineering and machinist's degree. But to be perfectly honest,all I had was a fantasy of a guitar Fender could/should have made,and a desire to make it happen - nothing more than that. I just hacked each piece out by hand w/a hack saw,vise,electric
hand drill and a set of about 20 different size hand files. I do have an old
antique drill press that's maybe 75 years old and has a max speed of maybe 250 rpm and and besides using it to
drill some of the various holes, I put a cloth buffing wheel on it and
buffed out each piece w/polishing compound. I also used a hand tap and die
set to tap threads in the parts that needed it - mostly (8-32, 10-32 and
1/4-20).I went down to an industrial metal supplier and just looked thru the
available sizes of 6061-T6 and 7075 extrusion and bought a piece for the main rail and a bunch of
bar stock that looked like knee levers - all for about $50. Then I went
down to the Burbank airport area where there's dozens of aircraft and
military surplus joints and snagged a bunch of 8-32 and 10-32 buttonhead and
barrelhead inside hex bolts,locking nuts,delrin washers,other brass and
aluminum airplane parts that looked like they could be used for spacers or
standoffs as well 1/4 - 20 sholder bolts for mounting the levers and other
parts to the main rail.The fitting on the knee lever assembly that grips the
cable is off of a bicycle brake mechanism and I bought a bag of a dozen of
those parts for $10 at a bicycle shop. Meanwhile I put out the word in the
Forum,all my steel playing friends all over the country as well as every
known steel guitar repair and restoration shop from Bobbe Seymor on down the line
who might remotely know of any stock Fender cable yoke assemblies and
pulleys laying around. Then I just went home and started experimenting by
making knee levers and other parts out of cardboard and tacking them to a pi
ece of wood w/thumbtacks for pivots and paperclips for pushrods till I came
up with linkages,angles and shapes that based on the physics and throws of
the existing pedals on the guitar,I thought would give me the travel
necessary,etc before fabricating the parts out of aluminum. Even then there
was a lot of parts that didn't quite work out in real life. However,the reversing RKL with the variable fulcrum roller bearing & 1/2 stop ended up working great and actually works better the the 1/2 stop on my Excel(which I love)and I was most pleased w/that. I started to get
a few Fender parts thru the mail from some guys I knew - some for free and
some I had to pay thru the nose for. At the end of the day after I had
milked dry every concievable source for Fender parts and had used up my
three wishes with all my friends and aquaintances worldwide,I still had to
make some of that stuff from scratch which involved purchasing miniature
pulleys, roller bearings, brass tubing and piano wire from a hobby shop and
a few yards of cable and a butane blow torch rig(w/accessories) from Home
Depot for $60. I burned the $h!+ out of myself,my pants and my workbench numerous
times in the process of aquiring blowtorch skills - which I had never messed
with before,BTW. After I got the running gear working,I had Jason Lollar make me a pair of 10 string Stringmaster type pickups w/blender and my buddy Chas Smith(who IS a machinist w/a machine shop)did the installation including milling an additional cavity for
the new pickups plus designing,cutting out and chroming an add-on plate to fit into
the existing bridge plate structure.The tone pot was replaced by the blender pot. The mute and cover were missing from the
guitar when I took possession of it - I wouldn't mind having it but they
kind of just get in the way anyhow. I originally had the brilliant idea that once I perfected
the thing,I would offer a pre-made rail with 4 knee levers mounted on it and
sell a million of 'em for a reasonable price. What I found is that only
about 4 guys in the whole world still play those cable Fenders and 2 of 'em
already have knee levers on there - maybe not as fancy but just as functional. Never mind that I would have to charge
$500 > $1000 just either for my labor or farming it out to a machine shop
for about the same amount.The other thing is,to do it right I would have to
have the guitar itself in my shop for a couple weeks to install the thing
because of tricky custom installation issues and things like the way the
cables have to be tensioned. The whole thing took me all summer to get
together. Like I said,the difficult part and the part most out of my
control was getting the Fender parts. But if you have fairly advanced hand
tool and shop skills,a background in hobbies and crafts & mechanical problem solving,a lot of friends w/Fender parts,a lot of time,a
fair amount of money and a lot of patience - and you don't mind getting a
lot of nicks, cuts and burns all over your hands,go for it. Oh yeah - and you have to have a classic Fender guitar you're willing to poke a few holes in. PS. - A couple of tips: I never could get the levers that lower strings to have anything but
a real long throw and it was nothing to do with my design - it has to do
with the lowering mechanism in the changer. I tried gearing up the lever w/a
large pulley and deeper fulcrum pionts but it made the lever too stiff. I
finally found a happy medium which is playable but still ridiculous compared
to modern standards.
And also when drilling and especially tapping threads into the Fender
frame go slowly and be carefull because the thing is cast out of an alloy
called Almag which is quite brittle and is easy to strip out threads as
you"re trying to tap them.
This may not come up for you but on a couple of the bellcrank lookin'
gizmos on my guitar there are deep slots cut into the edges to accommidate
roller bearings and pushrod excursions. These slots were cut by bolting 3 or
4 hacksaw blades together with tiny bolts and wrapping duct tape around one
end for a handle and then carefully cutting the slot while the part is in
the vise.Cut the slot first before any other detail work on the part - in
case you screw it up and have to start over,you will have not wasted quite
as much time and effort. Also,cut the slot a bit narrower than you want and
then open it up to its final size w/flat jewelers files and emory cloth
glued to popcicle sticks - that way it will have less ragged internal
surfaces.
When putting parts in a vise for drilling or filing they tend to
get marred by the vise jaws so I take one of those fake chamios cloths you
get at Pep Boys to dry your car with and I cut it up into 3" or 4" squares
and wrap the part so as to pad the vise jaws but still be able to get to the
section I want to file, drill or whatever.
-MJ-. |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 22 February 2004 02:28 PM
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MJ, I'm worn out just reading what YOU did!  Looks great, though.------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association |
Brendan Mitchell
Member From: Melbourne Australia
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posted 23 February 2004 02:57 AM
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Is there a sudden interest in Fender pedal steels?
Brendan |
Jussi Huhtakangas
Member From: Helsinki, Finland
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posted 23 February 2004 03:33 AM
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Well, this topic is three pages now, seems to me there is an interest |
Fred Glave
Member From: McHenry, Illinois, USA
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posted 23 February 2004 07:20 PM
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So I guess now we can all agree that we love old Fenders, right? |
Rick Collins
Member From: Claremont , CA USA
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posted 23 February 2004 09:54 PM
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quote:
So I guess now we can all agree that we love old Fenders, right?
...just like the '57 Chevy. There are better cars today; but who would not like to have a tropical turquoise one, with a white top and wide white walls? Rick |
Fred Glave
Member From: McHenry, Illinois, USA
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posted 26 February 2004 07:02 PM
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As much as I love my old 2000, it freaks me out to think that if something breaks, and needs replacement, I may be out of a guitar for awhile before I "invent" a solution. Right now I've got to take my changers off and clean them. I have some strings not returning to tune after release, others are slipping..not changing, and I've got to get to the bottom of it. I may have to repair, adjust, or replace a couple of springs. Right now, I don't know where to go or what I'll do if I have to replace springs. I guess the hardware store. Even if the problem is simple, I'll still be out for awhile because I'll work slow learning how to do this as I go. |
chas smith
Member From: Encino, CA, USA
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posted 26 February 2004 09:18 PM
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Fred, the changer just lifts right out. It might just need a good cleaning and lube. If it's worn, it could be where the "throat" of the finger rotates on the cover plate and that could be a problem.Springs and things can be found at McMaster-Carr.
www.mcmaster.com [This message was edited by chas smith on 26 February 2004 at 09:21 PM.] |
Fred Glave
Member From: McHenry, Illinois, USA
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posted 27 February 2004 06:50 AM
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Charles, thanks for your advise and tip. I'm going to move slowly on this project to avoid a screw-up made in haste. Please check this topic from time to time, because I'll probably encounter some problems, or have questions! Or maybe I'll just start a brand new Fender topic regarding this. That's what everyone wants anyways,..right? 
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Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 03 March 2004 07:17 PM
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I just received a dead-mint 1969-70 Fender 1000. My experience with these guitars is that the lowers are always stiff, due to the use of too-tight return springs.I replaced the lower return springs on the strings I change on C6 (strings 5 and 6) with softer springs just tight enough to bring the changer finger back to its original position. The guitar now plays like a dream and is totally Mooney-ed out!! And I dig the 23" scale, too! ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association |
Eric West
Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 03 March 2004 09:31 PM
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Brendan.Not that I've noticed up here. EJL |
Fred Glave
Member From: McHenry, Illinois, USA
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posted 04 March 2004 07:56 PM
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Herb, I'm hoping for similar reslults for my 2000. Where did you get your springs? Was it tough installing them? My changers aren't returning to tone after release of pedal. I'll clean them good and lube them, but it may be as spring problem. |
Herb Steiner
Member From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX
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posted 04 March 2004 09:00 PM
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Fred
The changer on a 2000 is a different animal than the changer on a 1000. But if your lowers are too stiff, lighter springs are the answer. I've done this job to 4 Fender pedal guitars of different vintages and all operations were successful, and no patients died.The lower return springs on a 1000 of the vintage I mentioned are 3 1/4" in length. I went to my local Ace Hardware and purchased a couple springs the same length but with thinner, softer wire. They were #43 on their spring board. Ninety-eight cents each. I then had to cut approximately 1/2" off one end and rebend the hook. Worked like a charm. All you need to change are the springs of strings that are lowered. All other changes should be smooth with the springs from the factory. If you guitar is old and your changers are gummy, you need to disassemble the changers and soak in some sort of solvent. I used paint thinner in a shallow dish. The wash the parts and blow them out with the air hose. Then re-lube the changers and reassemble in the guitar. The lowers will still be stiff, but at least you'll have a clean changer. Then replace the necessary springs. It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it... and I'm not joking. Well, just a little, maybe. ------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association [This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 04 March 2004 at 09:04 PM.]
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Fred Glave
Member From: McHenry, Illinois, USA
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posted 05 March 2004 05:21 PM
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Thanks Herb, I'm soaking the changers now in alcohol. I'll check them tommorow to see if they've been cleaned. But do you think that if the changer is just reluctant to return to position after pedal release, the spring is too tight? I can push it back into place with my index finger. It's my third string on the E9 neck, so these would be raises.  |
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